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Grew up using a 20 Beretta Semi with 2 3/4 1oz 6 shot for primary load......modified choke.
How much does a 28 give up to a 20?
Use will be rabbits, dove, squirrel, and hopefully a Pheasant hunt if lucky.
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Give up a little power and range but most aren't using them at 50 yards? You need to know your limitations with it. Economical wise my vote would be a 20 guage but something to be said about an over and under in 28 guage! Make an awesome quail gun!
Last edited by Esox357; 12/09/20.
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Thanks for the reply. Excuse my ignorance, I assume a 28 OU would be a tad more petite, perhaps lighter, maybe easy to swing fast?
What's the concensus on BBL Length? 26 or 28? No doubt shells are easier to find with a 20, proper factory 28 loads are not inexpensive.
No odds are ranges would be most common to 30 yds, 40 at the outside on the bulk of any longer shots.
Anyone using SxS or mostly OU when using a double gun?
Last edited by 65BR; 12/09/20.
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How much does a 28 give up to a 20?
25% less shot. Which makes little difference on anything you center up inside of 25 yards or so, but patterns get thin quick past 30 yards. Couple dollars a box more for shells. True to scale 28's are very light and quick, but too light and quick to my taste. All of my field shooting is with 1100's and 870's, which weigh about the same as the 20 gauge frames they are built on.
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28ga 1oz loads probably dont give up much vs. 20ga 1oz loads......
Over pointing dogs, I dont think it matters.
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20 seems more practical. Buying shells, more availability and choices, usually. That said a light and svelte 28 is pretty sweet.
I’m far from a great wing shot but have found I connect more often with longer barrels. 28 or 30”.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Good info folks, appreciate you all !
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Vintage Browning Superposed Lightning 20g's are great lightweight field guns.
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The 28 gauge is a seductress. If built on a 28 gauge frame, it is a bit more petite and lighter. I shoot a couple at clays and hunt a fair bit with one.
In ballistics terms, it gives up very little to the 20 gauge, as for reasons not adequately quantified it seems to hit harder than it should with shot strings shorter than they deserve to be. I have found a 28 with good ammunition and a little choke to be very effective on game birds, including wild pheasants, to 35 yards (using 3/4 oz of shot).
However, I learned a long time ago that my shooting falls off pretty severely as the gun weight drops below 6#, so these days I have no flyweight guns, including the 28 gauge. There is no doubt that a 20 is more potent ballistically, and both gauges weigh about the same in my guns.
But there is a genuine cool factor - lithe, long barrels, small shells bumping in my pocket. My pet is a custom ordered o/u on a 28 gauge frame stocked to my dimensions with 30” barrels. It weighs 6# on the button and is a delight, my favorite shotgun. It goes out hunting more than any of the others, if that tells you anything. The 28 loses the logic argument, but wins my heart.
My last piece of advice is to buy a good 28 gauge reloader at the same time.
Last edited by GF1; 02/12/21.
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28ga 1oz loads probably dont give up much vs. 20ga 1oz loads......
Over pointing dogs, I dont think it matters. There is absolutely nothing to argue about in this response! As far as barrel length I wouldn't go any shorter then 28" and 30" would be what I want.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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28ga 1oz loads probably dont give up much vs. 20ga 1oz loads......
Over pointing dogs, I dont think it matters. A 1 oz load out of a 20 gauge will have a better pattern than a 28 with a 1 oz load And a 1oz load out of a 16 gauge will have a even better pattern And a 1 oz load out of a 12 gauge will have a even better pattern A 1 oz load in a 28 is useless. It shines with a 3/4 oz. load Patterns kill birds not load volume.
