.......... Heavy Revolver A-Frame® bullets expand at 950 feet per second, to 1.65x their original caliber, and maintain 97% of their weight. They are virtually indestructible at velocities in excess of 3000 feet per second. ..........
Paul Do you know what revolver they were getting 3000 FPS out of?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
Ok,,,,, but before I can make a suggestion, what .44 Mag Hand Gun are we talking about,,,,, because it makes a difference, a BIG Difference Actually,,,,,,,, so, what you packin..... ? Lj
Ok,,,,, but before I can make a suggestion, what .44 Mag Hand Gun are we talking about,,,,, because it makes a difference, a BIG Difference Actually,,,,,,,, so, what you packin..... ? Lj
Im interested in why it makes a difference as to which 44 he uses
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
329 I run a grain or two less than a Keith load with a Keith 240 or 250 I forget right now. Shooting into dead stuff, trees etc... it has PLENTY of penetration...
I've shot 270 and 300... no thank you.
I've transitioned to a Glock 20 in the meantime and am very pleased with that gun.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
.......... Heavy Revolver A-Frame® bullets expand at 950 feet per second, to 1.65x their original caliber, and maintain 97% of their weight. They are virtually indestructible at velocities in excess of 3000 feet per second. ..........
Paul Do you know what revolver they were getting 3000 FPS out of?
.......... Heavy Revolver A-Frame® bullets expand at 950 feet per second, to 1.65x their original caliber, and maintain 97% of their weight. They are virtually indestructible at velocities in excess of 3000 feet per second. ..........
Paul Do you know what revolver they were getting 3000 FPS out of?
I am assuming they engineered a way to launch them at that speed.
.......... Heavy Revolver A-Frame® bullets expand at 950 feet per second, to 1.65x their original caliber, and maintain 97% of their weight. They are virtually indestructible at velocities in excess of 3000 feet per second. ..........
Paul Do you know what revolver they were getting 3000 FPS out of?
I am assuming they engineered a way to launch them at that speed.
Yeah, probably. It just struck me funny like for a revolver ammo ad. 😆
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
.......... Heavy Revolver A-Frame® bullets expand at 950 feet per second, to 1.65x their original caliber, and maintain 97% of their weight. They are virtually indestructible at velocities in excess of 3000 feet per second. ..........
Paul Do you know what revolver they were getting 3000 FPS out of?
Rugers are built tough!
Yep and weigh as much as carrying a dang rifle... sold my lead weighted red hawk. realized it wasn't a carry gun, it was a hunting gun at best.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I'd go with a 300 grain flat point from BB, Grizzly or Underwood
Yup. I'll add Alaska Backpacker, Double Tap and HSM "Bear Load" to that list. I have several boxes from all except Underwood on hand here in AH and stashed at my up north house.
Never hunted Alaska, but based on what Whitworth and others have said, I buy or load ammunition with the 300gr Swift A Frames.
Phil Shoemaker killed a 900 pound bear that charged him and his clients with hardcast from a 9mm. Why would one need to spend more?
Hardcast are about all I carry for bear. Its the moose you need to worry about though generally. I dont' feel I have an issue the days I carry a smaller 9 instead of my Glock 20 either. For charging stuff it has to have the power / penetration to break the spine or skull. Then you have to hit that. Simple as that.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Alaskan BackPackers are what I run in my 44, Ruger New Super Blackhawk with the 4 5/8" barrel. Garrett Hammerheads are awesome rounds too but are quite spendy @ $100 for a box of 50.
As others are saying, run 300's. If you handloaded, there might be better options, but a 300gr cast bullet at 1000fps+ is going to do the job. It isn't speed that allows them to work so well; it is momentum. Buy enough so you can run several cylinders beforehand, to make sure they shoot where they should, that they don't back out of the case and tie up your cylinder, and that you can handle the recoil effectively for follow-up shots.
Ok, I use primarily Buffalo-Bore Ammo, as well as some Alaska Backpacker 300gr & 320gr, you won't find the Alaska Backpacker Ammo any longer, as Bob, that would be Robert (Bob) Wiseman, that used to have the AMMO Shop in Soldotna, AK. ie... (The Kenai Peninsula) has Closed the Shop, as his Health has gone down hill. I've added some attachments below..... do as you like, but these are my Recommendation. Lj Oh, and by the way, I'm packing a Custom Ruger Bisley SBH Hunter .44Mag..... attached below
Last edited by AK375DGR; 11/10/20. Reason: Added Info:
What does "not Phil Shoemaket" have to do with the fact the 9mm with Hardcastle worked?
