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Excuses, not reasons. Your allies are more apt to help you if you try to defend yourself and need help, rather than totally rely on others.
I agree but New Zealand does not 'totally rely 'on others, the argument is degrees of reliance. Bigger allies of course always want their clients paying more for defence assets usually made in the bigger country  Let's compare it with three countries with slightly larger populations. New Zealand has a population of 5 million. Norway, Denmark and Finland all have a population of less than 6 million, so they are slightly larger. Here are their military strengths--
New Zealand- 2 frigates, 2 light infantry battalions, one mechanized battalion, 3 MPA, no fighter/bombers, no armor.
Norway- 4 frigates, 6 subs, 6 corvettes, 1 armored brigade, 6 MPA, 44 F16 & 15 F35.
Denmark- 2 brigades, 1 tank battalion, 5 first line frigates, 4 patrol frigates, 41 F16, 4 MPA.
Finland- 100+ Leopald 2 tanks, 3 brigades, 8 FAC, 60 F18. None the size to materially resist China in area the size of the south pacific being my point. Also the countries you mention are each 50-200% economically larger than NZ. They enjoy the benefits of being part of the Euro hub, also being countries that are much 'cheaper to run' , compared to an island shipping everything from thousands of miles away- youd have noticed the difference between US and NZ prices when you were there. They have less money to buy the same level of toys. But again, I wasnt making an argument for the kiwis defence policy, more outlining some geography and logistics to those in the Northern hemisphere.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It did look sorta small, now that you mention it...  It is a moot point really as we annexed them some time ago, just didn't bother to say anything about it so as to not disturb the locals. We renamed it "that other island over there".
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It did look sorta small, now that you mention it... It is a moot point really as we annexed them some time ago, just didn't bother to say anything about it so as to not disturb the locals. We renamed it "that other island over there". Damn you're harsh.
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It did look sorta small, now that you mention it... It is a moot point really as we annexed them some time ago, just didn't bother to say anything about it so as to not disturb the locals. We renamed it "that other island over there". The arrogance of a country that controls a continent. Keep practicing, you will soon sound like a Texan!
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It did look sorta small, now that you mention it... It is a moot point really as we annexed them some time ago, just didn't bother to say anything about it so as to not disturb the locals. We renamed it "that other island over there". Just don't colonize them with snakes and spiders and they won't really care. They have really ferocious beagles at their ports of entry...
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Also the countries you mention are each 50-200% economically larger than NZ. They enjoy the benefits of being part of the Euro hub, also being countries that are much 'cheaper to run' , compared to an island shipping everything from thousands of miles away- youd have noticed the difference between US and NZ prices when you were there. They have less money to buy the same level of toys.
But again, I wasnt making an argument for the kiwis defence policy, more outlining some geography and logistics to those in the Northern hemisphere.
Once again, reread my post. I'm not suggesting that they match any of those countries in army, navy and air force. I just wish they would come close in one of them, the navy. Since they're not buying Gen 5 fighters, big transport aircraft, attack helicopters, tanks and subs, they should be able to afford 3-4 newer frigates and a few more MPAs. I'd suggest 3-4 Type 31s (look it up) and 2-3 more P8s (look them up, too). Even better would be Absalon class support ships. They'd be good for defense, humanitarian missions, EEZ enforcement and would also fit in seamlessly with the Aussie navy in a real war. Anything with China will be all air and naval. Nobody in their right minds would do land invasions against them. Maybe some raids on their little bases in the SCS.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
It did look sorta small, now that you mention it... It is a moot point really as we annexed them some time ago, just didn't bother to say anything about it so as to not disturb the locals. We renamed it "that other island over there". The arrogance of a country that controls a continent. Keep practicing, you will soon sound like a Texan! No problem, we were going to annex you lot as well but no one here could work out what to do with all those commie lefties you have there...so we left you alone. Maybe next time, if you are really lucky.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 808
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Campfire Regular
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Once again, reread my post. I'm not suggesting that they match any of those countries in army, navy and air force. I just wish they would come close in one of them, the navy. Since they're not buying Gen 5 fighters, big transport aircraft, attack helicopters, tanks and subs, they should be able to afford 3-4 newer frigates and a few more MPAs. I'd suggest 3-4 Type 31s (look it up) and 2-3 more P8s (look them up, too). Even better would be Absalon class support ships. They'd be good for defense, humanitarian missions, EEZ enforcement and would also fit in seamlessly with the Aussie navy in a real war. Anything with China will be all air and naval. Nobody in their right minds would do land invasions against them. Maybe some raids on their little bases in the SCS.
Again, same old argument, you just repeated it twice.
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Joined: May 2014
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As my mother used to say, "the yellow men will rule the world, it's in the bible". Oh, okay ma.
