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I haven't had a need to purchase powder for years, but today I was getting the documentation ready to deal with the recalled IMR 4007 SSC and noted that Hodgdon now owns or has the rights to IMR, WInchester, Ramshot and Accurate powders. Generally that leaves only Alliant and Vihtavouri as competitors. It is going to be interesting to see how Hodgdon consolidates its powders.

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Duh!


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Did Hodgdon get distribution of Norma with the acquisition of Western?


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It should be understood that Hodgdon is just the distributor for most of their powders. They only manufacture Goex black powder and a few of the substitutes. All the smokeless powder is purchased from other suppliers. There isn't a monopoly on smokeless powder, but there are few sources of it in the United States due to the inherent risks involved in manufacturing explosives/propellants/flammables, and the regulatory costs and risks, and what is practically a monopsony.

All the ball powders are made at St. Marks in Florida which is now owned by General Dynamics. I believe it was originally built/owned by Olin (the outfit that bought out the original Winchester), then it was sold by Olin (Winchester brand ammo) when they got out of the powder business. They sold it to ATK (Alliant). ATK itself had acquired Alliant from Hercules which was several companies by that name prior, but a large portion of it was originally Dupont. So ATK merged it Orbital Systems (this is all rocket stuff), and they spun off their sporting goods as a company called "Vista Outdoor" which includes the Alliant brand powder, Federal, CCI, Speer, RCBS and now Remington. ATK did not spin off the St. Marks plant as part of Vista Outdoors. That plant generates revenue primarily for government and military contracts and the sporting goods business is comparatively small. Then General Dynamics bought ATK, so now St. Marks is run by them.

The US-made flake and extruded powders are all made at New River Energetics at the Radford Arsenal. Alliant (ATK) ran that for a while, but BAE Systems has the current contract to run Radford overall.

I don't think there are any other smokeless plants in the US that are still operating. Does Lake City produce powder, or just cartridges? It's not likely that any will be built anytime soon. There are others in Canada, Australia, Belgium, Finland, and elsewhere. I live in a sparsely populated rural area and activists raise hell and gridlock the planning commission, county commission, the courts, and everything they can if someone wants to build a small slaughterhouse to process 60 head of cattle a week because it will stink. I can only imagine what the reaction would be to a proposal to build a large-scale nitroglycerin explosives plant. You have a better chance of building it on the moon.

Investors don't want to build that kind of thing anyway. They're into e-vehicles, green energy, 5G, meal kits, and stuff that millennials like. The only way to pay for a propellant plant would be with government contracts. Reloading hobbyists can't afford to build a powder plant. It's the US government and it's defense contractor suppliers that support St. Marks and Radford. Alliant, Hodgdon, Federal, Winchester, Remington, are just little side jobs.

Last edited by Western_Juniper; 12/03/20.
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Thank you Western Juniper. We appreciate the newbies edumakating us!


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The Australian government came very, very close to closing the ADI plant in Australia some years ago. But they decided to keep it open and spruce it up a bit.....which might account for the unavailability of the Hodgdon Extreme powders lately. Apparently it takes six months to process a batch of powder from start to finish. So even when the plant has finished refurbishing it could be a while before all powders are in production again.

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Don't confuse different businesses with a monopoly.

You don't have to control every aspect of a business to monopolize it.

If you control distribution on the vast majority of a product in a way
that inhibits competition, and allows you to control pricing and total
availability of that product, you have a monopoly.

Getting the government to look int it (which we don't want) is different than
what's easily apparent.


Consider University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. UPMC.

Once a hospital, they started an insurance company.
They branched out all over Western Pa,
Buying up a huge chunk of the hospitals.
Now they have a presence in Ireland? and are in Maryland and expanding.

Than refused to do business with Blue Cross/Shield. (Long story, shortened)
Forcing people to buy their insurance, if they want to be able to use it.

Now, they have used their control of the hospitals to strongarm the doctors.
If they want privileges at the hospitals, they have to sell out to UPMC.

There are no longer buildings that say Dr. John Smith Orthopedics.
Now, it's UPMC Orthopedics.
A number of our better docs have left. They aren't allowed to practice
medicine as a doctor caring for patients. As employees the are forced
to practice assembly line medicine. Have to meet per hour and per day quotas.
No flexibility in hours or able to see walking or make right now appointments.
Pigeon hole medicine only.

There was a Med-express type deal going to be opened here.
UPMC quietly announced plans to open one if their own.
Of course, the proposed one died on the vine. No one would be able
to use insurance there if it competed with UPMC.

They never built one. They only ensured you go to their ER. Helping
to keep it rolling in money with $300 co-pays.

All this while maintaining Tax Free status,
and paying CEO Romoff $8.5 million/year and 9 others over a million per year.


And nobody that matters thinks this is a monopoly!




Last edited by Dillonbuck; 12/04/20.

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Quote
Generally that leaves only Alliant and Vihtavouri as competitors. It is going to be interesting to see how Hodgdon consolidates its powders.


Yes and no.Take a step back in this. Who is actually making the powder? As I'm reading it, you've got a bunch of powder factories worldwide that are making huge batches of powder--tons of it, and then handing it off to Hodgdon to sell here in the States. Hodgdon does all the marketing, distribution, end-user support, etc and a value-added thing.

I used to work for a solder factory. We made and sold our brand-- by the ton to distributors, but we also OEM'd for others. We found it much easier and profitable to make and sell by the ton and let somebody else package and label it however they chose. We had a small label aluminum solder that sold like hotcakes down south for patching boats. We couldn't sell our own brand, but we'd bought this little company that got wiped out in a hurricane and used their labels on our product. Folks swore it was superior stuff, even though it was the same as our aluminum solder.