Music washes away the dust of everyday life Some people wait a lifetime to meet their favorite hunting and shooting buddy. Mine calls me dad ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/ZCL8Ws2r/JohnGult.jpg)
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Vintage Browning Superposed Lightning 20g's are great lightweight field guns. I have one listed in the classifieds I've been trying to sell. It's a nice gun, but I found a Pigeon Grade in the same configuration and don't need both. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...gauge-28-with-hartmann-case#Post15536890
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The loading ports on most 28ga. autos and pumps are narrow if you have large hands. I have owned a high grade Browning Model 12 repro, a 1148, a Franchi and a 870. The 870 and the 1148 had the widest loading ports. High volumn dove shooting will wear your thumb out pretty quick and quick reloads are difficult with the small shells and the narrow loading ports on most 28ga. repeaters I have owned and handled. The Franchi was so light it was like carrying a BB gun. I used it as my field trial gun for a couple of years. I shot the 1148 on dove hunts for many years until another hunter wanted it much more than I did, That was a great little gun, but parts can be hard to find and it did not work well with Fiochi brand ammo which was a shame because that brand was the most affordable. The 870 was heavy for the gauge and the Browning was just too pretty to beat up while hunting. I have been looking for a side by side in 28 and trying to resist a very affordable O/U in 28 at a local gunshop. I love the gauge, but just can't seem to hang on to them.
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I purchased a Beretta 686 White Onyx 28" barreled 28ga years ago. By far and away my favorite upland gun. Winchester super sport 7.5s at 1300 fps take care of my grouse/woodcock/dove shooting. When I go after bunnies and pheasants I switch to Fiocchi 7/8 oz golden pheasant in 5 shot.
Is it the most practical gun? Probably not.
Is the ammo the cheapest? Nope.
I have a gun safe full of things that arent practical or cheap and thats the fun of this hobby
DON’T BE TOO PROUD OF THIS TECHNOLOGICAL TERROR YOU’VE CONSTRUCTED. THE ABILITY TO DESTROY A PLANET IS INSIGNIFICANT NEXT TO THE POWER OF THE FORCE.
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I own and shoot a Benelli Legacy 28 ga. semiauto. I use this gun for everything but ducks and geese. With Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads of 7/8 oz, and either 6 or 7.5 plated shot, this shotgun is deadly on birds pointed by my Lab. Weight is around 5 lb., a real joy to carry all day in the field. The Benelli is scaled to proper 28 ga. dimensions, not a 20 ga. simply barreled to 28 like many other makes. For doves, I go to 3/4 oz. trap and skeet loads, in 7.5 shot. If you have not tried a 28 ga. for upland game, you are missing out, IMO.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Bighorn-
Sounds like we think a lot alike in ammo choices for our 28s.
DON’T BE TOO PROUD OF THIS TECHNOLOGICAL TERROR YOU’VE CONSTRUCTED. THE ABILITY TO DESTROY A PLANET IS INSIGNIFICANT NEXT TO THE POWER OF THE FORCE.
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28 is good but I think 20 may be just ever so slightly better regarding range on wild birds, though it may be in my mind alone.I 've played with 20 gauges in SxS, O/U and auto. I've played with 28s in O/U and semi. I would go 20 gauge Benelli Montefeltro, but that's me.
Last edited by DesertMuleDeer; 02/17/21.
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I have several 28 gauges, a browning o/u, a wingmaster with the jackass remlock converted on it to the democrat heart attack no lock mod, and a BPS. Whenever we shoot clays...at the end of the day, the wingmaster gets the most work out. It's picked by most everyone over 12's, 16's, 410's and 20's laying beside it in the pick-up truck. It's just a nice match and pleasant to shoot.
If I could only have one gun...it'd be a 12 gauge. But this is America...so I need a 10 gauge eventually to add to my collection.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I've got a BPS 10Ga. I'll sell you cheap. It's ANIB.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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I'm a 28 gauge fan.
When I was a kid, like many I started with a 410, the old man had a dandy 11-48 28ga skeet that I shot, progressed to 20, then 16, and of course 12. Always wanted bigger, bigger is better, right? Even shot an 1887 Winchester 10 ga for ducks and geese for a few seasons.
