Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Luna Canyon Outdoor Adventure Chacón NM Elk Hunt 11/2-11/6

The owner was conveniently out of town but this is a synopsis of the trip and what I sent him in text

I hate long posts and this is one of them. Sorry for rambling and sorry if it is whiny....this has been a hard pill to swallow


Extremely disappointed.


First 2 days were with a guide that has never been on the land. Never saw an elk. Never heard and elk. I enjoyed the guide but we were at a steep disadvantage.

Days 1 and 2

Mornings consisted of walking and trying to bump/spook elk out of cover to maybe possibly get a shot.
Evenings were sitting in stand overlooking meadows that had zero sign of recent activity....according to the guides.
In the evenings, all three of us hunters sat by ourselves....no guide.

The only elk that was shot by one of the other two hunters from a public road(this is the exact story from the hunter and his guide) when the herd almost ran over the truck. The elk.....according to them was on private land they had permission to hunt. These were the only elk seen by that hunter. He was even allowed to continue hunting after wounding that bull. even though the contract stated that would conclude the hunt. Where those elk were seen, no one ever hunted that area again.

I can’t shake the feeling that Scott Huggins hunters were given priority over my hunt. Admittedly, i have no direct evidence of this but I trust my instincts. My guide would tell me the plan and then the main guide would change plans. I got the guide with no experience on the property. Day 4 evening the other guide took his two hunters to the top of the mountain.....and I was stuck hunting one of the same meadows with no activity.

Day 3 with Antonio, finally saw 2 cow elk because we walked into them on the way back to the truck after walking several miles. He really tried to talk me into shooting a cow but this is/was my once in a lifetime hunt. My wife and I are both in public education so $5,000+ is big money to us. At the time, I didn’t understand he knew this might be the only elk we would see.

Day 4....no elk. More of the same....walk and try to spook. Then sat on a meadow I had already sat on . Told Antonio I was thinking of throwing in the towel and his reply was, “I don’t blame you”

When I booked I was told we would spot and stalk in the mornings but what we actually did was try to walk...bump...and gun. I am confident to 500yds and can stretch it further but the only elk I saw was running at 30yds and one standing still at 40yds. Both were cows.

One of the other hunters here never saw an elk except for driving in the dark and they saw 3 bulls on other property.

I understand you are on a deer hunt in Kansas and then Ohio. Imagine if your guide had never been on the land you are hunting. Then the plan for your hunt was to walk around trying to spook deer to then get a shot as they run away in thick cover. Then imagine if in 4 days you had only accidentally bumped into 2 does and there were 2 other hunters there that one saw 0 deer and the other only saw a buck because they almost ran over it on a public road.

There were some red flags that I ignored in the excitement of booking a hunt. I asked multiple times for pics of kills this year and never got any. I asked multiple times if y’all were seeing some good elk before my hunt and never got an answer. I told myself that this hunt was discounted because of Covid 19 but now I think there are more reasons for the discount.

So according to the the owner the elk haven’t moved down because there was no snow but then in the same breath he says they were there last week. I asked how he conducts hunts in Sept and October if he is reliant on elk moving down....I got no reply.

Before I booked the hunt, I asked what would happen in the case of a bad hunt....exactly like the above....he said Monday the past he has rebooked at a discount. I wouldn’t even take him up on this offer at a great discount.

Lessons learned.....

Get in writing who you will be hunting with
Get in writing what will happen if no shot is presented....if possible pay for the hunt and then agree on a kill fee
I wouldn’t mind paying more for some kind of opportunity guarantee.
Ask exactly how much acreage there is to hunt and find out if there is access to elk no matter the weather
Be persistent about recent kills and what scouting is being done
A discount hunt may just be too good to be true. There was definitely a reason I could afford this hunt.
Definitely wait until you can afford a legitimate outfitter.

It sounds like you should have booked a high fence "hunt" because hunting elk is a whole lot like hunting, and a little bit about shooting, an elk !

I don’t mind hunting hard but I could “hunt” my back yard and see just as many bulls

I'm just glad your not educatinging my kids, ever heard of google maps ? Why did you not know where and when you were hunting?
You did no home work, and pissed away some cash, its called getting an education .
You didn't do your homework and it cost you, no ones fault but your own !
Did you post any questions here before you booked your hunt ?
I didn't think so !

