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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: huntsman22] #15441250 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by huntsman22
I just give the gun a little push when I pull the trigger. A good jumpstart give tons of extra velocity. Or is that energy?....


You can figure it out with this formula: E=MC pie.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: jwp475] #15441322 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Have found a LOT of barrels don't gain any velocity with 2-3" extra length with the same loads.

The one way they consistently DO gain 100 fps is when using more powder.


Plus 1...........


Well, there is always duplex loading (the REAL one - not mixing powders); it did shorten WWII by at least a year. wink


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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: smokepole] #15441360 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by huntsman22
I just give the gun a little push when I pull the trigger. A good jumpstart give tons of extra velocity. Or is that energy?....


You can figure it out with this formula: E=MC pie.

Agreed. And it is different for hunting, because I use pumpkin pie in the formula when solving for hunting scenarios, given the time of year when hunting happens.


I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15441394 11/22/20
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Simple. Buy a Weatherby......


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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: HuntnShoot] #15441408 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by HuntnShoot
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by huntsman22
I just give the gun a little push when I pull the trigger. A good jumpstart give tons of extra velocity. Or is that energy?....


You can figure it out with this formula: E=MC pie.

Agreed. And it is different for hunting, because I use pumpkin pie in the formula when solving for hunting scenarios, given the time of year when hunting happens.


That's right: pumpkin until you kill the first deer, then mincemeat.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15441418 11/22/20
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One would think, with the number of very well to do members here, some generous soul would donate a 6.5 Arisaka...load it with a case full of Bullseye, a solid copper bullet and chrono it for our edification. The donor could name it as he pleased, but the "6.5 Totemo Hayai" just rolls off the tongue. Wonder what 'Quickload' predicts for velocity?


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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15441627 11/22/20
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Most Americans have been feed a steady diet of the lie "more speed is better" and in many, in fact most cases, it's not true.

I have done it all at one time or another killing more game animals than I can count in the last 58 years and I have used many many cartridges. It's been exactly as Muledeer said in his post: I could not see any real difference between how well the older cartridges and the super speed new ones killed game if I used the same type of bullet in both. And a bullet that holds together in a slower impact kills better, sometimes a lot better, then one that breaks into metal sand, because it's going too fast at impact.

In my 7mms I have killed game with 7X57s and 7MM Weatherby mags (and also a 280 and a 7MM Reming Mag) and I saw NO difference on how well they killed elk if I used the same bullets in the "slow" 7X57 and the fast 7MM Weatherby.

In 30 cals, well..... I have killed game with two 30-30s three 300 Savages, a 30-40 Krag, a 7.5 Swiss, nine 308 Winchesters, six 30-06s, two 300 H&Hs, a 300 Winchester, two 308 Normas, a 300 Weatherby and a 30/378 Weatherby. When Using a 165 grain bullets the 308 Winchester and 30-06 seem to do at least as well as my 30/378 Weatherby Mag did when killing elk and and in the cases where the bullets would not stay together from the 30-378, the 308 and 30-06 did notably better. Velocity-worshipers will scream, but that's the truth. I think of the super-mags as guns that should be married to solid expanding bullets like GMX and TSX types so 'blow-ups' don't cause problems if the shots are closer then 300 yards.

In my hunting with 57 years of it behind me as a hunter and a guide, and having hunting in many states and several countries, I can tell you that stepping up from a 7X57 to a 7MM Weatherby Mag both firing the same bullet showed be no extra stopping or killing effects on deer or elk and I do mean none at all. Stepping up from a 30-06 to a 30/378 also killed game about the same in some cases, with the bad cases in this particular comparison all being from the 30/378--- when the bullets broke up and the elk ran off a ways. In it's defense, I will say I never lot one, but the supper power of the big magnum didn't seem to matter to the game much. The 30-06 out performed the 30/378 if I compare the quickness of total kills on elk and deer with both shells. Not by a lot, but the 30/378 DID NOT beat the 30-06 and that is the point of this post.

So if loading your cartridge to get more velocity is a goal, I would ask what is the reason?
Speed = speed.
Speed DOES NOT = better kills ----------------unless you are going to add a LOT of speed, as in 800-1200 FPS. Going form a 30-30 Winchester to a 300 Weatherby Mag or a 30/378 is such a jump. But gaining 100 FPS over a standard 308 is of no real value however. Having killed a lot of game with 30-06s and comparing them to the various 300 mags I have owned and used I can say the killing effects have all be very close tho the same.