As a young adult, I always found myself going back to a 28ga.
Now, I shoot a Browning Superposed 28ga choked skeet/skeet almost exclusively for pheasants with #5s or 6s it's a deadly combination. 40 yards is not a problem.
I always seemed to make my best and most surprising shots with a 28ga.
Nothing at all wrong with a 20 or 16. I tend to take either out on occasion for doves or pheasants. But, nothing shoots like a quality 28.
Last edited by 06hunter59; 02/18/21. Reason: X
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TSS shot in a 28 turns it into 12+
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Grew up using a 20 Beretta Semi with 2 3/4 1oz 6 shot for primary load......modified choke.
How much does a 28 give up to a 20?
Use will be rabbits, dove, squirrel, and hopefully a Pheasant hunt if lucky.
Or possibly buy an over/under that you can just swap barrels between 20 and 28.
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Looking at a Beretta A400. Wanted my daughter to try out a Franchi AL48 but could not find any in our locale. Guess we'll end up with the A400 xplor.
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Friend has the A400 Xplor in a 20 Gauge...really nice SA...However, the one with the Kick-off recoil reduction unit can be a little long in the LOP....Especially with added hunting clothes..
laissez les bons temps rouler
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1oz loads don't give up much...
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A400 is good too. I have both and prefer the Benelli but the A400 is a good shotgun.
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Looking at a Beretta A400. Wanted my daughter to try out a Franchi AL48 but could not find any in our locale. Guess we'll end up with the A400 xplor. Find an A400 20-ga. "Upland" model with the Kickoff recoil reducer. It is in the middle of the stock, which allows you to shorten the stock if she needs that. 20-ga. recoil is not that great a concern in hunting because so few shots are fired, but if she ever starts shooting clays with it, the Kickoff is real nice.
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Only problem with my Buds A400 xplor was it didn't like Kent steel shot and steel rimmed shells...Fed it Federal, Winchester, Remington and it was flawless....Maybe not normal with other examples....
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Campfire Kahuna
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A400 is good too. I have both and prefer the Benelli but the A400 is a good shotgun. Benelli Montafelto 20 ga. Never look back. Thank me later
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
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A400 is good too. I have both and prefer the Benelli but the A400 is a good shotgun. Benelli Montafelto 20 ga. Never look back. Thank me later Second that !!
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Sounds like we have some more looking and experimenting to do. Have some time before it warms up enough for us to do sporting clays anyway.
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I have a Beretta A400 Xplor 28 ga 28" barrel, Only owned it for a month but its turning into my favorite skeet gun. I shoot it just as well as my At400 Xcel Black 12 ga Sporter with the Kickoff on skeet. 5.5#s, zero jams in the first 500 shots. Shooting AA HS cases, Alliant 20/28 powder and Clay Buster wads, 3/4 oz shot.
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TSS shot in a 28 turns it into 12+ Good article on "Handloading Harder, Denser Shot" by John Barsness in this month's "Handloader" Magazine (Feb 2021 #330). He reports using a 28 ga with #7 lead shot for an entire upland bird season and never found the 28 ga to be "...too small, even on pheasants and sage grouse." He also talks about how the late Bob Brister did a detailed analysis on bird shot patterns on moving targets (including shooting a long board mounted on a trailer towed by the family car driven by his wife!). So there is some science behind why the 3/4 ozs loads are deadler than expected. I have been shooting a sweet little AYA No.4 28 ga for about 15 years. IC & M chokes. I use it for nearly everything including pheasants over dogs. The standard 3/4 ozs lead loads have left me wanting nothing more, as long as I kept within 40 yards or so. Late season roosters and ducks - out comes the 12. But I confess, I did drink my bathwater when I was a baby. Who else shoots 5 lb 28 gauge sxs these days?
