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[quote=Dirtfarmer]May want to check the velocity ceiling on those Bergers.

When I was working up loads for my 26 Nosler, I noticed that Berger had the top 140 gr. loads at 3,200 fps. I talked to a Berger tech and told him I could push the 140 VLD at lot faster than 3,200. He let me know they didn't recommend hunting VLD's to be shot faster than that, to use their target version with heavier jacket. I moved on to 140 NAB's, 120 TTSX and E-Tips..

Now, I'm loading the 156 EOL Berger in my 26 Nos, but not pushing them over 3K, more like 2.950, which should be OK, extremely accurate, BTW.

good advise thank you,Pete53

Pete, I run the 105 berger at 3300 and change. Accuracy is good and they kill just fine. They can destroy a fair amount of meat depending on what is hit, just like any other bullet designed to come apart. I have never had an entrance hole bigger than an exit hole so they do seem to do what they are supposed to...penetrate 1-3" and then open rapidly.

What's your twist for those 105's? My 10 twist .240 won't handle them, but does great with 100 NPT which are shorter than the high ogive bullets.

Hunting or Target Bergers @ 3,300 fps?

DF

My twist is 1:9. Had planned on 1:8 but my gunsmith had built a lot of these over the years and with the velocity potential of the 6-06 he recommended the 1:9 over the 1:8 unless mostly shooting the 115s. I listened to him and it worked out.

They are the Hunting VLDs.

According to the Berger tech, you could sub the target version if the hunting VLD was a bit too expansive. That's what was suggested to me when I was talking about pushing VLD velocity over 3,200 fps.

DF

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Good to know. I have an unopened box on the bench. Might be worth a shot! I have a buddy that shoots both in his custom .243. Said the targets didn't expand much at all on coyotes and he got runners. Might be a different story with a few hundred extra FPS.

MedRiver,

Dunno where you are in Montana, but one rule-of-thumb I discovered while crunching numbers from today's twist/stability programs (which in my experience are very accurate) is that every 5000 feet in altitude is just about equivalent to one inch tighter rifling twist.

Which is exactly why I had no difficulty with 140-grain Berger VLDs with 1-9 twist barrels in my part of Montana, where the bottom of the valley is around 4000 feet above sea level.

On each of the articles in Handloader or the Rifle what I’m most interested how the new whatever works “game”, sometimes paper - but rarely since I don’t shoot competition any more.
In particular, what bullets are good on what game and if possible real life experience of using a certain cartridge on specific game.
If a bullet shoots 1/4 MOA and shoots 3,500 FPS second is one thing, but I’m interested in what it does on deer, antelope, coyotes, prairie dogs, elk, or whatever.
In my life I’ve experienced too many bullet blow ups and now and then a bullet that doesn’t expand. So I rely on the writers who have hunted game more than I’ll ever be able too. If I just shoot game with what I know works, I’d probably still be shooting a ‘03 Springfield with 180 CL’s or Interlocks.
I really appreciate the work that gun writers do, especially your writings MD.

Bugger,

Thanks very much.

One of the biggies I've discovered is that big game bullets can change with time--both ways. I started using Hornady Spire Points back when they did not include the Interlock ring. They still worked pretty well, but apparently that was because they had a slightly harder-alloy core than some other cup-and-core bullets of the day.

Remington Core-Lokts had much thicker "sidewalls" back then, one reason they worked so well. That changed with the Pointed Soft-Points in the early 1990s, though not with the round-nose CLs.

The same sort of thing has happened with a lot of bullets--both ways, making them both "softer" and "harder." It's hard to keep up!

I agree on the velocity being a critical function there.

When you get over 3,200 fps, just see how they perform. If you're OK with the hunting version, good. If you think they're a bit expansive, then the target version may be an option. I'd think it would also depend on the size critter being hunted.

In Toxicology, they teach you the "poison is in the dose". With VLD's, the poison is in the velocity....

Seems to me those bullets (like a lot of bullets) have a definite velocity window for optimal terminal performance; they work very well within those designed parameters.

DF

Me too, and I'm learning a crap load of stuff I could never get on most forums. I'm getting to be all ears, instead of mostly mouth. Thanks everyone.

The Scenar works well in my 6mm AI at close to 3,400 fps. I have not shot any game with this combo yet but Bergers fragment more than I like and the Scenar has either a thicker jacket or harder core but performs like a Berger just not as aggressively. They could be a fall back option. Same with the A-Max and the ELD-X which I hope to test on game soon. The ELD-X has a thicker jacket.

Looking at cross sections of both bullets, seems the VDL and Scenar jackets are similar, both thin.

I'd venture that the Scenar core is harder lead, they seem to break up into larger pieces than VLD's, seem to exit better, IME. I've seen multiple exit holes in WT's with VLD's, never with a Scenar.

Both are super accurate. Check out Scenarshooter's portfolio of dead critters, courtesy of the Scenar.

DF

Really enjoyed the article, John! I was all set to build a 6mmAI, and now I'm having to rethink that.

Price dies first.

That may help you make your decision.

after 3 weeks in the north woods by the border with 2 of the 3 weeks hunting whitetail deer , i can say this only about 2 bucks i shot both with 115 gr, Berger VLD hunting bullets,out of my Ruger #1 257 Weatherby Mag. that has 1-10 twist, 27 inch Brux barrel on it. this rifle shot one 3/4 inch 3 shot group at 100 yards 1 inch high ,with RL.25 max powder load out of the Berger book so i thought good enough and went hunting,this rifle i have used for around 15 years so i know what this rifle is capable of. well the first buck i shot with the Berger 115 gr. bullet was at 150 yards ,i hit the top of the heart and the lungs bullet did fragment and just went completely out the other side of this buck that weighed 167 lbs. dress ,this buck went straight in the air when hit and landed 12 feet away stone dead. now the second buck fooled me i thought he was closer and smaller in size,i was very wrong the buck was a very big old deer dressed 205 lbs. when i found him 50 yards from where i shot he was big including his horns ,the 115 Berger bullet went thru both sides, tore has heart completely apart yes the bullet fragmented again but i kinda like how it killed those bucks. the 1st buck at 167 lbs. was shot opener was full of fat the 2nd buck at 205 lbs. 2weeks later had no fat and was a lot bigger older buck . i have not done a velocity reading on this load yet but its probably over 3200 fps? i also shot a doe at 75 yards with my new to me 100 year old 256 Newton rifle using 140 gr 6.5 Berger VLD target bullets that doe went 50 yards after it was hint thru the center of the lungs ,that bullet went completely thru the deer and did not fragment. yes i kinda like these Berger bullets for deer here in Northern Minnesota ,like i said i have very limited experience with these Berger bullets but 3 shots and 3 kills was good enough for me.hope all of you have had or are going to have a great fall hunt ! Pete53

I've knocked the snot out of a few deer with a Nosler 70gr ballistic tip in a 6mm/284.

Not too concerned about the cost of the dies. Adequate barrel length is more of an issue. I shoot everything suppressed these days, and over 24" starts to get pretty unwieldy. I'm afraid both rounds may need the longer barrel to get full potential of of the case.

The 6mm AI Forster dies were the second tier of pricing, not sure about the 6-06. The 06 brass is more plentiful and cheaper than the 6mm. No fire forming is needed for the 6-06, except that I think all cartridges need fire forming to fit the chamber, it is not required though. The 6MM AI you will rarely have to trim them.

I have not loaded for the others but the 6mm AI , 240 Weatherby, 6-284, & 6-06 are all in the same general velocity range +/- 100-150 fps based on pressure tested loads.

The smaller the capacity the longer the barrel life in some cases double from best to worst.