Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire?

I've been meaning to post this theme for a while and get your feedback as to what is real-world velocity increase due to some efficiencies (better case, powder, bullet, throating etc.) vs what is "no free lunch" and not worth the hassle.

I frequent other forum sites and there seems to be multiple emerging ways claiming significant increases in cartridge velocity:

1. Using Gunwerks or ADG brass- more case capacity? combined with RL23 (some claim other powders like RL26) to achieve 3300 fps out of a 300 Win Mag using 181 gr Hammer bullets. This seems very high and no powder charge was listed only velocity increases.

2. Using "Absolute" bullets from Hammer Bullets to get higher velocity. Claims of 300 Rum velocities from 300 Win Mag. and 300 Win Mag. velocities from a 30-06.

3. "+P Throating": Claims, that with special patented barrel treatment can, depending on cartridge, gain 100+fps more velocity: "...can help you get more velocity out of your standard chambering." Video link here: https://defensiveedge.net/what-is-p-throating/

Have any of you experimented with these or are you familiar enough with the concepts to share an opinion? Generally, is accuracy adversely affected at all or rifle/load dependent? I'm curious and want to learn something new. My initial reaction is that you cannot achieve more velocity without more pressure (which at some point can be dangerous) but that is only part of the overall picture since there might be ways to be more efficient or lower pressure to get more powder in the case etc...and to state the obvious, extra velocity is only useful if accuracy come along with it.

What's the point of an extra 100 fps or so and all the machinations it takes squeeze it out?

Here goes from a non gun writer.

1. Higher capacity cases require more powder to get back up to the pressure and velocity of lower capacity cases. In some instances you can exceed the velocity slightly above the lessor capacity case, but usually you are also increasing pressure.

2. Abosolute bullets are a form of two diameter bullet. This has been used to reduce pressure for a long time. Most notably it was used in the .264 Win. Mag when the cartridge fell short of projected velocities. It did help some.

3. Plus P throating: The +P from what I can gather is a form of free boring but it is accomplished by reducing the angle of the leade. A 1 degree angle was fairly standard for a target leade they may be going to an even more gradual angle, he didn't say.

Each of these things will initially require more powder to get back up to where you would have been without. Can you go above where you previously were? I think it will vary with the cartridge and in some cases it appears you can: 264 Win.Mag., 7x61 S&H and some of the Weatherby cartridges. I would be skeptical of anything over 100 fps increase unless there was pressure testing done before and after. All these things are good but the typical reloader Joe just uses them to use a heavy hand on the powder scale and then declares them a miraculous success.

Which is often my question--partly because I have often tried various techniques for another 100 (or even 150) fps. These have included:

New powders
New bullets
"Improved" cartridges
Longer barrels

Here's what I have found:
They can all work, but in general I have not been able to observe any difference in field performance with another 100-150 fps at "normal" ranges, say out to 500 yards. This means "killing power," however defined, AND trajectory/wind drift with the SAME bullet.

One other thing I've noticed is that once we jack up muzzle velocity another 100-150 fps, as in using RL-26 to increase 150-grain bullets in the .270 Winchester to over 3000 fps, is the rifle then recoils more like a 7mm magnum. And one long-time "advantage" of the .270 over various 7mm magnums (and I have used a lot of them, considerably) is less recoil. When a .270 kicks like a 7mm magnum we have lost that.

But when we use a 6.5mm cartridge with higher-BC bullets, at more-or-less .270 muzzle velocities, then we have less wind-drift AND recoil with similar "killing power" at longer ranges.

However, the longer I hunt the less difference I see in the "killing power" of various cartridges, within some broad parameters. Where you hit them matters far more than 100 fps of extra muzzle velocity--which is less than 100 fps at 500 yards.

Simplest way to realise higher velocity is to buy a rifle with a 24 or 26" barrel and use it that way without whining about how long it is. Some of the monometals are reported to punch way above their weight class like the 130 gr 30 cal ttsx barnes that would sure give a vel gain. Mb

Have found a LOT of barrels don't gain any velocity with 2-3" extra length with the same loads.

The one way they consistently DO gain 100 fps is when using more powder.

M.D, That's interesting. Could you please expand on that.