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
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Friend occasionally shoots a AyA 28 or a Urgartechia in the same. Great shotguns, that are under the radar to most.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Campfire Greenhorn
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My 2 coppers... if you already have a 20 gauge, get the 28, but if you don't have a 20 gauge, get the 20... it is a much more versatile gun and can be used on tougher birds and at longer ranges... late season pheasants and sharpies require a heavier payload. A 20 can also stand in on turkeys and waterfowl in a pinch.
I had Citori 525's in 20 gauge and 28 gauge and needed to let one go, the 28 lost that argument, even though I already have a BSS Sporter 20.
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I've had a Beretta 686 28 on the small frame for over 20 years. To say it's my favorite upland gun would be an understatement. Probably the best way to describe the first time you pick up a small frame 28 is with a family reunion analogy.
You're at your annual family reunion and have hugged all the hefty aunts and cousins. Some of them are pretty sturdy, kind of like your large frame O/U's. Your cousin John arrives a little late. You haven't seen much of him for several years as he has been stationed overseas for a couple of enlistments and just got stationed back stateside. He has with him his new wife, a lovely, tiny Korean lady, maybe 4'10" and 90 pounds. Everyone welcomes John and his new bride and you hug your favorite cousin and then give his wife a hug. You marvel at how tiny and petite she is. Markedly different than the aunts. That's what it's like to pick up a small frame 28.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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Looking at a good deal for the 686 silver pigeon I combo with 20/28” and 28/28” barrels. The 28 gauge is the slimmer model I believe.
All around upland and sporting clays.
Thoughts on this combo?
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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The Beretta 680 shotgun series are probably the most durable shotguns ever made....not always the best balanced-there have been more than a few barrel adaptations-or comparatively recoil friendly, but they will last and do so with only minimal attention to care.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Looking at a good deal for the 686 silver pigeon I combo with 20/28” and 28/28” barrels. The 28 gauge is the slimmer model I believe.
All around upland and sporting clays.
Thoughts on this combo? The 20/28 combo is on the 20 gauge frame and the 28 and 28/410 combo is one their small frame, referred to as the baby frame by some. I have the 28 on the small frame SP1. Mine weighs 6 pounds 4 ounces. My previous 686 Onyx 28 weighed 5 pounds 14 ounces. Both 28 inches. The only difference I can imagine for the weight difference is the wood. My current one seems to have a denser piece of walnut than my old one. I looked hard at the 20/28 gauge combo several years ago. I sure wouldn't be afraid to go that way, especially if your shooting clay target events with the two gauges. I hunted hard with the first Beretta 28 gauge I had. It was my primary upland gun for may years. I got in a side by side sweat for a few years and sold it. It was an expensive mistake. I found out I just don't shoot side by sides as well as O/Us and pumps. So they went down the road and I went back to O/Us and a couple of pumps. I thought hard about the 20/28 combo and the only reason I didn't go that way is I got such a good deal on the Blackwing 20. Then found a good deal on a slightly used 28 gauge SP1. I really like the 28 for an upland gun, especially with a pointing dog or a close working flusher. I think the combo would offer you some added versatility. Especially is you do any driven bird shooting or want to press the 20 gauge side of the combo into some waterfowl service. From what I've read the TSS shot turns the 28 into an 8 bore (might be a slight exaggeration) but cost a bunch. There are some less expensive 20 gauge non toxic options.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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The Ruger Red Label in 28 ga is a magic wand.
The 20 and 12 ga Red Labels are a little heavier which is fine for Clay target shooting, or hunting with 3” shells, but the 28 has that slender hunting balance. Pity they stopped making them.
History May Not Repeat, But it Rhymes.