Not on this site....no. But on another site yes. Got good references.

I did know where I was hunting and I knew the exact dates. I didn’t get information on each individual property

To say I did no homework shows your ignorance. You ASSume quite a bit with no basis.

Having never hunted elk I am fully aware of my ignorance.

Ok my bad, I see you are a Texan, you are right , the guide was a dick and you should get 30 grand back, for not getting an elk ,a full curl sheep and a better than average moose, I overlooked, that I will try harder in the future, best wishes and happy holidays !

Alright lets start over, did you enjoy your time in the mountains? Was the food and lodging up to par ? Were the guides prompt, prepared and courteous ?
Did you ask questions about why you were hunting where there were no elk, did you hear any shooting, were people riding 4 wheelers?

Just not shooting an elk is no reason for not having a great time, usually after you shoot an elk, things take a down turn when it comes to fun, just maybe you had a better time than you really know !

Lodging was a 4 out of 10. Unfinished and uninsulated but acceptable to me.

Food was a 7 out of 10 the cook truly enjoyed his work and was super friendly.

Both guides were friendly courteous and only late for one evening hunt.

I loved being in the mountains except for needing to be in better shape.

I could easily accept not harvesting an elk but I certainly expected an opportunity and at the very least to see a bull

That's what we all expect, but thats why its called hunting, elk do not give it up easily, if you had a good time then it was money well spent, you learned, they learned both of you will be better prepared next time.

Red , like you I would have expected the guides to be familiar with the area the outfit operates. Outfitters web site says the guides have pre scouted and patterned the target game animals. I do understand its hunting and not shooting so no guarantee and yet had guides bust their ass trying to get me on animals .

An elk hunt, even a piss poor one is the hunt of a life time and should be enjoyed by all involved, the cold ,the snow, the mud, the cold food and colder bed are just all part of what makes killing a bull elk one of the best thing in life, the horses break out, the cook stove won't light. bears tear up the tents, that's what makes it elk hunting !
You just need to take another look at what your goals are, there are plenty of places that you can shoot an elk out of the truck, while sipping a cold beer, but thats not saying much about the elk or the "hunter" you only get out , what you put in to it !

Elk harvest success rates are generally less than 50% everywhere. Not being in shape cuts low odds in half again.

Not having any bulls cuts it to zero

No one said not in shape....there is always better shape

I don't know where you were in NM, but everyone I know (including me on a deer hunt) has had a tough year. Sounds like you have some legitimate gripes, though.

The outfitters website claims 80-90% harvest rate over the last 4 years on 5x5 or larger. Even on a tough year I would expect to see some bulls hunting private land. Elk hunting can be tough and they are extremely smart and have great senses but I’d hope this outfitter could put his clients on some bulls or elk each day at least.
Don’t give up. You can always draw a public land tag and DIY and have success.

5Redman8, you mentioned conditioning. Do you think there were better places your guide wanted to hunt but couldn’t because you were unable to get to those spots? Folks in outstanding physical condition who live on the flat @ low elevation don’t understand “Mountain Hunting Condition” until they’ve done it.

As for the guide not being there for the evening sit, I guess given that you’d been seeing very few elk, I’d rather have the guide out looking somewhere else rather than have him in my hip-pocket. Divide and conquer so to speak.

Weather can play a major role in game movement as well. Warm lazy-days are exactly that. When you sit down for a snack and your eyelids get heavy, an elk is thinking the exact same thing. When Cold/snow has you afoot to just to stay warm, it’ll have the elk doing the same and country that was deserted yesterday can be covered-up in critters the next.

A guide is like a tool. I can install/remove most Phillips-head screws with a flat-blade screw-driver. If I use a Phillips-head driver, I’ll get most Phillips-head screws out/in. However, even using the properly fit Phillips-driver, sometimes I’m going to strip the screw. You can have the absolute best tool in the world and even then, sometimes, things don’t work out.

Horse1

I had been walking and hiking 3-4 miles a day and did a 10 mile hike....albeit on flat ground with no issue

I would consider conditioning to be an issue but one of the other guys on the trip was in tip top shape.....climbed all over the place and never saw anything.....other than driving in the truck

Another guy was in good condition and never saw an elk.