Absolutely nothing
I would argue it has absolutely everything to do with the fact that they worked. They worked because of where they were placed rapidly under duress. It was the driver that won that race, not the car.
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
A read that with a heavy accent of sarcasm.
22 would actually be cheapest, and we know that works.
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
A read that with a heavy accent of sarcasm.
22 would actually be cheapest, and we know that works.
Ok,,,,, well, thats a Very Astute Observation on your part, Good on You..... Lj
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
LOL, if you only knew anything about CWH2.
Last edited by 358Norma_fan; 11/10/20.
"243/85TSX It's as if the HAMMER OF THOR were wielded by CHUCK NORRIS himself, and a roundhouse kick thrown in for good measure."
What does "not Phil Shoemaket" have to do with the fact the 9mm with Hardcastle worked?
Absolutely nothing
I would argue it has absolutely everything to do with the fact that they worked. They worked because of where they were placed rapidly under duress. It was the driver that won that race, not the car.
Had to be both, location will not matter if the bullet is not up to the task I'm not Phil Shoemaker and I shot a grizzly with a handgun that came in on us cleaning a moose and it worked
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
LOL, if you only knew anything about CWH2.
Ok,,,,, you are correct, but with that being said, with his comment,,,,, I stand by my Post. .... Lj
I certainly don't get out much, and I don't have nearly the bear encounter experience of some, but the point is this:
Just because it worked once, doesn't mean it is a good idea. It could mean that it is the bare (pun!) minimum that could possibly work. So, drawing conclusions based on a small sample size is generally a bad idea.
JWP is a smart feller, and as I recall the bear he mentions shooting wasn't shot with a 9mm, regardless of bullets.
I certainly don't get out much, and I don't have nearly the bear encounter experience of some, but the point is this:
Just because it worked once, doesn't mean it is a good idea. It could mean that it is the bare (pun!) minimum that could possibly work. So, drawing conclusions based on a small sample size is generally a bad idea.
JWP is a smart feller, and as I recall the bear he mentions shooting wasn't shot with a 9mm, regardless of bullets.
No I didn't use a 9mm. Phil tested that 9mm ammo and concluded that it had enough penetration to work without exiting and endangering his clients. Phil had the unfortunate encounter that proved his conclusion was correct
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I certainly don't get out much, and I don't have nearly the bear encounter experience of some, but the point is this:
Just because it worked once, doesn't mean it is a good idea. It could mean that it is the bare (pun!) minimum that could possibly work. So, drawing conclusions based on a small sample size is generally a bad idea.
JWP is a smart feller, and as I recall the bear he mentions shooting wasn't shot with a 9mm, regardless of bullets.
Ok,,,,, just trying to follow your thoughts here,,,,, are you implying that Phil should have tried Bear-Spray 1st, before using his 9mm in that type of situation,,,,,,, wow, I'm not sure Phil even carries Bear-Spray,,,,,, but even if he does, from what I know of that particular instance, I doubt Bear-Spray was the 1st thing that came to his mind,,,,,, I don't carry Bear-Spray, and never will,,,,,, if needed, my .44 will do the job, it has, and will continue to do so. LJ
No, I'm not implying that anyone rely on bear spray. In no way am I recommending bear spray. I don't care if people use it, but I personally don't. Aside from the lack of effectiveness, there are other concerns with bear spray. As I recall from previous posts, Phil does carry and use bear spray, but is a long ways from "relying" upon it. My use of the example of spray was in relation to the 9mm comment and meant as sarcasm and a bit of hyperbole. Wolverine, I thought about using "22", but fell back to bear spray as the minimum that might work
Moving back from that tangent... In re-reading JWPs comments, it was more around "why spend more money on bullets besides hard cast" and less about the particular chambering. As I recall the little 9mm isn't even Phil's normal sidearm in bear country, but he certainly made it work. I think there are certainly arguments for folks using a firearm they are comfortable with, and many are either not comfortable or competent with a .44. I'm not sure I'd want to recommend the 9mm universally as a brown bear defensive gun, but if that's what someone had and was comfortable with, I'd certainly go that way over sticks, spray or rocks.