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Looking at a Beretta A400. Wanted my daughter to try out a Franchi AL48 but could not find any in our locale. Guess we'll end up with the A400 xplor. I've owned and have several thousand rounds through a Franchi AL 48 28ga. I've shot everything from doves to Canada geese with it, I dearly love it. That said, I'd not start a new shooter w/the Franchi over a Beretta 400. Between the recoil of the actual ammo and then the bbl coming back and working the action, the recoil w/the Franchi is significant. It's far more than a 7/8oz 20Ga target load from a gas-gun. AA's from the Franchi recoil like 1 Oz field loads from a gas-20. FWIW I have several 20Ga 302/303 Berettas and a half-dozen 391's and I've shot them all back-to-back w/the Franchi often shooting either Skeet or Sporting Clays. The Franchi also needs a FIRM plant on the shooter's shoulder to cycle reliably. Again, I LOVE the little thing, but, I'd not start a new shooter with it.
I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
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Looking at a Beretta A400. Wanted my daughter to try out a Franchi AL48 but could not find any in our locale. Guess we'll end up with the A400 xplor. I've owned and have several thousand rounds through a Franchi AL 48 28ga. I've shot everything from doves to Canada geese with it, I dearly love it. That said, I'd not start a new shooter w/the Franchi over a Beretta 400. Between the recoil of the actual ammo and then the bbl coming back and working the action, the recoil w/the Franchi is significant. It's far more than a 7/8oz 20Ga target load from a gas-gun. AA's from the Franchi recoil like 1 Oz field loads from a gas-20. FWIW I have several 20Ga 302/303 Berettas and a half-dozen 391's and I've shot them all back-to-back w/the Franchi often shooting either Skeet or Sporting Clays. The Franchi also needs a FIRM plant on the shooter's shoulder to cycle reliably. Again, I LOVE the little thing, but, I'd not start a new shooter with it. Very well spoken and iI agree whole heartedly........
If it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!!!!!!!!
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Looking at a good deal for the 686 silver pigeon I combo with 20/28” and 28/28” barrels. The 28 gauge is the slimmer model I believe.
All around upland and sporting clays.
Thoughts on this combo? The 20/28 combo is on the 20 gauge frame and the 28 and 28/410 combo is one their small frame, referred to as the baby frame by some. I have the 28 on the small frame SP1. Mine weighs 6 pounds 4 ounces. My previous 686 Onyx 28 weighed 5 pounds 14 ounces. Both 28 inches. The only difference I can imagine for the weight difference is the wood. My current one seems to have a denser piece of walnut than my old one. U I looked hard at the 20/28 gauge combo several years ago. I sure wouldn't be afraid to go that way, especially if your shooting clay target events with the two gauges. I hunted hard with the first Beretta 28 gauge I had. It was my primary upland gun for may years. I got in a side by side sweat for a few years and sold it. It was an expensive mistake. I found out I just don't shoot side by sides as well as O/Us and pumps. So they went down the road and I went back to O/Us and a couple of pumps. I thought hard about the 20/28 combo and the only reason I didn't go that way is I got such a good deal on the Blackwing 20. Then found a good deal on a slightly used 28 gauge SP1. I really like the 28 for an upland gun, especially with a pointing dog or a close working flusher. I think the combo would offer you some added versatility. Especially is you do any driven bird shooting or want to press the 20 gauge side of the combo into some waterfowl service. From what I've read the TSS shot turns the 28 into an 8 bore (might be a slight exaggeration) but cost a bunch. There are some less expensive 20 gauge non toxic options. Thanks, I just found a nice used older 686 SP 28” 28 gauge and snagged it. Now to try it on the sporting clays course…
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Posts: 11,322
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,322 |
I have a few 20's in O/U and autos as well as 28s. High on my want list is a 20/28 O/U combo Beretta. I thought about a 28/410 combo but had a real "Come to Jesus" and decided that I would get more use out of the 20/28 combo.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
Nice lightweight ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/qBhVVRdC/DBA84568-344-A-4-EDB-82-C2-E8-F81805-AE60.jpg)
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 9,056
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 9,056 |
Looking at a Beretta A400. Wanted my daughter to try out a Franchi AL48 but could not find any in our locale. Guess we'll end up with the A400 xplor. I've owned and have several thousand rounds through a Franchi AL 48 28ga. I've shot everything from doves to Canada geese with it, I dearly love it. That said, I'd not start a new shooter w/the Franchi over a Beretta 400. Between the recoil of the actual ammo and then the bbl coming back and working the action, the recoil w/the Franchi is significant. It's far more than a 7/8oz 20Ga target load from a gas-gun. AA's from the Franchi recoil like 1 Oz field loads from a gas-20. FWIW I have several 20Ga 302/303 Berettas and a half-dozen 391's and I've shot them all back-to-back w/the Franchi often shooting either Skeet or Sporting Clays. The Franchi also needs a FIRM plant on the shooter's shoulder to cycle reliably. Again, I LOVE the little thing, but, I'd not start a new shooter with it. Very well spoken and iI agree whole heartedly........ I've got a 20 GA AL48 franchi that I bought from a rabbit hunter that is a pleasure to carry but kicks as hard as any semi-auto 12 ga in my safe. Agree, it's not a gun to start a new one on.