More information is coming out on another forum.

Redman, it sounds like you have some legitimate gripes. It sounds like the elk weren't there in your area and the outfitter didn't have a Plan B. If I paid good money for a private land guided hunt, I would expect the outfitter to put me on some elk. Or at least put me in an area with elk.

Having said that, there are no guarantees and I don't think your lessons learned are focused on the right questions. An outfitter can't always guarantee who your guide will be. His job is just to make sure you have a good one. An outfitter can't guarantee you'll get a shot opportunity,his job is to do his best to get you one. The fact that you were directed to keep hunting where there were no elk with no Plan B would have frustrated me too. But no outfitter can guarantee anything in writing, and you shouldn't expect him to.

The best you can do is talk to references, especially hunters who didn't punch their tag. If they say "I didn't get a shot but the guides were great and worked their asses off for me" that should be good enough. Assuming the area held elk in the first place.

Elk are where they are and do what they do. You can have them figured out and fill your tag for a decade, then they decide to do something different and you're stumped.

Elk hunting is NOTHING like deer hunting because of the sheer amount of ground an elk can and will travel at the drop of a hat. I've seen whitetails and Mule Deer travel 3-4Mi out on the open prairie before slowing down and finding a hiddey-hole. An elk will travel double or triple that distance daily for food and/or water let alone how far they'll go once pressured.

Sometimes they'll Houdini themselves right out from under your nose (happened to us on opening day this year), and other times you'd swear they have a death-wish. I killed a bull about 10-days ago @ 400yds even. The other 3 in the group stood around long enough for my buddy to kill his. The remaining 2 bulls went downhill, then back uphill and we could've killed them both @ 50yds. Fall of '18 my buddy shot a cow and when the shooting stopped an unseen 320"-330" bull stepped out of a drainage up onto a flat @ ~200yds and stood there "barking" at us, I'd filled my tag the day before so all we could do was giggle @ how dumb that bull was being.

I’ve guided some. I know the new to the area guide thing happens and I would not be happy about it. I usually tell people that’s one of the questions they should be asking. Sometimes guides aren’t assigned until everyone is in camp, but you should still expect to have guides familiar with the area. Although you’ll always have newer and older guides.

Your complaints about guarantees are unrealistic, even for private ranch hunts. At least in most of the west. I’ve guided on a big private ranch that you really can’t tell the difference between it and the designated wilderness area adjacent to it. No guarantees there either.

Unfortunately if you wanted a given bull hunt you should have paid a few grand more. It is what it is. You should have accumulated points in WY, CO, AZ and did a DYI hunt for half that. That I
Combine a drawn tag with a summer scouting trip out west. You said you're in teaching so have summers off.

Ive done a few guided hunts that were like yours. I paid attention when hunting and insisted to go back where game and sign were seen when they just want to drop you off to sit in an unproductive spot. Ive saved a few schitty guided hunts by being proactive using research on google maps before and going out on my own or insisting on moving locations when it was obvious the guides did not know area. A lot of those "guided private ranch hunts" you are just paying for access and not good guides to hold your hand if its under 8 to 10 k.

As mentioned getting a reference list of hunters successful and unsuccessful is a no brainer on guided expensive hunts. At least can pick their brain where they ran into elk in different conditions. Sounds like you didn't even bother contacting and talking to prior hunters and just relived the advertisement . That was your mistake


. Not shooting that cow was your mistake on your first hunt imo

There for sure are outfitters out there that are shady as hell, but I am seeing red flags with the OP's post, and not just the red flags he self-describes.

I'd talk to the outfitter and guides before forming a conclusion here...

Were you hunting a RO authorization for 46? If so, that falls in the special management zone and does not lend itself to being able to move around much.

That country has had a lot of activity with the recent fire along with being a state hot spot for year round hunting.

The area also has a unique make up of residents, they are not to keen on outsiders. I worked for years with a crew from Mora/Cleveland/Chacon and they were great people, but the area is unique.

It was for private land. And there was a fire in the area but James assured me he had plenty of land away from the fire and “a 5x5 should be no problem”

We did hunt some land about an hour away from camp which is where I saw the 2 cows.

