Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters H414 discontinued 😡

The WLR will work pretty well with Big Game as a "magnum primer" substitute, especially with smaller cartridges, say under .30-06. Have almost always seen a big difference in accuracy with the CCI 200 (and Federal 210), but it also depends on load density. The primer doesn't matter quite as much in a moderately compressed load.

But overall, I just go ahead and use magnum primers with Big Game, and have ever since it first appeared, when F215s cut the diameter of groups more than half in the .220 Swift. The last load I "worked up" with Big Game was with 140-grain Barnes TTSX's in my present 7mm-08, a lightweight semi-custom rifle on a tang-safety Ruger 77 action. Used 215s and 46.0 grains, and it grouped around .7 inch. It might have with CCI 200s or F210s too, but after 20 years of using Big Game I doubt it.

What do you have against magnum primers?

JB, I had to laugh at your question. I don't have anything against magnum primers but recently used up all my Winchester WLRs (old stock) and bought CCI 200s. I have a small supply of WLRMs and a couple hundred old CCI 250s. When they are gone, I'd like to keep it simple and just use CCI 200s. Right now, I'm using the WLRMs with the last of my H414. When it is gone, I intend to stick to powders that CCI 200s will light properly, Varget, H4350, IMR 4451, TAC. BTW it was on your advice that I switched to CCI 100s! I was afraid of Winchesters after all the piercing issues with some of the newer ones anyway. I had no problems with my 25 or so year old stash.

Hmmm. Standard CF thread. It veered off course!

I use Win primers almost exclusively. I did get a great buy on S and B primers a few years ago. They worked just fine, but I am just about out of them. CCI mag primers when I am trying variations on a theme.

I hope no one has abandoned Win primers because of a former bump in the road. Winchester has the bad lot no lists which you can get anytime.

Have found TAC to also sometimes respond better to magnum primers. It depends on the application. Any spherical powder can, though it's more common with slower powders. The burn rate in sphericals is not controlled by granule size, as it partly is in many extruded powders, because sphericals all have very small granules. Instead it's controlled by "coatings," which actually don't just coat the granules but infuse them them with a burn deterrent. (Many extruded powders feature such coatings these days, the reason we have smaller-granule, slow-burning extruded powders, such as the "short cuts.") This is why hotter primers tend to work better with spherical powders: They ignite the powder more consistently despite the deterrent coatings.

That said, it also depends on how much accuracy you want or "need." If you're hunting big game at "normal" ranges, say out to 300 yards, groups averaging 1-1/2 inches at 100 yards work fine. Thus the potential halving of group size with magnum primers is irrelevant.

But what I have found (and mentioned before here and there) is that the average handloading deer hunter is not just interested in actually killing deer, but how small his groups are compared to those of his handloader buddies. This is due to most handloading deer hunters spending far more time in their loading room and at the range than actually hunting. Thus the modern conviction that "half-minute" groups are necessary to kill a deer at 100 yards, much less 300.

But that's also why I write about how to handload for finer accuracy: That's what most readers want--along with higher velocity and a bunch of other stuff that also doesn't have all that much to do with killing deer, at least for 99% of us.

That has been my observation as well. Regardless of the cartridge or action type, the overwhelming concern most guys have is to own an accurate rifle that shoots under an inch.

Many years ago, when Re 15 and Varget first came out, I was testing them in my 303 and 308 rifles. They were far and away better than the 4895s, IMR4350, 4064 and 4320 with 150 to 180 gr bullets. Just prior to the release of Shooting and Reloading the 303 British, I said that most reloaders will find Re 15 and Varget are better performers. The old guard (the competition crowd) laughed at me. Acquaintances at the club brushed me off by saying, "Yeah, I'll have to try that some time..."

Then the magazines started featuring articles that showed how much better these powders were for most applications. As a result, hunters and shooters switched to these in F Class, milsurp matches and for hunting. I won several shoots with Re 15 powder, but I must have been lucky and the other shooters had an off week. :}

My point? People don't like to experiment and are slow to change. Hunters seem to think that they need sub MOA rifles and cartridges. It's laughable when you consider that few shoot beyond 200 yards. LR shooters excepted of course, but they are a minority.

Competition shooters are always tinkering, but the older ones are often loathe to try something new unless someone they trust has tried it and gives it the thumbs up.

Geez, I hope I don't turn into one of them!

Drat!

