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Appears they are out of business??

Anyone know of a place that will repair them????

Thanks
Tim

I, have an old master chrony I'd sell cheap, pm me if interested.

Quite a few you tube vids on their repair. Maybe some parts source info there? Plus parts units on Ebay.


I try to stay informed & totally missed this news. When did all this happen? Any reasons?

Out of business? They are still selling on Amazon. I have one on my Christmas list

The Shooters Chrony was and is a dreadful POS not worthy of spending a dime on.........

This ^^^^^

In my experience (and I bought my first of 3 Shooting Chronys in the early 1990s) you be way ahead by spending $100 or so for a ProChrono Pal.

Had one in the early 2000. Somehow it had 9 consecutive bullet strikes and ceased to power up. Had no desire to own another one.

Junk. Would never buy another.

Or the ProChrono DLX. I think it replaced the Digital and bluetooth's to your smartphone where you can store the bullet and velocities. Well worth the extra $25 IMO.

Mine works ok if the lighting is overcast, midday, but always has a few non-computes in a string. I would never buy another one. Happy Trails and Merry Christmas 🎄

Great Co. with great customer service. Yes, they stand behind their stuff.

I got my first in 1990... after 28 years it had finally been beat up enough that I decided to get a new one (which cost less than the original in 1990). New one is just as good as the original.

I’ve had one since early or mid-nineties. Not the greatest in bright, overhead sunlight, but has always worked well for me otherwise. I’m not looking for high-powered SPC , I just want to know how fast my bullets are going. Occasionally I get a funny reading, but usually everything is about where I figure it should be.

Being how I paid about $50 for my Shooting Chrony over 30 years ago and it still works just fine - I can't really complain too much. But, it does work much better under a cloudy sky or shaded on a sunny day. Been thinking about replacing it with a ProChrono Pal but have not got around to it yet.

I’ve on my second Shooting Chrony, which is over 20 years old and still working. The first succumbed to an errant .338 projectile....a short sad story! memtb

Always good to hear about how great Shooting Chronys are, from people who've never compared their results to a real chronograph.

Laughin' here..........

MM

I set up a friend's Shooting Chrony directly behind my Oehler 35 screens. The Chrony readings were fairly reliable @ 100 ft/sec faster that the two readings provided by the Oehler. Out of curiosity I sent my Oehler back to the factory to have its accuracy verified. The unit bench tested within specs and gave proper reading when used with their test ammo which produces a known velocity.

They also told me it's almost impossible to have a bad velocity output when the two read-outs coincide.

I lost faith in the Chronys after that.

I had a Pro Chrony, it did quite well when it did. Suddenly much better velocity readings than I expected. Have a Labradar now. Not going back. Ease of setup etc.

Charlie - NY;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the day treated you acceptably and this finds you and all that matter well.

Thanks for sharing your Shooting Chrony testing, I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

Back in the day when the Shooting Chrony first came out my good wife bought one for me and I used it with reasonable success ever since, but occasionally it'd have an odd reading day.

This spring, I happened to bump into a shooting buddy at the range and he had a much newer version than mine, but he said he was regularly getting screwy readings from it so asked if we could piggy back the units for the sake of science and all.

While I could go drag out my notes from range day, going off of my memory it went something like this....

The first rifle we tried was a .22 rimfire and his gave consistently slower velocities than mine did, but with a couple different types of ammo it seemed pretty consistent so we were both more or less okay.

Then we tried his 17HRM and again his was slower than mine was and the spread was about the right percentage difference so we were still not terribly concerned.

Up next I torched off a few test loads with my 6.5x55 and now mine was "a whole lot" slower than his and I knew something was up because I'd tried a new can of powder which resulted in enough pressure to loosen the primer pocket. Something was rotten in Denmark...

Finally I ran my .308 Norma across them and again they didn't agree and the spread was more than 150fps as I recall.

So after chatting about life and family, he said he was ordering a Magneto Speed, I intended to get a Pro Chrono and we were going to meet again for a re-run of the data!