The elk seen by the other guy while driving was close to camp

The common denominator I have seen in complaints about elk outfitters on private land hunts is a low price point. $5K for a private land elk hunt is a huge red flag....best scenario you are looking at a raghorn. I would expect a low pressure, private land elk hunt with trophy caliber bulls to be at least $10k, with many closer to $14K.

If $5K was my budget for an elk hunt I would go wilderness with horseback and wall tents. Its a known crapshoot, but at least the experience is there.

Cheap and 80-90% success on 5x5 bulls doesn't add up. If it were true the outfitter would be booked up years out. That being said cheap guided hunts are tempting. I went on a couple cheap bear hunts when I was younger and there were always issues. When you save a little more money consider booking through a hunting consultant. It may sound weird to add a middle man but good consultants only book hunters with reputable outfitters they have vetted so it takes much of the worry about finding a good outfitter out of your hands. My last 2 hunts were booked through Hunt-nation. Both were great exactly as advertised. I'll probably book another one with them soon.

WideOpen and Bill N

I am learning what you both posted is true. I was certainly blinded by a “bargain”.

Wish your hunt would have went better.

46 is tough due to it being mostly private and the “ranches” are mostly pretty small.

PM sent

Most of these responses sound like they are from employees of the outfitter. When someone advertises the possibilities of success as high as this outfitter, you would expect better results.

Guiding for someone on property you have never been on before certainly doesn’t sound like a prepared outfitter or guide. How some people here that want to call themselves guides, will tell a potential client he needed to do more homework and know the terrain, don’t fit the model of a desirable guide.

The fact remains that if the outfitter advertised a hunt that you would have an inexperienced guide, walk for a couple hours in the morning, then sit on a hill in the evening hoping to see something. The next day do the same or less and ask you to be patient because your guide hasn’t been on this property before and he needs to leave mid-morning to go work cattle, and so on...

I doubt any of the guys supporting this farce of a hunt would pay to be treated this way either. It sounds like a major loss and anyone anticipating a good hunt, expecting a chance at a bull elk, would be disappointed with this outfitter.

This is a good post.



It seems to me that you may have had some unrealistic expectations that your outfitter did not disabuse you of, Redman. And he had a financial incentive not to. Like others have said, a nearly guaranteed bull hunt would run at least double what you paid, at least here in MT, even with the "covid" going on.

In another thread, I mentioned my cousin who runs what amounts to a bull-shooting business. He makes good money. The reason isn't because so many guys think it's great to shoot what amounts to a bull in a corral. The reason why is because bull elk are often quite difficult to find, and even harder to get a shot at. They don't like to be hunted and killed, and they can get into and out of places that people can't, in conditions that keep most guys from wanting to go out.

Elk hunting is a life-risking endeavor. I have nearly died on one elk hunt, due to a storm that moved in on us while we were trying to get one out. Another time I got to the top of a mountain when it was about -25 F, sat down to rest, got hypothermic, and nearly had to be drug off the mountain when I started to go into shock. All of the toes on my right foot are frost-bitten, and I can't feel most of them. That's all elk hunting.

What you had was a guided hiking expedition.

There is a five dollar fine for whining. And brother, you're gonna need another jar. Get more money out cause you'll never kill an elk on your own.

I never indicated that I even think I have the ability nor the desire to kill an elk on my own.

None of my buddies hunt elk....no one in my family has hunted elk. I am 44 years old and fully aware that I need a guide because I have never had a clue about elk until now.

You pay for what you get..

That is true, but did you look at the claims made by the outfitter on his site?

The outfitter's site claims that over the past 4 years they had 80 to 90% success on bulls that were 5x5 or better and the outfitter set the price. The OP claims that nobody who was in camp with him tagged an elk, let alone at least 80% of them tagging 5x5s or better. The outfitter in question seems to have set high expectations that weren't, in this client's experience, close to what was delivered. I would have expected full-time guides, not guides who had dumped me in camp while they hurried off to do the regular day jobs.

I've never hunted elk with a paid guide, only as a guest of landowners who didn't lease their hunting rights and hadn't sold a hunting easement to an outfit like RMEF. The owner offered advice on where to look for elk, good places to glass from, and springs/seeps that didn't appear on my topo maps.