Picked up a .338-06 AI and H414 is the best by far in velocity and accuracy. Was sitting on the shelf gathering dust and tried it on a whim.

Well, off the the LGS to scarf up an 8 pounder.

Yeah, I kinda did, though they certainly treated me fairly. I was put off a bit because they didn’t put out the lot numbers so retailers could take them off the shelves too. Mainly, I bought a bunch of other brands and will likely only need to buy a limited number of LRs in the future. The list you mention is probably not needed after so much time has passed, but is also of no use when buying online.

Actually, the Winny primer whoopsie is why I now have plenty of primers of all types during this crunch.

My opinion is based solely on Hodgdon's data. Having said that there are a few that claim some minor differences such as coatings. Also, I have both in my cabinet and use them interchangeably.
Everywhere one looks at the Hodgdon data, if he sees data for one the identical same data is posted for the other. As far as I'm concerned, this is proof that the powders are identical to each other.

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No worries.

I have a line on some S&B primers. I haven't bothered with keeping too many brands here. It reduces the possibility that I might use a brand other than what I worked up.

WRT H414, there are plenty of "close enoughs" around these days. I am glad that we have so many choices. Except for competition loading, I only keep testing if I am having difficulty getting a cartridge or bullet to settle in around an inch or an inch and a half. Or if a new powder hits the shelves.

I have found the S&B large rifle primers to perform just about exactly like Federal 210s.

Bought 1000 during the last "primer panic," and that's what I found during various trials.

Have been through several primer panics since the Clinton one in 1994, when the rumors said "new" primers would expire ("go dud") within six months--which is why some people started burying primers inside PVC pipes. Have a few primers made back then (and even earlier) and they still go bang.

Just found a 8lb jug.

At least my 7x57 will be happy for the rest of my life.

It also works good in the 458 SOCOM.

Mr. Mule Deer, I've read your articles for 25yrs at least. You're a great gunwriter and I've learned a lot.

I'd never tried Ramshot powders. And the only place I hear about them is from you. Do you have some sort of deal with them? Or, are they just really great powders?

I have found that H414/760 will tell you pretty suddenly when they think that you have gone far enough.

John, I have only used S&B SR and SP primers.

I used to buy whatever was on sale, but learned to stick to what worked, except....

I occasionally buy 100 primers other than my usual, to try them. Usually, when on sale. So far, with the exception of S&B SR primers, I have seen no reason to change.

But it's always fun to try and see if will work better.

I remember when the competition crowd chased a specific powder, down to duplicate lot nos, if possible. I never was that dedicated.

Thanks very much, but if "the only place I hear about them [Ramshot powders} is from you" then you haven't read much.

I don't have "some sort of deal with them." I am just one of a few gunwriters who was invited to Miles City, Montana, to "field test" the first few Ramshot powders on a prairie dog shoot 20 years ago. They worked so consistently, despite temperatures varying from around 40 to 90, that I also tested them at temperatures down to zero the following winter (by actually shooting at zero degrees, not just freezing the ammo) and they proved to be very consistent--and accurate. So I started writing about them--and also started using them for a lot of my hunting.

Dunno why other writers don't mention them much.

I have used H414 in 22-250 , .270 Win, 30-06, and .243 Win. I got a bunch for 7 bucks a lb 25 yrs ago at Gander Mountain. Then I got some military surplus that sais use as H414. It may be H414 or not, I dont know. I like the way it meters and never had a problem with it.

Try playing with H 380 then.... its a great performer in the 338/06...

I was a big H 414 fan, but in the 338/06, I got both even better accuracy and velocity out of H 380..
and H 380 is still available on a lot of the local shelves, while they are sold out on about everything else..

I love 2015 in the 223 & 22.250... and there is plenty of that available it seems also..

just bought 16 pounds of it in two 8 pound jugs..

I'll continue to use H 414.. it will just come in a container marked 760 or 2700....

dat's the way I look at it..

they'd just better leave W 748 alone....

JD,
First let me say that I am not a writer, but I am a shooter and a reloader. I’ve been reloading for 40 some years and have tried many different powders. And yes, the Ramshot powders are what I use the most in my reloading. I use TAC exclusively for my 223 and use Big Game exclusively in both of my 7mm-08’s. If you hang out in the Hunting Rifles forum or in the reloading section’s Big Game Rifles, you will see that Western Powder’s Ramshot line is a very popular product.

John, can you expand on this statement, please?