Thus far I've used the Pro Chrono about 3 or 4 times and am very pleased with it, but haven't piggy backed it with my old Shooting Chrony, I suppose just not seeing the point, you know?

Anyways, that's how it all went for us up here across the medicine line with our chronograph science experiments this year.

All the best to you all this Christmas Season.

Dwayne

I just realized we’re talking about two different things. Mine is a Pro Chrono by Competition Electronics, which I’ve also tested against far more expensive chronographs and found it spot on. I’ve never used a “Shooting Chrony.”

A decent sale w/ free shipping:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015085264?pid=113204

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020438152?pid=988434

And BTW, I have the "Pal" version... nothing fancy, just works.

Sometime in the 1990s, I assassinated my Chrony.

Based on the comments above, perhaps a good thing?

At the time, the Shooting Chrony worked just fine. A 150 grain RN ended its life. Who says light 30-30 bullets are no good?

Of course, as technology advanced, other products became attractive. Considering my own circumstances, I have never seen the need to spend any more than the price of a Pro Chrono.

I’ll be the odd man out here.
My two hunting pards that have gone on to the happy hinting grounds had agreen and a red shooting chrony.
Other buddy had Oehler.
Put them back to back and there wasn’t enough difference to sneeze at.
I am now in possession of both of them but haven’t used either one in a few years.

I owned three Shooting Chronys from the early 1990s until around 2008. The first I tested against an older, very reliable chronograph, one of the primitive models that required turning a dial around a series of numbers. Some would light up, and you could then look up the velocity in a booklet.

Bought that first Chrony because it would be a lot faster at the range, and easier to set up. I checked it with some .22 Long Rifle ammo, and the Chrony got the same velocities. Used it for a few years until it quit working at all, perhaps due to so many shots being fires from higher-powered rifles. Bought it so cheaply (as I recall $50) that it wasn't worth repairing, so I bought another. That one showed increasing velociities over a few years--so slowly I didn't realize it was happening until it became too obvious. Sent it back to Chrony, and when it came back did the same thing. Junked it and bought another, though should have learned my lesson by then, because I needed a chronograph right away due to my work.

In the meantime Oehler started making 35Ps again, so I ordered one. That particular Chrony did NOT match the velocities of the Oehler, and velocities also varied far more under different light conditions. In the meantime I'd run into more than one guy at the local range who had problems with his Chrony, including one who's Chrony starting showing velocities 500 fps faster than normal with 180-grain .30-06 loads.

At that point I started trying other chronographs as well, including a ProChrono Pal, which I used for quick range trips because it was quicker to set up than the Oehler. When the Pal showed up I tested it against the Oehler during a long afternoon range session lasting about 4 hours, and with several rifles the readings were right together, including under different light conditions.

That said, the Pal was not nearly as good for real ballistic analysis, because the light-screens are so close together, but it worked fine for quick sessions until an unexpected gust of wind toppled its tripod one day. Sent it to the factory to be repaired (which worked, unlike my Chrony repair), and in the meantime ordered another for backup. Tested it against the Oehler too, and it was also dead on. Eventually gave one of them to a younger friend with a growing family who really couldn't justify even $100 for one. It's still working great for him.

After that purchased several other chronographs, primarily to test for magazine articles, including a couple of Magnetospeeds and a LabRadar. All of them recorded the same basic velocities the the same loads. Have seen so many Shooting Chronys NOT do that I've lost count.

Might also comment that if you haven't used your Chrony in several years, you don't use a chronograph much.

I bought a Pro Chrono with blue tooth last year. It works great, and the data is saved on my phone. My brothers 1990s Shooting Chrony works ok, just not as good as mine.

Ron

Not perhaps but absolutely the right thing, I did exactly the same then bought the Oehler 35p that I am using to this day.

I have owned 4-5 chrono's over the years, if they still made the screens I would probably still be using my Custom Chronograph (and I DON'T consider it primitive, John--sheesh).

I compared velocities of my LabRadar to my M35 most of one summer, and calculating for distance to muzzle they agreed within single digits all but for a few shots. One of those shots were about 35 fps difference though. Never did figure that out.