This is in no way a defense of the outfitter, sounds like the OP got a bad deal.

The outfitter would have a hard time selling a hunt any higher than that if a person looks at the make up of unit 46. The unit is made up of a bunch of small “ranches”, 50 to 300 acres with most being less than 300. There are some larger places, but not many.

Unlike other units, all authorizations are ranch only, but you are allowed to hunt other properties with written permission. You may hunt a 100 acre place in the AM and have to go 10 miles to another property that the outfitter has access to to hunt 60 acres in the PM.

The cost of private ground hunts with an outfitter on bigger ranches, in better units in NM cost twice that partially due to an authorization from a better unit running $3,500 to $10,000. A unit 46 mature bull authorization sales for ~$1,000 to $1,500 when they can find a buyer. ( which is hard)

Again, not defending the outfitter at all, it sounds like he is not up front on the hunt, just giving a little perspective.

How many acres would you find acceptable to elk hunt?

I've never hunted for elk on a ranch that was less than 750 acres or one that was more than 7,000 acres.

1200 was at risk of fire but the fire turned north.

Price makes absolutely no difference. The OP got taken and has every right to point out the obvious.

Don’t think there is an answer to that. With the right 20, you could kill an elk, the wrong 20,000 you could hunt your butt off and not see a thing.

My point to 46 and all units in the special management zone is you run out of options pretty fast ( if they aren’t managed right) unless the outfitter has access to a bunch of properties. It doesn’t take much to blow out a 300 acre ranch. By the time you went, there had been multiple bow and rifle hunts before you. Unless the outfitter has a large contiguous chunk of ground, you’re forced to bounce property to property in hopes they are on one of the secured properties.

I have no idea how many ranches, size or the relation to each of them that the outfitter has secured, or the agreement between the LO’s and himself on hunting activity by others. I can tell you, the NMDGF give a bunch of authorizations for the the area, so you are competing with LO’s/locals hunting as well as hunters brought in by outfitters.

I'm guessing thats 6,000 cumulative acres that he has permission to hunt via his outfitter license and/or landowner agreements. Was that your understanding from the beginning or did the outfitter give an indication that it was a single block? Looking at the text you asked about the [singular]ranch, so I'd think his response would have clarified it was several non conjoined properties, but that's just my initial thoughts.

Sorry you didn't have a good time. That's unfortunate. It may be tough and not in your long term plan, but it is always in the cards to save up again, if you want it bad enough.

Was typing while you posted this. Curios as I mentioned how the 6,000 was split up.

Agreed, probably an honest answer, but a bit deceiving to someone that doesn’t understand E-Plus.

I ASSumed that his ranch was 6,000 in one property but I did understand there were other ranches.....I ASSumed the other ranches were in addition to his 6,000

I should have asked specifically how much total property was involved, how many properties there were, and if his ranch/ranches hold elk or are they passing through.

The OP was hunting in Unit 46 of New Mexico. It’s a damn dumpster fire. These ‘outfitters’ really aren’t even outfitters, as they are just agents for the landowners. There are thousands private land tags in the unit (zero public draw permits) that are pimped out at discount rates at every outdoor show around the country, to gullible guys like the OP, who are looking to book their ‘once in a lifetime elk hunt’. These hunts are usually pretty cheap, especially by fully guided elk hunt standards, but that’s because they suck!

For the folks giving the guy a hard time, stop… he’s already been bent over enough. Even the best of you elk hunters would have a very low batting average here; I concur with the OP’s guide in trying to bump one by stumbling into them as a tactic. There is zero public land to hunt and they’re often smallish chunks of land by western standards. Since it’s an entirely private land unit, hunters can choose any 5-day period for rifle, or a 10-day period with a bow, in which they want to hunt. The elk have not had a break in hunting pressure since September 1st, save 5 days between the 26th and 30th of September, because of this. With hunters being pumped through that country in an assembly line, the resident elk are likely only in a few, well patrolled, areas that don’t have any other hunting pressure…. If those even exist, because Mora and the surrounding areas are some of the most lawless lowlife enclaves of scum one could ever want to look for in rural America.

Here is another red flag that I missed.

I asked how many acres his ranch is. His reply is below.

When I asked for a location/map of “the ranch” he deflected to the fire.