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,003
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,003 |
How much does a 28 give up to a 20?
25% less shot. Which makes little difference on anything you center up inside of 25 yards or so, but patterns get thin quick past 30 yards. Couple dollars a box more for shells. True to scale 28's are very light and quick, but too light and quick to my taste. All of my field shooting is with 1100's and 870's, which weigh about the same as the 20 gauge frames they are built on. Best summary, IMO. The 20 will always be the most practical choice. It also has a much wider range of useful loads. Lighter, “quicker “ guns are not the advantage that novices imagine. Still, you probably don’t need the game to survive, so get what you want.
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 277
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 277 |
I shoot a Franchi 48 AL in 28 gauge over pointing dogs and I love it.
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 447
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 447 |
I have O/U, SxS, and semi-auto in 20 ga. I have O/U and semi-auto in 28 ga. I’ve killed quite a few dove with a 28 ga and love it more than any other gauge. My Franchi 48AL 28 ga is a great gun and I shoot it as well as any gun I own. It’s a great gun when sitting in one spot shooting dove. But if I was buying a 28 today, it would be an O/U or SxS. You may want to reload and you can actually find your shells out of a double. Semi-autos may fling them so far you cannot find them.
You can now find some 28 gauges in 3” chambers. Personally, I wouldn’t buy one because 3” 28s are hard to find and expensive when you do. I know several people that hunt pen raised preserve pheasants with a 28 gauge with 2 3/4” and 3” shells. A good load of 6 shot (Fiocchi Golden Pheasant) out of a 28 gauge will kill them as dead as any other shotgun. But wild pheasant are a different story for me. I have wanted to use one of my 28s on wild birds, but they tend to flush further out and I would pass on too many shots. If I had a good dog, and they flushed close, I would use a 28 without looking back.
The expert at anything was once a beginner.
JC
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,322
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,322 |
why not 20 and 28 ga?
I like them both
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 58
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 58 |
Another 28 Gauge fan here. I prefer pumps as that is what I was brought up shooting. Personal favorites are the rem 870 wingmaster IC with VR and browning repro model 12 which I got choke tubes put in. Mostly use them for upland birds but planning to give the M12 a try turkey hunting next year.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899 |
NOT a 28 fan. Had 2 beretta O/U twins one in 20 and one in 28. Still have the 20. I think the frames were the same though. For hunting I'll take the 20. Recoil to me was about the same (same frame and almost same weight gun). 28 ammo was harder to find and more expensive and I think the 20 killed more decisively. The 28 is "cute" and maybe on a 28 frame it would carry better, etc. But don't think I'll ever own another 28. For me the 28 is an excuse to own another gun, but I don't need an excuse to own another 20, or a 12 for that matter. Now if I needed an excuse for another SG with expensive harder to find ammo, a 16 might be it.
I'm in the minority, probably.
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