Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Once again, we have a bunch of people who have never done it, never witnessed it, and never will, pronouncing what will happen.

JB

Indy, I'm with you on all counts.

It's not a matter of IF a 45-70, 7mm Mauser, 30-06, or 300 magnum will penetrate through a Cape buffalo (at least some of the time!) or even kill him. As has been detailed a bit, I've done so myself with a 300 Win., and yeah, WDM Bell killed elephants with a 7mm Mauser. I also remember an old and respectable article on the 30-06 in Africa in an old 'Sports Afield' annual from the 1950s that showed the author with a dead buffalo he killed with an Ought-Six. So yes, it can be done, and it has been done, and in all likelihood it will be done again.....and again.....and again..........

The question is, is all of this "fringe" stuff ideal for Cape buffalo under all possible conditions, and is it (Great Motherhood Theory time!) "just as good" as the more potent, more modern, or better-by-design stuff? The answer is, emphatically, NO! Not now, and not ever!

I can't think of anything, quite honestly, that's more unpredicatable than Cape buffalo hunting, that is, unless it's grizzly and lion hunting. You absolutely never know how a given day of buffalo hunting will turn out. You might hike all day without a shot, you may kill one the easy way (through the lungs of an unagitated bull @ 100 yds.) or you may kill one at 20 FEET, and I've done it all ways. You may also survive a scary episode that'll make you wish you stayed home in bed that day. You may also live with the memory of a close and dear friend killed by a Cape buffalo, as I do each and every day of my life.........

Either way, the prudent hunter will put a margin of error on his side by going with a cartridge that's adequate under ALL conditions, not just ideal conditions. There is an element of RESPECT, and thus, preparedness that you can demonstrate and inject into the whole program that just might save your life, or the life of someone else.

This isn't some kid's game - some sort of inane experiment like trying to figure out if a 7mm-08 Improved will kill a whitetail as deader or deader'n than a 270 Win. - this is about you health, welfare and safety, plus that of others.

Is it really necessary to overstate the obvious, or is someone going to have to needlessly and stupidly get stompep or die (once again) for a misguided, convoluted theory in order to prove the point?

AD

You have just made all the other arguments go out the window. It is always better to use larger then needed for hunting or self defense.
When things go bad, bigger is always better.

When ever and where ever the 45/70 is challenged the faithful come to its defense. The loyality this cartridge enjoys is truely impressive.pak

The 45/70 was not made obsolete by the 30/40 Krag.It was rendered temporarilly obsolete by the end of the Indian wars,and the end of the buffalo.You will note the 45/70 never completely went away,in fact it may be more popular today as a sporting cartridge than ever before.When was the last time any rifles for the 30/40 were produced in any meaningful quantity.
The cartridge,in it's original form,with 500 gr. RN bullet was designed by the military for two major purposes.One was to retain lethality at very long ranges,which it did,and in 500-560 gr. or so bullets it still does.Retains it's accuracy way out there too,as seen in the 1000 yd. matches.
The other was to penetrate horses,big cavalry horses.Secondarilly to that,they wanted it to shoot through the horse and hit another horse in a massed charge,hopefully taking two combatants out of the fight on one shot.Tertiary to that was to be able to shoot through a horse,from whatever angle,and get the native american warrior hanging on to the off side while still shooting at you and your buddies.It did all of these things admirably.
Phil Sherman and Phil Sheridan were masters of total war.They honed their thinking during that famous march of theirs through Georgia.After the war,they directed the various campaigns against the Indians.They understood immediately that the entire economy of the plains tribes depended on the buffalo.
Accordingly the military made a strong effort to propagate and support buffalo hunting.That included often "surreptitiously" supplying lots of cartridges and bullets and powder to various buffalo hunting parties.Guess which cartridge they had available to supply without having to account for any unusual requests.
Buffalo hunting (or really shooting,there wasn't much real hunting involved) of the day consisted of shooting a stand.
That comes down to keep shooting as long as they stand.
To make that work ,the shooters had to be far enough away so that the noise wouldn't spook the herd ,and the bullet had to be effective enough to drop the buff pretty quickly.If it started running around wounded,the herd would stampede.To make this operation economically feasible,they had to drop as many buffalo as possible in one area,so that they could process 100-200 animals in one spot before packing up their goods and moving to the next "stand."
Yes the big fifties stand out in legend and lore as "the" buffalo rifle.But free ammo and components went a long way to making sure a hell of a lot of 45/70 cartridges were used too,and they worked very well....on "wild" not tame buffalo.Estimates are that there were 60,000,000-100,000,000 buffalo on the plains in the early 1870s.The buffalo hunting ended in the mid 1880s.With new buffalo constantly being born while all this was going on,perhaps 200,000,000 buffalo were actually slaughtered,perhaps even more.A very large number of them were shot with 45/70 and very similar cartridges.Almost all with one shot apiece.Almost all at 200-300 yds.The practice required them to be pretty much DRT,or the herds would run off before the crews were ready to process them.
Of course those guys were probably far better game shots on average than all but the very best today.They shot hundreds of head of game every week.However,those old cartridges did what they needed them to do.That is empirical evidence.