No, I'm not implying that anyone rely on bear spray. In no way am I recommending bear spray. I don't care if people use it, but I personally don't. Aside from the lack of effectiveness, there are other concerns with bear spray. As I recall from previous posts, Phil does carry and use bear spray, but is a long ways from "relying" upon it. My use of the example of spray was in relation to the 9mm comment and meant as sarcasm and a bit of hyperbole. Wolverine, I thought about using "22", but fell back to bear spray as the minimum that might work
Moving back from that tangent... In re-reading JWPs comments, it was more around "why spend more money on bullets besides hard cast" and less about the particular chambering. As I recall the little 9mm isn't even Phil's normal sidearm in bear country, but he certainly made it work. I think there are certainly arguments for folks using a firearm they are comfortable with, and many are either not comfortable or competent with a .44. I'm not sure I'd want to recommend the 9mm universally as a brown bear defensive gun, but if that's what someone had and was comfortable with, I'd certainly go that way over sticks, spray or rocks.
Ok then,,,,, I'm understanding your thought process now,,,, and I concur, so were Good..... for now. Lj
There are times I carry bear spray and from the few sample times I have used it, it worked and was a great educational tool that hopefully saved the bear some future grief. But bear spray and handguns for bear protection are similar to wearing a life jacket in a boat ot keeping a fire extinguisher in your home. They are last ditch tools .
There are times I carry bear spray and from the few sample times I have used it, it worked and was a great educational tool that hopefully saved the bear some future grief. But bear spray and handguns for bear protection are similar to wearing a life jacket in a boat ot keeping a fire extinguisher in your home. They are last ditch tools .
Phil, 1st, I would be surprised if any of those Bears, especially in your area,,,,, that you encountered during those few times with Bear-Spray actually retained any thoughts of caution/fear..... just my thoughts, Oh, and by the way,,,,, that last ditch 9mm, came in pretty handy I'd say..... You take Care... Lj
Are those 270gr Deep Curls any good? Will they penatrate far enough. I,m shooting a S&W with 6.5" barrel. Has anyone shot anything with them?
They are a compromise weight. I wish they still sold the 300gr version. I would (and will, as I have some loaded up in 444 brass) use them for hunting big animals, but I would pick different bullets for last-ditch self-defense against big bears.
Many bear encounters have been resolved with bear spray. Why would one need to spend more?
Ok,,,,, well, with a comment like that,,,, I'd say you don't get out much, because if you did,,, you sure as Hell wouldn't be making a statement as such, and by the way,,,,, how many Bear Encounters have you actually had,,,,, I would bet NONE. Lj
LOL, if you only knew anything about CWH2.
Yeah, the nerve to question Chris about bears! He knows all about bears because he got to watch at least a zillion Al Gross ads!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
There are times I carry bear spray and from the few sample times I have used it, it worked and was a great educational tool that hopefully saved the bear some future grief. But bear spray and handguns for bear protection are similar to wearing a life jacket in a boat ot keeping a fire extinguisher in your home. They are last ditch tools .
Phil, 1st, I would be surprised if any of those Bears, especially in your area,,,,, that you encountered during those few times with Bear-Spray actually retained any thoughts of caution/fear..... just my thoughts, Oh, and by the way,,,,, that last ditch 9mm, came in pretty handy I'd say..... You take Care... Lj
Bears live past 30 years and are likely twice as smart as a dog. They do have long memories and like every animal, pain is a memory stimulator.
Phil, you should tell to all those internet expert when a big boy ripped off the electrical fence around one of your camp and [bleep] up the whole camp after he figured out how not be hit by the fence.... I bet our brown bears are smarter than 50% of the morons writing on those forums I call people "[bleep]"
Phil, you should tell to all those internet expert when a big boy ripped off the electrical fence around one of your camp and [bleep] up the whole camp after he figured out how not be hit by the fence.... I bet our brown bears are smarter than 50% of the morons writing on those forums I call people "[bleep]"
That is not nice!!!