If you want to see how fast the shell can be pushed for the purpose of seeing how fast it can be pushed, so be it. That's like drag racing. It's about speed and there is no reason do do anything except to gain speed.

But if real-world use of the gun for hunting or even fighting is the end-game, more speed may work against you (for example, on a hot day) and gaining 50-100 FPS is going to do NOTHING for you for killing anything.

Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: szihn] #15441634 11/22/20
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Good post!


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)

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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15442169 11/22/20
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Another point is at least with some VLD target bullets the sweet spot for accuracy is somewhere around 2,900 fps. There may be another accuracy node at higher velocities but what it is I have no idea. The early 1,000 yard shooters tried to compensate with more velocity by using cartridges like the 6.5-300 WWH but you don't see that many of the big cartridges on the firing lines these days. Things pretty much stop with the standard 300 magnums or improved versions of them., and the small bores have proliferated.


"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: szihn] #15442381 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by szihn
Most Americans have been feed a steady diet of the lie "more speed is better" and in many, in fact most cases, it's not true.

I have done it all at one time or another killing more game animals than I can count in the last 58 years and I have used many many cartridges. It's been exactly as Muledeer said in his post: I could not see any real difference between how well the older cartridges and the super speed new ones killed game if I used the same type of bullet in both. And a bullet that holds together in a slower impact kills better, sometimes a lot better, then one that breaks into metal sand, because it's going too fast at impact.

In my 7mms I have killed game with 7X57s and 7MM Weatherby mags (and also a 280 and a 7MM Reming Mag) and I saw NO difference on how well they killed elk if I used the same bullets in the "slow" 7X57 and the fast 7MM Weatherby.

In 30 cals, well..... I have killed game with two 30-30s three 300 Savages, a 30-40 Krag, a 7.5 Swiss, nine 308 Winchesters, six 30-06s, two 300 H&Hs, a 300 Winchester, two 308 Normas, a 300 Weatherby and a 30/378 Weatherby. When Using a 165 grain bullets the 308 Winchester and 30-06 seem to do at least as well as my 30/378 Weatherby Mag did when killing elk and and in the cases where the bullets would not stay together from the 30-378, the 308 and 30-06 did notably better. Velocity-worshipers will scream, but that's the truth. I think of the super-mags as guns that should be married to solid expanding bullets like GMX and TSX types so 'blow-ups' don't cause problems if the shots are closer then 300 yards.

In my hunting with 57 years of it behind me as a hunter and a guide, and having hunting in many states and several countries, I can tell you that stepping up from a 7X57 to a 7MM Weatherby Mag both firing the same bullet showed be no extra stopping or killing effects on deer or elk and I do mean none at all. Stepping up from a 30-06 to a 30/378 also killed game about the same in some cases, with the bad cases in this particular comparison all being from the 30/378--- when the bullets broke up and the elk ran off a ways. In it's defense, I will say I never lot one, but the supper power of the big magnum didn't seem to matter to the game much. The 30-06 out performed the 30/378 if I compare the quickness of total kills on elk and deer with both shells. Not by a lot, but the 30/378 DID NOT beat the 30-06 and that is the point of this post.

So if loading your cartridge to get more velocity is a goal, I would ask what is the reason?
Speed = speed.
Speed DOES NOT = better kills ----------------unless you are going to add a LOT of speed, as in 800-1200 FPS. Going form a 30-30 Winchester to a 300 Weatherby Mag or a 30/378 is such a jump. But gaining 100 FPS over a standard 308 is of no real value however. Having killed a lot of game with 30-06s and comparing them to the various 300 mags I have owned and used I can say the killing effects have all be very close tho the same.

If you want to see how fast the shell can be pushed for the purpose of seeing how fast it can be pushed, so be it. That's like drag racing. It's about speed and there is no reason do do anything except to gain speed.

But if real-world use of the gun for hunting or even fighting is the end-game, more speed may work against you (for example, on a hot day) and gaining 50-100 FPS is going to do NOTHING for you for killing anything.


Szihn -

I agree with you as far as you went.

Speed does give you flatter trajectory !

Jerry

ps; I'm not talking 100-150 fps.