The other day I had a guy tell me he gets an "honest" 5000 fps out of his 17 Rem with 20gr Vmax s "all day long". Sometimes more powder equals more stupid.

The average velocity loss when the SAME barrel is shortened is around 25 fps per inch. This has been demonstrated by many experiments over the years--including miine.

But different barrels often (perhaps even usually) have slightly different chamber dimensions, bore/groove dimensions, throat lengths and rifling angles, etc. etc. As a result, some longer barrels won't achieve much--or any--"extra" velocity with the same loads.

Another point: As with "improved" versions of various standard rounds, many handloaders get more velocity out of longer barrels because they work up loads by looking at traditional "pressure signs," such as primer appearance, bolt lift, ejector-hole marks on the case head, etc. These can be caused by other things, but also often don't show up until pressures are around 70,000 or even 75.000 PSI--far higher than any SAAMI pressures.

This means that most of the extra velocity is often not due to the extra case capacity of an improved round, or 2-4" of barrel length, or (especially) a tiny bit of extra "volume" is some brass. Instead it's due to pushing brass to its limits--which isn't very safe.

Thanks, M.D. Understood.

I just give the gun a little push when I pull the trigger. A good jumpstart give tons of extra velocity. Or is that energy?....

I ran a 7mm SAUM in a full on 17 pound bench gun.
The idea was to run a 195g EOL It was set up with a "bore rider" free bore.
I tried two different barrels from very well known makers. One with a 1-8 twist other with 1-7.5 twist.
I pulled my hair out trying to make it competive.
Never had any luck with the 195..
Unreal velocity. I leaned hard on this thing and never opened a primer pocket. Which even now I find hard to believe..
Finally got the 180 hybrid to kinda shoot but it wasn't going to win any matches.
Eventually rechambered for my 300 SAUM.
Took a couple of matches to get the cases ironed out and won the 3rd match I shot with that barrel against 160 other guys..
Buddie had the bore rider in a 284 Win.
He's not shooting it any more either.....

Dace

Another point, often missed, is that a 100 fps increase at the muzzle is nothing like a 100 fps increase at 500 yds. Depending on the bullet, it might be half that.
I messed around with freebore enough, 35 years ago, to convince myself it didn't make much difference in velocity. New powder may offer some advantage but not always. My best velocity in my 6 BR was with IMR4320. I've not seen any powder which did much more than 4350 does in the 30/06.
As others have already said, that 100 fps doesn't really mean much in the end. GD

Plus 1...........

I wouldn’t bother. I doubt any increase in velocity will matter much when actually shooting game. I personally can’t stand the Gunwerks westies, so my opinion is probably a little biased.

Better yet, run towards the target as you pull the trigger. At my top speed that might get me two or three fps.

Easiest way to increase velocity is to simply go to a bigger case.

I played around with a .30-06 AI for a while, fussing over getting a meaningful velocity increase over the standard case. The .300 WinMag did that handily...

NOT a Gun Writer or Wannabe Gun Writer

Vic you beat me tuit ! I've been here on the 'fire' since 2010 and so many know I'm a speed freak ! ain't ashamed.

There are reasons I like the 270/280, 7 RM, 300 WM et.al. and Velocity is one of em.

* this is important to me * when you don't have time to
1. range 2. read chart 3. dial 4. THEN aim..... speed is your friend.

Jerry

If you need more velocity go to a bigger cartridge. Having a rifle blow up while you are holding it doesn’t sound like much fun.

I'm not so much a pure speed demon, where I hunt I can get by with a .30-30 most of the time and the faster cartridges tend to be a little destructive with the close-in shots.

BUT.

The occasional long shot can be had, so I've gotten to really like the .308 Win/165 BT @ 2700 fps combo. Easy on meat (and me) up close but can still drop a deer at 400 yards without fuss.

I like that versatility though the little .30 WCF has bagged a lot of deer, bear, and piggies for me. It just has somewhat of a "reach" limit and you have to respect that. I shot a deer at 236 yards with it and the evidence was the bullets weren't expanding too much, but at that distance, the .308 is right in the middle of its working velocity of the bullets I use.

If you like high speed, there is that advantage of the flat trajectory, and if I hunted in a more open area, that's most likely the way I'd lean.