Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 300 Savage vs the 30-06 Springfield

As you all know Savage made claims to its new round equaling the 30-06 Springfield in performance when it was brought out after WWI. For sake of discussion, does anyone know what the original muzzle velocity was of the round and how that compared with the 06 in it's WWI configuration. I know the latter was stoked to about 2700-fps with a 150-grain pill for the Garand in WWII, but I don't think those specs held true for the Great War. So how close were the two in performance when the 300 was brought out and how far did they drift apart with the advent of more modern powders?

October 1921 ad introducing the 300 Savage:

150gr at 2700fps.

2700fps was the standard 150gr ball load for gov't ammo from 1906 through the modern era, even after they dropped the ill-starred M1 Ball load and adopted the M2 Ball load right before WWII (which was nothing more than the old WWI load but with a gilding metal jacket instead of cupro- nickel.

Did the original .300 loading truly generate 2700fps? If so, pressures had to have been high given the smaller case capacity compared to the Caliber .30 Ball, Model 1906 😊 case and the powders of the day. (Which were all what we would call fast to medium burn rate compared the wonderful selection we enjoy today.)

It doesn't seem complicated, but maybe it is. Smaller case can't equal a bigger case, when talking pure physics. Now wives, that's a different story!

So if it was 2700-fps then Savage's claim wasn't a bunch of advertising hyperbole? That is assuming that the service round was clocking out at the same speed and bullet weight. I always thought the general consensus was that Savage dipped its toe into the pool of marketing with this one when the round was introduced. Interesting reading the new round as described - a necked up 250. Implying the quarter bore was the parent round. That helps square up the 300's historical context.

Anyone know the powders that were used in the two rounds circa-1920? That would address questions and limitations on pressure with the technology they had at that time.

I suspect real world .300 velocities were more like 25-2600fps. Advertising claims notwithstanding. Anybody have some old 1920-era .300 ammo to shoot and chronograph?

They continuously said it was 2700fps for a long time.

Catalog #62 in 1922
Catalog #63 thru 1927
Catalog #68 in 1934
In Catalog #73 in 1939 they lowered it to 2660fps.

Nothing that's available today. I could look up the powder used for gov't ammo, I don't remember off the top of my head.

As Gary said, it would be interesting sacrificing a hand full of original 300 rounds to the modern chronograph.

Could you guarantee that their velocity at 100 years old is the same as it was when they were new?

No, but it would constitute the best observation we could make. And if a whole box was tested odds are the results could land in the ballpark. My biggest concern would be with neck splits. Back in the 90s I bought a 99F in 303 and because trying to find fodder for that gun was a real crap shoot back then I went around to every table at gun shows and bought all the ammo I could find. And I ended up with a fair amount of case splits with old Remington ammo, but still experienced a respectable number successful firings. If I was to do this today I might be inclined to pull the bullets, dump the powder and anneal the cases before reloading.

Perhaps side by side testing of .30 gov't ammo of the same vintage?

Kool thread!

It's a fallacy that the original ball 150 grain load for the 30-06 had a muzzle velocity of 2700fps. The military didn't measure velocity at muzzle. They measured it at 78 feet. The velocity at 78 feet was spec'ed at 2700fps. The actual muzzle velocity was closer to 2780. The 300 Savage was never going to get to that number in a sporter-length barrel.

"Perhaps side by side testing of .30 gov't ammo of the same vintage?"

That would somewhat level the playing field for a low budget, low tech practical experiment such as this.

And that gets back to the question. What was the difference?

Townsend Whelen's "The American Rifle", printed in 1918 gives a muzzle velocity for the '30 Gov't Model 1906" with 150gr bullet as 2700fps. Velocity at 100 yards as 2,465fps.

180gr was 2,509fps muzzle, 2,290fps at 100yds.

I'd consider Mr. Whalen a creditable source. So the 06 with a 150-grain bullet can be identified as a 2700-fps round in 1918. Was Savage's claim for the 300 accurate at 2700 or close enough to make little difference?

What type of "chronograph" would have been used ~1900-1920 ? What was its accuracy = 1%, 5%, 10%, ??

List of thing to NOT talk about;
1) politics
2) religion
3) projectile speed
4)...