Also have compared my LabRadar to another one and they agreed with one another within single digits. These days I use my LabRadar a lot more than my M35, it's just so much easier, plus I can chronograph shots from prone position.

35 fps is well within the extreme spread of most ammunition. So, which one was right? My experience with the LabRadar shows attention must be paid to alignment, before and during shooting. Mine gives good readings as long as I do that. It is not uncommon, however, for it to get bumped and numbers go crazy. This happened during a recent class when the students were measuring velocity with both an Oehler and the LabRadar. Numbers were in good agreement for the first couple of students. By the 8th student, it was obvious the ball head on the mounting plate wasn't tight enough as the machine had drooped. My fault, not the LabRadar's fault.

Another incident was when informally shooting some shots ammunition and a new rifle last August. It was a quick look and I used the LabRadar by itself instead of also setting up an Oehler. Expected velocity was in the 2680 fps range. Measurements were going as expected. Suddenly, I got a velocity of 7,400 fps. I saw the bullet impact the berm so knew it didn't go high. I navigated the LabRadar to the page that showed all measurements of that shot and it gave:

V0 - 7400
V3 - 6977
V25 - 2666
V50 - 2631
V75 - 2597
V95 - 2572

So, it appears, the numbers at 25 yards and beyond were likely correct. Either that or the bullet "slammed on the brakes" between 3 and 25 yards. Such a large error is easy to see. What if it had been 45 fps? I wouldn't have reason to suspect one reading that is 45 fps off. It wasn't important so I really don't care. I discarded that shot and went on about my business.

I also have to monitor students to ensure they line up properly on the skyscreens when using the Oehler. The "proof" value will tell me when they get misaligned.

All chronographs can give a bad reading. Dr. Oehler recognized that a long time ago. It is the beauty of the "proof" screen. If something is wrong, it will tell you. You can then diagnose and fix the problem. Having the "proof" measurement has saved my bacon...more than once.

Although the Oehler includes the "proof" screen, the same benefit can be realized if you use two chronographs for all measurements. Well done, Casey, on your comparisons.

There is no doubt that people trust the Oehler equipment. It has long been the "gold standard". Have you ever seen anyone claim to trust an Oehler because they "Checked it against Brand X"?

I don’t use one much because I mainly stay with known loads and my shot distances here are 200 and under so it really isn’t necessary.
Just relating my experience with the chronys vs the oehler.
Chrony did miss more readings but they were basically equal.

There's no reason for most people to own a chronograph. If you use tested loads from a manual and are taking shots at 200 yards or less, you don't need one. Please don't feel that your response was unappreciated. All the best.

I must simply disagree.

All barrels/chambers are different. I'm working with two rifles right now, that if I used max published data I'd be Waaaay over max pressure. In the day and age of an $89 chronograph I think it's borderline irresponsible not to own one. Velocity data is quite literally 50% (and more) of the handloading equation.

We'll have to agree to disagree. You could make that argument with people who reload and may not follow the recipes in their manuals, but if you follow the book and the rules of working up loads, you will not be way over max. There will always be exceptions, but I have never heard about or read of a reloader who was injured with a book load. Now, I am sure someone will chime in with just such a story, but they are clearly the exception, not the rule.

But Steve.....

Even if we could go out and buy all the same brand of components that were used in the published data (which in these times are nigh unto impossible), there are the variations in lots/manufacturing runs with components. Primarily powders and brass. There are also changes in the ogives of bullets from time to time. There will be times when a max powder charge, or even a charge approaching max exceeds the published velocity. And as you would well know if we are getting a velocity above the published velocity, the odds are we are over pressure.

You are assuming that changes in propellants or other components will cause a large (dangerous) change in generated pressure. If this was the case, we would have read about Hodgdon recipes and others causing a firearm to self destruct. I say Hodgdon because they never used to publish bullet manufacturers, just things like 50 gr, or 60 gr loads.

i have never seen a warning in any manual advising users to confirm the book load with a chronograph before attempting any loads in their book. I have read that reloaders should work up loads and not jump to the maximum. I do not believe that any company will publish information that is clearly dangerous or irresponsible. If you cannot trust a manual published by a major manufacturer, then I would suggest you shouldn't be reloading.