Steve1 just think what that old caliber is capable of with today's greatly superior powder and bullets.
Have you ever wondered why some claim the 45-70 has no use and consider it an old caliber, yet endear themselves to other calibers designed around black powder? Have you ever seen anyone dispute 2100fps from a 45-70 reload that loads for a 45-70. Or have you wondered how a 270gr .375 from an H&H is an accepted buffalo killer/stopper but a 500gr .458 @ even 1800fps is a stunt hunt?
Just this morning I watched an archer drop a cape buffalo with an arrow during a follow up to a prior hit. He hit the bull at the neck base on a facing shot, the bull took two steps backwards an fell over. A 450 Dakota couldn't have dropped it any faster without a CNS hit...fact is no caliber could've dropped it faster without a CNS hit and even the lowly 270 Win could drop a spitting mad bull in his tracks with a CNS hit.
I thinkyou hit it spot on when you posted early on how the "romantic calibers" have their following among so many. Some posters just seem to feel if they've never used it it can't be good. One even admitted to killing a couple with a 300WM but claims a 45-70/400-500 gr bullet won't stop a bull. Go figure!

I was asked my opinion on this subject and I have given that opinion based on my experiences and how I make choices that concern how I like to hunt. For me when I am after DG my 375 is my light rifle. I think the 375 is a very nice cartridge that I wish I could use more. I do not see it as a big cartridge personally. I could use a 9.3 but I really like the 375. I am allways prepared for buffalo. I will blow off a stalk on something else to go after buffalo. My experience also says that I am prepared for the unexpected that I have encountered as well. It is not uncommon for other DG hunters I have talked to to increase the horsepower of their DG gun after a safari or two. It is a very personal thing.
I dont care what you use.
Hell if my time wasn't so valuable I would go to africa every year and try the lever action for the hell of it. I dont have an unlimited amount of time. When I go after buffalo I am serious an do not have time to play around. I do not need to promote myself in anyway. I just have to get back from the safari, take care of my family, and work to pay for another safari.
We were all asked for an opinion and both sides made good points. In the end we are going to do what we want. We are all big guys and life experiences have made us who we are but do not take cheap comments that degrade life experiences.
Their is not end to this discussion but for me I do not see it going any where else.

Obviously I have never shot a bison and never will. But I have penetrated (obliquely) a Wildebeeste three feet with a 180 grain Partition that ended up weighing 104 grains and measuring about 50 caliber. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that a much stiffer .30 caliber bullet, weighing up to perhaps 220 grains and propessed much faster to stret with, will penetrate further than a .458 bullet with lower SD at 1500 fps.

[quote=IndyCA35 You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that a much stiffer .30 caliber bullet, weighing up to perhaps 220 grains and propessed much faster to stret with, will penetrate further than a .458 bullet with lower SD at 1500 fps. [/quote]

And you have tried this and know for a fact that a 220 grain .30 Cal. will out pentrate a 450 to 500 grain 45/70 bullet??

Steve, I think you miss the point.

Sure the 30-40 is not chambered today. That's because of a new technological improvement invented in 1898 that allowed rimless cartridges to be used in bolt action rifles. They feed better and the Krag could not be used with clip loading. Today we have the .308 Winchester, just about the same ballistically as a 30-40.

And I suspect the only reason the Army standardized on the 45-70 in the 1870s was because smokeless powder had not been invented, not because of any vaunted penetration. It's pretty obvious what the Army did instead as soon as smokeless powder was invented.

Now one point I would like to correct: The 45-70 is a TERRIBLE 1000-yard rifle. Granted there might be special matches some place requiring you to shoot the 45-70. But aside from those, it's a non-starter. This is the 100th anniversary of the National Rifle Championships, held at Camp Perry, Ohio, every August. These matches include the scope sight championship (the Wimbledon Cup) and the iron sight championship (the Leech Cup). In all that time, no one has EVER won or come close with a 45-70. For 20 years the 30-06 ruled, then the 300H&H and, later, the shorter 300 magnums. Lately the cartridge of choice is the 6.5-284, though long range championships have been won at least once by the 6XC.

If you don't believe this, come to Camp Perry next month and enter the Wimbledon with a 45-70. I'll shoot a .308. Wanna bet who wins?

Indy,

Another case of never done it, but know all about it.

There are damn few .30 caliber expanding bullets that will penetrate all the way through a big bull bison's chest. A hard-cast .45-70 will do just as well, and usually better--and who limited the .45-70 to 1500 fps? That is faster than it can push a heavy bullet with black powder, but not nearly what it can do with smokeless. Which, I believe, is where this twisted web began.

You might also be interested to know that a gunsmith friend of mine, whith a Pressure Trace system, just did a bunch of tests with the .450 Marlin (same case capacity as the .45-70), .458 Winchester and .458 Lott. When loaded to the same pressures, the Lott showed around 250 fps advantage over the Marlin, with the Winchester in between. That's right, the Marlin could break 2000 fps with a 500-grain bullet, the .458 2150, and the Lott 2250.