Looking back.....he did it give a location because there are small properties all over.

The outfitter seems to be answering your questions without really answering them, no specifics.

I'd want to do a map recon before being there and I can't think that someone with nothing to hide wouldn't provide that information to incoming clients. A prepared client is likely to be a successful/happy client.

I have experienced pushback from locals who were upset that I was granted access to land that they didn't have access to. Particularly so when the ranch blocked the best/easiest access to public land in the area, even though I was hunting on the deeded land and not on the public land.

It's hard to say if the outfitter was purposefully answering the questions without really answering them.

Some people's heads just operate that way. I deal with it on a daily basis at work. You ask about X and Y, they respond with info about X-Y.

You work with my wife?? If so, you left out A, B, C, and D.

My bad, you need too work on how this hunt works for you...

It's a shame you have to get your balls broke by trying to let other folks know about the outfitter you used and a hunt that did not meet expectations. You stated the mistakes you made by disregarding the red flags. That does not make you responsible for the rip off. I hope your next outfitted hunt will be fantastic. Good luck.

I had a similar hunt several years ago in the same state. It was a public land hunt, with other hunters also using the area. My guide (who did know the country) eventually told me that the outfitter had "overbooked" during the Archery season and had pounded the elk, hard. One hunter had apparently wounded several bulls and had been allowed to continue hunting. We saw one bull elk while driving to the headquarters, and one on the second to last day of the hunt. Weather conditions did nothing to help, nor did miles of daily walking spotting and hiking looking for sign. After returning home, I wrote the fish and game, and the NM Outfitters Association. Not long after the hunt the outfitter went out of business. I have been on three guided hunts in my lifetime, and have seen two elk neither a shooting situation. Its really hard to judge what your getting into, up front,

Sorry to hear about your experience, this is what worries me about ever trying to book a hunt out west. I'll take my chances on public land.

If you are interested, I am booking a cow elk hunt in the next 6 weeks in West Texas that is a free range herd (large ranch). Guide says no kill no pay and said the hunt can be done in one day.

When this thread started, a friend and I had already booked a cow elk hunt with Luna Canyon. What the OP said was alarming.

My experience was excellent. We hunted hard for three days and I was rewarded with a huge cow elk. My friend saw numerous
cow elk but nothing got within range. We both enjoyed the hunt greatly and my friend plans to schedule another hunt in 2021.
Everything that was promised was delivered.

While we never met James, he was on an aoudad hunt in southern New Mexico, our guide was a local resident and very
knowledgeable of the area. He was easy to get along with and had a very good personality. He worked very hard to make the
hunt a success.

I am not contesting what the OP said. I am just briefly stating what my experience was on my hunt.

This is exactly why I withheld judgment in my original post on this thread.

The OP has responded with very reasonable and seemingly honest responses, but who knows what he was really like in the field and if his expectations were what most people would consider reasonable. It is so hard to get a good feel for people by just reading what they type.

Maybe different guides were used. Maybe boliep just got lucky with his timing. There's lots of variables to consider and is why I didn't immediately "take sides". I do wish the OP had a better experience but for those of us just reading this here online, forming a conclusion just isn't practical.

I will say though, never having experience with it, the E plus system is something I'd just assume avoid.

In most units E-Plus is not as much of a problem. The special management units can get a bit messy since most of the properties are small and RO.

Unfortunately, you do not have to be licensed/ insured to guide/outfit on private as long as you claim you are acting as an agent to the LO. This is how this “outfitter” is able to have hunters even with multiple game violations.

There is a pretty big push going now to restructure E-Plus, but obviously the outfitting industry is crying foul.

I grew up and still live on the AZ/NM border in elk country and have hunted this area and in NM all my hunting life. I'm not a big fan of the NM landowner tag deal but have talked to several landowners that get tags and several people that have bought the landowner tags both guided and unguided, and the stories rate from 0-10 on a 1-10 scale, so you really have to do your homework to make sure you get a good area and a good deal.

I myself would never buy a landowner tag and have relied on the draw in both AZ and NM and have taken probably a dozen or more bulls and a few cows as have both of my sons. If I lived out of state I would determine the better areas, put in for the luck of the draw, and then go scout if I was drawn......I know thats easier said than done if you're 500 miles away though.