Last edited by jwall; 11/22/20.

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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15442568 11/22/20
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Mechanics are taught to select the proper tool for the job. If one applies the "logic" of many campfire members to the trades, builders would frame houses using sledge hammers. smile

If we load old timey cartridges like the 30-06, 250 Savage or 225 Win using propellants and bullets developed since 1965 for example, we would have improved downrange performance. Throw in a better understanding of rifle construction, proper rifling twists, vastly better optics and modern synthetic stocks and you catapult cartridge performance to previously unknown levels.(no pun intended)

Some have already discovered what can be done with better bullets and improved propellants shot from pipsqueaks like the 223.

But if you didn't use copper or bonded bullets, and stuck with old fashioned cup and core ones, ask yourself how could hunters in the dim times have taken so many deer, moose, buffalo, etc. with inferior cartridges like the 30-30, 25-35 or 303 Savage, 7x57, 303 British, etc?

But something is missing. The original question was,

I've been meaning to post this theme for a while and get your feedback as to what is real-world velocity increase due to some efficiencies (better case, powder, bullet, throating etc.) vs what is "no free lunch" and not worth the hassle.

Muzzle velocity is the least important variable when hunting. Proper shot placement is the thing, with a bullet that will function properly at the velocity it's travelling at the time of impact.

You can play around with different powders or bullets for more velocity, but your own limitations will make more of a difference. When I experiment with different powders and bullets I only consider accuracy and the velocity necessary at the expected range of bullet impact.

People talk about the latest bullets, powders, rifles and optics, but rarely speak about shooting. Not BR type shooting, but simply practising with their favourite load, designed to get the job done. I would spend less time trying to figure out how to squeeze an extra few fps from a bullet, and more time shooting .

Shoot more and put the bullet where it needs to go. Technology will not buy performance.

Even calling in an air strike doesn't always produce the desired result.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: szihn] #15443704 11/22/20
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Excellent point.

For me, it's not that velocity kills better (it only does to a point, as in your example, then diminishing returns). It's that velocity best deals with the unknown 'wind drift' factor. Will 100 fps help...not practically...but going from a 30-06 to a 30-378 Wby (about +400 fps using 180gr bullets?) shooting across a canyon you gain significant wind advantage or call it margin of error, using same bullets, depending of course on how fast the wind is blowing and how far you can shoot at proficiently. If you judge wind and practice often, then maybe you can account for the wind properly almost each and every time but velocity may make up for the almost factor when you don't notice the extra downdraft etc. How do you normally deal with wind? It was blowing fiercely about 1 month ago when I was in Wyoming...

The Hammer Bullet claims are similar. That is, that you can increase velocity by 300+fps (if you think that traditionally a 300 Win Mag pushes a 180gr bullet at around 3100fps, then they are claiming that you can push their 178gr to 3400+fps, how or if safe and sustainable is the unknown), and all else being equal (hunter/shooting proficiency), does this extra velocity (or velocity from another method) make a difference on an animal at longer range if you misread the wind?


Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15443844 11/22/20
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If you feel that you want to test their claims, you will have to pony up and try.

I wouldn't pay that amount of money for their products, and am suspicious of their claims. You are welcome to educate us, and I am not being a smart ass. Perhaps someone else is interested enough to discuss this with you, or better still, debate things in their forum. That might be a better arena.

Cheers.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
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Proverbs 22:10: Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15444047 11/22/20
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Interestingly, I bought some of their bullets (the regular Hammer Hunters) and am having someone development a load. The "Absolute" version is new (to me).

I'm more curious and want to learn from people's experiences with these different types of velocity gains and how people evaluate any velocity gains in terms of wind drift advantages, if any? Happy to sit back and learn some more.

Thanks and as an aside, I shot one of my first WT deer with a 303 British cartridge. Seems like one out of every 15 deer rifles in Eastern Canada at the time was a Lee Enfield in some modified or original form.

Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: hanco] #15444498 11/22/20
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Originally Posted by hanco
If you need more velocity go to a bigger cartridge. Having a rifle blow up while you are holding it doesn’t sound like much fun.

I can assure you 'tis not. Even when it holds together.