Of course we have also seen here a few people inimating that the .458 Winchester really ins't quite, you know, totally adequate for buffalo, being as how the case capacity is a little too small and....

Next thing you know there will be a call to outlaw any cartridge generating less than 5000 foot-pounds with a 400-grain bullet. Isn't that sort of the direction this is logically headed?

JB

Very good post accurate and to the point.....+1

Two nearly identical shots on moose: broadside through the shoulders involving centerpunching the onside scapula, both more than 25 but less than 50 yards; both bullets "bonded premiums," the first 45-70, the second 30-06, both animals 1000 pound plus bulls, and both bullets recovered in virtually the same position, against the far side hide.



300 Speer Uni-Cor�



180 Woodleigh Weldcore�

(Shouldn't the 30-06 have penetrated better in this case given the choices of bullets?)

As I stated before, I have no experience shooting Cape Buff. However, I have seen the mass of the mounts and can tell something of their size based thereon. I would surmise that they would be at least as hard on bullets as the biggest North American ungulates, perhaps (probably) more so.

How about the esteemed 340 Weatherby and the vaunted-for-penetration Barnes-X bullet?

Another broadside moose, probably at least 1500 pounds, this one at around 200 yards. The bullet didn't exit although it did take out massive shoulder bones, a "stopping shot" if you will.



225X


One almost needs to see how "easily" a well constructed animal can stop even some great bullets from "powerful" rifles to understand the limitations. I don't doubt the thoughts and advice of some of the African experience guys here.

But at what pressure is the .450 Marlin operating at to achieve 2000 fps with a 500 gr bullet? Loaded to the same pressures as the .458 Win and the .458 Lott implies to me that all three cartridges were loaded to around 50,000-52,000 CUP (or whatever the Piezo PSI number is). A .450 Marlin cartridge loaded to that pressure would probably be fine in a bolt action or falling block, but isn't it outside the safe pressure range for a lever action rifle (Marlin or other make)?

-Bob F.

no it's not 60,000 is about top end on a Marlin 1895. I've personally pushed my 45-70 to 62,000 ...no sticky action, flattened primers,etc...but one whale of a recoil!

MoccasinJoe1,

According to the A-Square Manual:

.458 Winchester Magnum
Pressures Allowable, Maximum Average:
53,000 CUP
62,000 PSI

According to the Speer Reloading Manual #14 (page 711), "The .450 Marlin has a maximum average pressure of 43,500 PSI." I rather doubt 60,000 PSI is safe or prudent in a Marlin 1895 lever action.

-Bob F.

Let us forget all that. I must admit that I was getting a little far afield from what started all this, Brian Pearce's article.

I just read it again, to clarify the points:

1) The load was a 405-grain semi-flat-point (.340 aross the flat) jacketed solid at 1800 fps. It chronographed a few fps under 1800 fps from the 22" barrel of Brian's Marlin. Pressure was 30,000 psi.

2) His PH's were suspicious of it, since they had seen .45-70's used before. Under Brian's questioning, it turned out all previous .45-70's had been used with 300-grain softpoint factory loads.

3) Brian had to prove his rifle (and his shooting) because of PH skepticism. One of the animals killed before the buffalo was a big zebra, where the 405 penetrated 5 feet.

4) Brian shot the big bull through both shoulders (bone) at about 100 yards, about 1/3 of the way up, perfect according to most PH's. The bullet broke both shoulders and exited, whereupon it also hit a smaller cow through both shoulders. The cow dropped on the spot. This first bullet was recovered under the hide on the far side of the cow.

5) Brian had been coached on keeping shooting, so he did, putting one up the rump of the bull as it turned, and then one broadside through both hindquarters (all he could see at that point). The rump shot went through intestines, paunch, and top of the heart, and was recovered from the brisket. The hind end shot exited, going through both legs.

6) The bull went 25 yards before keeling over, the cow 0.

Please explain how this amounts to inadequate pentration--or indeed inadequate performance in any way.

JB

It doesn't.............

Mule Deer,

Dang if I can explain it. But then, I'm one of those that has not hunted Cape Buffalo. Of course, the ballistics of Brian's load is similar to the 450/400 Nitro Express except that the 405 gr .458 bullet has less sectional density than the .40 caliber (.408"/.411") 400 gr bullet. And the 450/400s, both 3" and 3.25", had factory spec velocities of 2100-2150 fps although actual velocities were probably a little less. (The original Kynoch ballistics of the .404 Jeffery were also similar with a .423" 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps.)

My best GUESS: Brian's load was still marginal but it was on just the "right side" of marginal to be effective. Also, Brian used a true jacketed solid and not a hard cast lead bullet. (The hard cast lead bullet always seem to enter into these .45-70 discussions.)

So, Mule Deer, the next time you hunt Cape Buffalo, or you going to trade in your .416 Rigby for a .45-70?

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Don't know. Am probably going next year, and bounce back and forth among several rifles, from my 9.3x74R double (very tempting, especially since it can hold a solid in one barrel and a soft in the other) and a .45 of some sort.

JB