This year, one of my 270's was packing a 160g NPt with 59.2g of IMR7977 with WW cases and WLR primer--the same as Hodgdon was using in their pressure data--for an average velocity at 2804 fps with a 22" bbl.

Hodgdon's max charge was 60g and using a 24" bbl and producing 2843fps. I'm assuming Hodgdon's is using piezo pressure gun, and the chamber would be at SAAMI minimum specs which tends to produce more velocity than our joe average bbls, factory or custom.

My rule of thumb is to subtract 20fps per inch of bbl when comparing my loads to pressure data. In other words my 58.2g of powder is probably right there at max pressure. 60g would most likely be over pressure and as it's been noted by JB and other articles I've read pressure signs don't generally show up until well over pressure.

Oh stop it. I've had soft brass produce bodacious ejector marks with minimum powder charges with several different powders. I've hit max listed velocity with less than max charge before and have had max charges be well below max listed velocity (accounting for bbl length) before also.

Changes in components can damn sure change the pressure equation.

Your response outlines one of the dangers of using a chronograph when doing load work ups, and why reloaders can get into trouble.

Imagine for a moment that a new reloader reads in his manual that a certain bullet and load will generate 2800 fps. Does he confirm how the manual determined the velocities? Does he know the barrel length of the barrel used in the manual? using what equipment? Does the manual even publish this information?

Let's say the manual states that they used a 24 inch barrel and got 2800 fps. Our reloader has a rifle with a 22 inch barrel. He loads the max and only gets 2720 fps - according to his chrono.Assuming his chrono is accurate, he decides that he can increase the amount of powder until he attains 2800 fps. Can he?

I have to agree that speed is a key metric for load work up. Many times I have had pressure signs below book maximums, No I wasn't injured and could back off or try different combinations of powder or bullet, Most agree that these pressure signs, like hard bolt lift or brass flowing in to the ejector slot occur many thousands of PSI above SAAMI max pressures. While its great to have rifle and brass that can handle that from time to time, id rather not depend on it. Now that I use a chonograph for load work up I usually get tipped of by velocity before I get to the point of high pressure signs.

The other side of the coin is stopping at a book max because without a Chronograph you have no idea that your load is still way below expected velocity.

Its probably 15 or so years ago I got my shooters Chrony for something like the cost of 2 boxes of bullets ( I think mine was a refurb from midway) Its was a useful tool that was worth more than I paid. It missed some shots, but mostly worked for my purposes. In the end I mostly replaced it with a Magnetospeed, just for the convince of set up, but still use the shooting Chrony when I have a bigger project and want to shoot groups with out removing the MS. I never did an extensive side by side, but on the few occasions when I did some parallel shooting they matched up within 10 fps or so. With MD's comments I am tempted to do a better comparison with the Shooting Chrony and Magnetospeed.

What's it like to live in the Stone Age?

Having a chrono can help, but it is only part of the work up. I agree, knowing the velocity is good, but reloaders have to know what they are looking at, They have to be able to recognize problems with more than just velocity.

Mercifully, I do not. I have learned a lot over the years, but one is technology does not always make up for bad judgment.

If he sacrifices the correct color of chicken, yes.

But seriously, of course he can. He can schit in his own shoes if he wants to. Is it safe to load over-pressure? Likely. But the question becomes, "When does it become unsafe?" A few thousand PSI, say to 68K PSI MAP on a very consistent load velocity-wise, likely isn't going to be noticed, let alone likely unsafe.

Again, I have to look at all the companies who publish manuals. They have to assume that their readers will follow their instructions. It's never wise to ignore your manual unless you know what you are doing. Publishers cannot make that assumption, so not having a chrono won't put you in harm's way. Follow the manual's advice and everything will be fine.