Cannot argue, but you bent feelers!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
I've only hunted Alaska twice. The first time was in 1980 and I carried a Ruger 7 1/2" SBH. The second time was last year and I carried a S&W 4" Model 629. Both times my bullets were handloads with Lyman #429244 250 grain gas checked bullets cast from wheel weights.
Not in Alaska, but one of those bullets from my Ruger didn't have any problem putting down a black bear.
I have been carrying my 329 loaded with BB Dangerous Game rounds. Solid copper with a wide meplat. I feel better knowing I won’t die of lead poisoning when the bear shoves it up my a$$. But seriously, this copper round is supposed to penetrate better than hard cast lead. Not needing the heaviest hard cast bullet helps recoil and follow up shots.
I have a few of those B.B. Lehigh. I am curious how those stack up against a good 300 grain flat nose hard cast as to penetration. The same curiosity regarding the 480, 330 grain against the 410 hard cast. The 300 grain Lehigh in 45 Colt, in theory I would guess would be more of a penetrator than the 325-335 hard cast. The 380 grain Lehigh in the 45-70 also looks promising.
That's what I used for a lot of years. Truth is I came closer to having to drop the hammer on a moose than a bear, and I've been around a lot of bears, but as long as there are plenty of fish don't seem to be the same risk. The moose came charging out of the brush because of a new calf. Fortunately for us while the cow, wanted to stomp some people she didn't want to get far enough away from her calf to get all the way to us. I typically carried a Ruger Super blackhawk with a 5-1/2" barrel. Apparently there's something mysterious about which gun you carry according to one guy who couldn't say what he carried in his before he found out what you were carrying. I carried that because I've carried a Single Action gun for over 50 years and they point very well for me. I put a lot of faith in that first bullet going where I want it to go.
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
The 250 to 300 gr Keith style hard cast penetrates and kills well out of .44 Magnum. Shot about 300 plus testing them in the early 80,s now 35 years later I find I can shoot the 10 mm with greater accuracy and faster than my old 44 mag so I use it loaded with 220 gr hard cast, one 10MM may not stop something but it has 14 friends that are ready to help.
Shooting the 44 mag and the 10 side by side was quite revealing to me.
As what's been said before placement and penetration are what matters most.
Shot a lot of big halibut in the 80,s with my 44 HP bullets of that era would not penetrate the head but hard cast bullets would. Some going through water first the hard cast always would. A friend of mine did not believe me when I told him that he later told me you were right.
Shot several small skinned out Brown Bear bullet testing with hard cast bullets and most would penetrate through shoulder areas. 250 and 300 gr hard cast out of a 44 magnum.
Last edited by kk alaska; 11/28/20.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
My 44 protection load is 320 gr. Hard cast WFN at 1200 fast. From my 4 5/8 inch super blackhawk. I don't run that ammo in my S&W mountain gun. 45 colt- 340 gr. Hard cast. 480 ruger 425 gr. Hard cast. 10 mm 220 gr. Buffalo Bore. 357 mag. 200 gr. Hard cast. I like them big heavy and hard.
6 rounds of 44 magnum with double action trigger pull or 15 rounds of 9 or 40 from a semi-auto? I'd venture a guess that 99 % of all shooters would be more effective with a 9 or 40 in a speed drill. I never got good with double action rapid fire from my Redhawk. I was okay with my P-95.
Practice practice practice. Spend more money on ammo than you paid for the weapon. Shoot it and shoot it often. What ever your weapon of choice is. Know your firearm well......
The 250 to 300 gr Keith style hard cast penetrates and kills well out of .44 Magnum. Shot about 300 plus testing them in the early 80,s now 35 years later I find I can shoot the 10 mm with greater accuracy and faster than my old 44 mag so I use it loaded with 220 gr hard cast, one 10MM may not stop something but it has 14 friends that are ready to help.
Shooting the 44 mag and the 10 side by side was quite revealing to me.
As what's been said before placement and penetration are what matters most.
Shot a lot of big halibut in the 80,s with my 44 HP bullets of that era would not penetrate the head but hard cast bullets would. Some going through water first the hard cast always would. A friend of mine did not believe me when I told him that he later told me you were right.
Shot several small skinned out Brown Bear bullet testing with hard cast bullets and most would penetrate through shoulder areas. 250 and 300 gr hard cast out of a 44 magnum.