In some ways, Hodgdon has made itself more like Sears. They get everyone else to make their stuff and then label it as the Sears brand (Craftsman, Ted Williams, Diehard, etc) . Except they only recently started selling to end-users.


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If they are it’s OK... they are the good guys.

They are based in Kansas City BTW... so I am completely unbiased... cough.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Duh!

laugh


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Originally Posted by Theo Gallus
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Duh!

laugh


Well that's helpful.

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You don't need to be an economics guru to realize that controlling and consolidating the distribution of any product is never in the best interests of the consumer. I second the, "duh".


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Price will go up!!

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Hodgdon doesn't control the distribution of the powders. They control their brands. There is no barrier to getting into the powder business other than market forces outside Hodgdon's business. A year ago, you could have called up General Dynamics or BEA/NRE or one of the foreign plants and for the right amount of money gotten a contract for them to supply powder for your new brand. Get yourself a hazmat shipping certification from the DOT and build a packing plant where you receive the powder and pack it into bottles for UPS trucks to ship out. Open up your online storefront for powderpuff.com and start selling to reloaders in the 48.

Anyone that dared to do that would probably find out that selling new powders is hard because reloaders are brand-loyal, curmudgeonly, and that you don't really have anything to motivate them to work up new loads for your powders that do the same thing as the ones they've always bought. You'd also find the margins are poor. So if you did manage to gain a following through extensive marketing and advertising effort, your business would still be threadbare. Then if Vista Outdoors or Hodgdon came along with a good offer, you'd probably jump at it to get out.

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^^^^^This.


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Originally Posted by Western_Juniper
Hodgdon doesn't control the distribution of the powders. They control their brands. There is no barrier to getting into the powder business other than market forces outside Hodgdon's business. A year ago, you could have called up General Dynamics or BEA/NRE or one of the foreign plants and for the right amount of money gotten a contract for them to supply powder for your new brand. Get yourself a hazmat shipping certification from the DOT and build a packing plant where you receive the powder and pack it into bottles for UPS trucks to ship out. Open up your online storefront for powderpuff.com and start selling to reloaders in the 48.

Anyone that dared to do that would probably find out that selling new powders is hard because reloaders are brand-loyal, curmudgeonly, and that you don't really have anything to motivate them to work up new loads for your powders that do the same thing as the ones they've always bought. You'd also find the margins are poor. So if you did manage to gain a following through extensive marketing and advertising effort, your business would still be threadbare. Then if Vista Outdoors or Hodgdon came along with a good offer, you'd probably jump at it to get out.



Originally Posted by Mule Deer
^^^^^This.


Sounds like some new company I've seen advertised? Shooter's World or some such.

I've been thinking about trying some of theirs, haven't seen any locally though.


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In it is death and all you seek
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Originally Posted by NVhntr
Thank you Western Juniper. We appreciate the newbies edumakating us!

Some of us actually appreciate being educated whether it's from a 106 post member or a 35,000 post one.


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The price of powder has gone up. But I'm not sure about comparing prices/inflation and so forth. I'm pretty sure we'll never see powder sold for less than a dollar in paper bags again.


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Originally Posted by Valsdad
Originally Posted by Western_Juniper
Hodgdon doesn't control the distribution of the powders. They control their brands. There is no barrier to getting into the powder business other than market forces outside Hodgdon's business. A year ago, you could have called up General Dynamics or BEA/NRE or one of the foreign plants and for the right amount of money gotten a contract for them to supply powder for your new brand. Get yourself a hazmat shipping certification from the DOT and build a packing plant where you receive the powder and pack it into bottles for UPS trucks to ship out. Open up your online storefront for powderpuff.com and start selling to reloaders in the 48.

Anyone that dared to do that would probably find out that selling new powders is hard because reloaders are brand-loyal, curmudgeonly, and that you don't really have anything to motivate them to work up new loads for your powders that do the same thing as the ones they've always bought. You'd also find the margins are poor. So if you did manage to gain a following through extensive marketing and advertising effort, your business would still be threadbare. Then if Vista Outdoors or Hodgdon came along with a good offer, you'd probably jump at it to get out.



Originally Posted by Mule Deer
^^^^^This.


Sounds like some new company I've seen advertised? Shooter's World or some such.

I've been thinking about trying some of theirs, haven't seen any locally though.


Valsdad,

Shooters World is the retail version of powders offered by Explosia, who makes Lovex powders.

Many are identical to Accurate Arms powders. As an example Shooters World Auto Pistol is identical to AA #5.

This "New Company's" been making powder for 100 years. I discovered them when all this recent craziness hit, and so far, I've been very happy with the results, especially at $10 per pound less then Hodgdon's powders.

Many of their "tactical" ball powders are flash suppressed, so you get a nice flowing powder without the fireball.

Right now, they are the best value out there, and I suggest considering them for any new load development.

As much as I appreciate all Hodgdon's done for the shooting industry, when reasonable, I plan to support the underdog so we can all benefit from a more competitive environment. If more people had supported Western Powers while they were independent maybe they could of found a buyer other than Hodgdons.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 12/05/20.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Theo Gallus
Originally Posted by NVhntr
Thank you Western Juniper. We appreciate the newbies edumakating us!

Some of us actually appreciate being educated whether it's from a 106 post member or a 35,000 post one.


He might be new here, but I doubt he's new to shooting and reloading......just saying....


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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