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Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: Mule Deer] #15447019 11/23/20
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer


One other thing I've noticed is that once we jack up muzzle velocity another 100-150 fps, as in using RL-26 to increase 150-grain bullets in the .270 Winchester to over 3000 fps, is the rifle then recoils more like a 7mm magnum. And one long-time "advantage" of the .270 over various 7mm magnums (and I have used a lot of them, considerably) is less recoil. When a .270 kicks like a 7mm magnum we have lost that.


Recoil was a concern in my light 270's when I saw the velocities RL-26 was producing. Even though I know bullet weight and velocity plus weight of powder charge all equals X amount of recoil, my lightweight 270's don't recoil anything like 7mmRM's I've owned in the past. Yes, I could tell a difference in recoil when going to ~2800 fps to ~3000 fps, but it's still quite tolerable to me. I don't consider myself particularly recoil insensitive and tend to avoid owning heavy recoiling rifles.

Well, there is my sub 7 lb 30-06 AI with 200 gr Partitions. It does kick similar to a 300 WM. But I fully intend to keep it around in case any Zombie Brontosaurus's ever invade......


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15451003 11/24/20
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Blistering velocity is over rated unless you're shooting 400+ yards a lot. I worry more about hitting stuff than how fast it gets there.

Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: CanadianLefty] #15452112 11/24/20
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Originally Posted by CanadianLefty
I've been meaning to post this theme for a while and get your feedback as to what is real-world velocity increase due to some efficiencies (better case, powder, bullet, throating etc.) vs what is "no free lunch" and not worth the hassle.

I frequent other forum sites and there seems to be multiple emerging ways claiming significant increases in cartridge velocity:

1. Using Gunwerks or ADG brass- more case capacity? combined with RL23 (some claim other powders like RL26) to achieve 3300 fps out of a 300 Win Mag using 181 gr Hammer bullets. This seems very high and no powder charge was listed only velocity increases.

2. Using "Absolute" bullets from Hammer Bullets to get higher velocity. Claims of 300 Rum velocities from 300 Win Mag. and 300 Win Mag. velocities from a 30-06.
Originally Posted by https://hammerbullets.com/product/308-cal-178g-absolute-hammer/
Absolute Hammer we saw velocity gains in the 30-06 that puts it in the 300 Winchester Magnum performance class. When tested in the 300 Winchester Magnum the velocity gain put it squarely in the 300 Ultramag class.


3. "+P Throating": Claims, that with special patented barrel treatment can, depending on cartridge, gain 100+fps more velocity: "...can help you get more velocity out of your standard chambering." Video link here: https://defensiveedge.net/what-is-p-throating/

Have any of you experimented with these or are you familiar enough with the concepts to share an opinion? Generally, is accuracy adversely affected at all or rifle/load dependent? I'm curious and want to learn something new. My initial reaction is that you cannot achieve more velocity without more pressure (which at some point can be dangerous) but that is only part of the overall picture since there might be ways to be more efficient or lower pressure to get more powder in the case etc...and to state the obvious, extra velocity is only useful if accuracy come along with it.


Lefty, If you really want to go wild, see if you can find a copy of the Wolfe Publishing book "Gibbs Cartridges" for not too much $$. The 2nd half of this thin (c.60 page) booklet covers just enough data on frontal ignition & duplex powder charges to get you started. In reality, it may be an exercise in futility, but it sounds like a lot of fun to try some of this stuff. If nothing else it's a good read. Also note the disclaimer on page XIII. It says (in larger than normal print) that Wolfe Publishing is not responsible for mishaps of any nature which might occur from use of the loading data in this book.

When I was younger & more inquisitive I had the means & the opportunity, but had neither the $$ or the time to fool around with this. Now that I have the time, opportunity, & could manage the means, there's no longer any real ambition to try it. Life is funny like that.


The old Dutchman once told me that fate watches over fools, drunks, & handloaders. Since getting on the internet, I'm pretty sure he was right.
Re: Ways to increase Velocity or playing with fire? [Re: alpinecrick] #15452749 11/25/20
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Casey, my .270 gets 3100 fps with 150s using published RL-26 data. I can assure you it kicks very much 150 s from a 7mm Remington Magnum--because I have a 7mm RM of the same weight.

Neither is particularly annoying to me, but I have guided Eastern whitetail hunters who purchased a 7mm Remington Magnum to "reach out and touch" pronghorns and mule deer, leaving the .243 or .308 Winchester they use on whitetails back home. And they could not shoot their new 7mm very well.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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