Trust me you put the first 10mm where it needs to go its over. Don't put the first 44 in that same spot its not over. Simply stated the 10 has enough penetration. More power to those that have faith and can handle things like the 500 SW. We have one too. Its never our choice for bear/moose defense because its heavy. Hurts to shoot and if I have to deal with both of those I'll just grab my 458 or like rifle instead.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
6 rounds of 44 magnum with double action trigger pull or 15 rounds of 9 or 40 from a semi-auto? I'd venture a guess that 99 % of all shooters would be more effective with a 9 or 40 in a speed drill. I never got good with double action rapid fire from my Redhawk. I was okay with my P-95.
Capacity beyond 1 or 2 is seldom put to use. Chit happens fast.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
6 rounds of 44 magnum with double action trigger pull or 15 rounds of 9 or 40 from a semi-auto? I'd venture a guess that 99 % of all shooters would be more effective with a 9 or 40 in a speed drill. I never got good with double action rapid fire from my Redhawk. I was okay with my P-95.
Capacity beyond 1 or 2 is seldom put to use. Chit happens fast.
This can be true. OTOH like altitude, more you have to spare the better you are. Its generally never a negative.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
When I was hunting Moose and Bear in Alaska, I always had a 44 next to my pillow when we slept out on the tundra. And they were always loaded with hard cast bullets. Do some penetration tests and you will quickly see why.
I'd go with a 300 grain flat point from BB, Grizzly or Underwood
Nicely said & iirc you’ve a lil time behind a wheel gun or three
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
Whatever you choose make certain you load all six chambers of your 44 Mag there.. This way you can shoot at the bear five times then shoot yourself once.
Whatever you choose make certain you load all six chambers of your 44 Mag there.. This way you can shoot at the bear five times then shoot yourself once.
Why would I expect such an inane comment from someone that goes by "Grizz?"
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Whatever you choose make certain you load all six chambers of your 44 Mag there.. This way you can shoot at the bear five times then shoot yourself once.
Why would I expect such an inane comment from someone that goes by "Grizz?"
Whatever you choose make certain you load all six chambers of your 44 Mag there.. This way you can shoot at the bear five times then shoot yourself once.
Why would I expect such an inane comment from someone that goes by "Grizz?"
Oh fuqk you azz hole develop a sense of humor...
I have a great sense of humor...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
I don’t feel under gunned with a 15rd 10mm that I shoot exceptionally well. I’m building some moving targets to simulate speed and more challenging shots.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
I kinda wish Glock made stronger bear medicine than a 10mm. As I understand it the 10MM is semi close to a 41 mag, in hot cast loads like BB. Sure would be nice to have a magazine full of 13 plus rounds of something a bit stiffer for the bears. As it is I use a big wheelgun, but would feel way better with more than 6 rounds.
Carry what you’re willing to fight with - Mackay Sagebrush
I kinda wish Glock made stronger bear medicine than a 10mm. As I understand it the 10MM is semi close to a 41 mag, in hot cast loads like BB. Sure would be nice to have a magazine full of 13 plus rounds of something a bit stiffer for the bears. As it is I use a big wheelgun, but would feel way better with more than 6 rounds.
Why do you think a Glock 10mm is undergunned?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
I’ve not fended off many bear charges, but I’ve recently become rather impressed with the cheap PRVI 300 grain jacket soft point. I’ve not been able to catch one in game or with 10 gallon milk jugs filled with water...for all I know they are still going.
I kinda wish Glock made stronger bear medicine than a 10mm. As I understand it the 10MM is semi close to a 41 mag, in hot cast loads like BB. Sure would be nice to have a magazine full of 13 plus rounds of something a bit stiffer for the bears. As it is I use a big wheelgun, but would feel way better with more than 6 rounds.
Why do you think a Glock 10mm is undergunned?
Cause they dont make an 11MM? I had a big coastal brownie pop up right behind me while fishing well down the Alaskan Peninsula a couple years ago, and that experience is a motivator in my review of the options.
So, I've narrowed it down to a semi-auto, for magazine capacity and weight reasons, likely a Glock. As to caliber, bigger seems better for the big bears, but I am more than willing to listen to first hand advice on this, which is one reason I come to the fire!
Thanks in advance.
Carry what you’re willing to fight with - Mackay Sagebrush