I have not used my Chrony since I developed 400 grain Cape Buff loads for my Winchestrb1895 .405 WCF. There were good book loads to follow that included load and velocity, but not pressure. My Chrony and I matched them well , down to 1 foot second. This ammo was very carefully loaded with TAC and the results were gratifying. The final load matched the book exactly and the average shot to shot deviation was zero, so I stopped at 2076 fps for the .411 Woodleigh buff loads. FWIW, they were accurate and deadly in Africa.
I used my Pressure Test II to compare this ammo with factory Hornady 300 grain ammo and some of my other handloads. Pressures were safe, but still running above that stated in a couple of my load books. So, I switched to VV N133 which has a reputation for running 10,000 - 12,000 PSI lower than most popular powders and BINGO, same velocity 10,000 psi lass; actually dropped below 40,000 psi! Good for my Simson Suhl .405 DR also. Another Win Win deal!

So, it appears that my old Chony is still "good enough" for my needs for a few more years.

BTW, I hand loaded for my .308 at first until Hornady came out with Light Magnum ammo and I have used that ever since and it is accurate and my old M70 FWT loves it.

Steve,
I pointed out in a previous post that one must account for bbl length. Owning chronograph(s) for almost 40 years one of the first lessons I learned was about bbl length and velocity. Most manuals do list bbl length and some manual list the bbl manufacturer. Some manuals discuss their methods and equipment used.
I also learned that with various loads sometimes increases in powder when nearing max charge can result in little or no increase in velocity or vice versa. In my 243's I see a fair amount of change in velocity with seating depth of the bullet. That is also where a chrono comes in real handy. If I'm seeing max velocity with a load and want to seat the bullet closer to the lands, I take that into account and may decrease powder charge a couple tenths or so.

Back in the 90's some friends and I had virtually unlimited access to a Oehler M43 Ballistics Lab for a couple summers. We bought and glued a LOT of strain gauges on rifles. There was a steep learning curve with both the M43 and learning computers of the time, but one could see at times when pressure went up without much increase in velocity. Again, this always happened when we at, near, or over max listed powder charges. I've remembered that and have practiced my loading accordingly. When I stop seeing expected velocity increases when near max charge the odds are I'm at or over pressure. That is a rule of thumb but certainly has exceptions.

A chrono isn't a replacement for a pressure receiver and bbl, but it is a useful tool for a handloader.

Brad,
Thanks for the striking photo! Good Show!

I agree that the Chrony has its faults. I learned long ago that overcast days were my friend. But it really put an affordable chronograph in the hands of shooters back in the day, though most have upgraded to more reliable equipment. I used my Chrony for a physical science lab where the students fired a Styrofoam dart from a dart gun and measured velocity, then used the dart's mass and velocity to do KE and momentum calculations. Had to play with the lighting then too to make it work well.

I'm glad that you accept it's a tool. It will never replace common sense and knowledge. I will say this to you, and others in this thread. Some of you kept saying "I know...". This is not a swipe at you personally a/c, or anyone else who has responded. The manuals were not printed for you personally, but the general public. You might know what you are doing, but the companies don't know you. You shouldn't assume that others will take your advice and use it properly either.

When I was in the military, I worked for a man who used to smoke in the explosives storage area, That was where we kept propellants, and other explosive types. He broke the rules, and was caught twice, but always said, "I know the dangers and know what I am doing. I only smoke in empty bldgs." Until he caused a fire in the compound. Low explosive powder dust was on the floor when he put out his cigarette. Two lessons were learned. Housekeeping and stupidity.

This reloader can see both sides of this issue. Still, I fall on the side of spending the $90 to be sure.

I’m currently working with a long-throated 7x57 that’s been in the family for 4 generations. I carefully worked-up to the “family recipe” load, and found good accuracy with no outward pressure signs. While the rifle has many dozens of big game heads to its credit, the chronograph showed my 160 grain Partitions were being launched at a blistering 2,280 fps.

The “family recipe” was already over book max for the powder.