"The 257 Roberts, some people like to call it the “.257 Bob.” I think these people should be hung in trees where crows can peck at them." - David Petzal
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Campfire Tracker
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Once again, reread my post. I'm not suggesting that they match any of those countries in army, navy and air force. I just wish they would come close in one of them, the navy. Since they're not buying Gen 5 fighters, big transport aircraft, attack helicopters, tanks and subs, they should be able to afford 3-4 newer frigates and a few more MPAs. I'd suggest 3-4 Type 31s (look it up) and 2-3 more P8s (look them up, too). Even better would be Absalon class support ships. They'd be good for defense, humanitarian missions, EEZ enforcement and would also fit in seamlessly with the Aussie navy in a real war. Anything with China will be all air and naval. Nobody in their right minds would do land invasions against them. Maybe some raids on their little bases in the SCS.
Again, same old argument, you just repeated it twice. Yep, and you still haven't rebutted it. You give the same "if you can't beat them one on one, why bother trying". You must've gotten beaten up a lot in your life.
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Joined: May 2006
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Yep, and you still haven't rebutted it. You give the same "if you can't beat them one on one, why bother trying". You must've gotten beaten up a lot in your life.
Whats to rebutt. Your words were "you wish NZ tried slightly harder at defence". Good for you. My opinion was is it wont make much difference to resisting china and how much they should try is an argument I dont get into. Better luck next time understanding the debate, or lack thereof. As to being beaten up, well being ex military I can say I didnt win everything I got into. I do know enough to stay out of army vs army debates with COD playing millenials.
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Posts: 11,944
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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My father said as much 45 years ago.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Pretty sure your father was correct.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 76
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2017
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The last 12 months has proven what many have been saying for some time, Australia needs to develop better and more diverse markets for our exports and start making stuff ourselves instead of just exporting the raw materials, but our politicians always take the easy short term options, for instance look at Sweden, they mine iron ore just like us, but they make it in to steel, Swedish steel is known for its quality and sells for good money, most of our steel works have closed down, we just export the ore to China, and buy it back after they make stuff from it, same with wool, cotton, timber and countless other things, then they blackmail us because they can, cause they know they have us by the balls.
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Campfire Tracker
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China doesn't want our wine now - I think it was a $1.25 billion export, out of a total of $100 billion export to them or so.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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China has no interest in a level playing field, they wish a seat on the throne in a manner of speaking. Their weakness is an overwhelming lack of natural resources. Epic poker game it is. I recall that Japan got a little pissy when FDR cut off steel exports to them....led to their experience with mushroom clouds it did.
Politicians are, for the most part, idiots. Bitch slap them a few times and they will be better behaved.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Just to clear it up. The Aussi troops in the 60s and early 70s were great. I am not speaking to them. I am speaking to the current "men" of Oz from around 2015 until today. I am speaking to the people of Oz the surrendered their guns when a communist ordered them to so. Now they can be controlled. The compromised themselves right into safety and bliss.....................right? I see the same thing happening in my own country, and like all the defect to the other side, I have the utmost contempt for those American too.
Facts and historical truth can be dismissed, the "reasons" argued, and the blame passes, but you can't change the past or the truth.
And the people of Oz already surrendered to the communist in office and didn't resist at all.
The men of america bow down to the same policies any time they fill out a tax stamp for an SBR, silencer or machine gun. 1938 those gun control acts rolled out, you were still a pretty tough and traditional nation back then but I dont read any historical resistance to it. No shootouts with police, no storming city hall, no mass refusals forcing a reversal. Not then and not now. You took it just like a British subject would have. 80 years of happily filling out 'Communist paperwork' to own a slightly different type of item. Add to that another 20,000 pieces of legislation designed to circumvent your 2A over the last 120years. I dont recall seeing any mass refusals, town hall takeovers, militia action to reverse them. See this is what we call empty talk or blowharding. You could at any time show your own courage to resist such a law directly( maybe post a video of shortening a rifle barrel without your communist paperwork ). but of course its easier just to talk about everyone elses 'lack of courage' in your country and mine Very true. We the people have taken it in the ass for far too long as far as 2A is concerned.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,027
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,027 |
The Chinese understand gunboat diplomacy quite well.
Remember a few years ago when one of our carriers was denied their usual/normal visit to - I think - Singapore? That made the news, as did the rescinding of the denial a week or 2 later, without explanation.
A co-worker had a daughter in Naval Intelligence, Hawaii, at the time, and she passed on to her parents the reason the denial was rescinded.
In the interim, an entire carrier task force (Kitty Hawk?) had sailed the Strait of Taiwan. Pretty tight quarters!
That did not make the news.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Campfire Tracker
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Singapore is not part of China. Shanghai, perhaps?
Last edited by UPhiker; 11/27/20.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Simple enough, expand our markets and stop selling them shit.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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