Nostalgia for the family history is wonderful, but I’m grateful I have a tool that can help me safely maximize the potential of this wonderful rifle.

FC


Edit to add: My experience with a Shooting Chrony was that, on those intermittent occasions when it did deign to display a reading, 'twas frequently erroneous. The device was perhaps better than imaginary toilet paper, but only slightly. I moved on to the PAL unit that's been strongly suggested in this thread, and have been very well pleased with it. The customer service folks there are excellent, too.

Steve,

Yes, common sense, knowledge and experience/info gained over the years make a chrono one of the most useful tools a handloader can own.

And we haven't even discussed cold weather testing...........

My use of a chronograph is twofold: 1) to catch any anomaly that might show up, 2) it's just kind of fun to have more data to mess with/records to keep.

All good points--especially about the Chrony putting an affordable chronograph in the hands of shooters.

My primary problem with them was in general they weren't very durable. As a result, you never knew when they might go slowly or quickly bat-schidt.

My may problem with them was in general they weren't very durable. As a result, you never knew when they might go slowly or quickly batp-schidt.

And that is why I started this thread looking for a place to get one repaired.

But this has been a very interesting conversation.

I thought I knew a lot about reading "pressure signs" until I actually began conducting pressure tests according the the SAAMI recommended procedures.

Having to learn the SAAMI procedures and conduct a fair bit of pressure tests made me go home and pull the bullets from my favorite 25/06 load.

I've blown up a bunch of guns. One was unintentional and resulted in significant injury (I was 16). I never want to experience another "pressure failure" unless it is at the end of a long string that is attached to the trigger.

My "Rule of string" for blowing up guns was to estimate how much I thought I needed and double it.

Velocity, in my opinion, is the best predictor of the safety of your loads. Measure it the way you feel is most appropriate for your situation.

Years ago I shot mine with a .375 Ruger.

Best thing i ever did.


Lefty

Curious stuff this. I purchased a Chrony about 22 years ago, and a friend did likewise about 10 years ago. The one I purchased is in other hands but they both continue to function properly. The one my friend has was set up behind a Pro Chrono a few weeks back and the spread between the numbers was low double digits. Something in the 20”s IIRC.

Luck is always a factor in life in human existence.

True, and I've always maintained it's better to be lucky than good.

I have had a Shooting Chrony for many years (second or third generation) and a good friend bought a Pro Chrono, which was not in production when I bought my Chrony. We set both up and shot strings through both. The velocity results were near identical. The big difference was that I had several shots that didn't register on the Chrony, while his Pro Chrono registered every shot. If the Pro Chrono had been available when I bought my Chrony, I would have gotten the Pro Chrono, but I will keep using mine until it dies.

I finally lost one of the sky screens for my Chrony....and used the opportunity as an excuse to buy a Magnetospeed.

Years ago, we had finished shooting rifles and I wanted to check the scope on my Winchester 1300 with rifled barrel. We set the Chrony to one side, out of the line of fire, and with the first shot, it and the tripod went cart-wheeling over. We learned that the sabots on (at least certain) slugs separate to the side very quickly and with a great deal of force. The only damage was to one of the rods (where the sabot piece hit and caused the excitement). We also learned that one does not want to be anywhere to the side of the muzzle of a gun firing a sabot slug.

Does this qualify as a good excuse to get a ProChrono to replace my 20 year old Chrony? After hundreds of rounds over it, one finally nicked it. I did go through the info in this thread and searched all of Mule Deer’s posts in the last year about a replacement and it looked like ProChrono was a slam dunk. I did go with the DLX, which should arrive next week.

Hi Steve;

I've been a handloader for four decades at least, and have handloaded most common cartridges from the .22 Hornet to the .458 Win Mag, and in some of those it's been multiple versions. (never the .303 Brit, though). In starting out, I went by "the book" cautiously. Over time, as I purchased more manuals and rifles, I learned there were discrepancies, not only in rifles but manuals, and sometimes in new publications of manuals by the same company, or near extreme results from similar cartridges testing near identical bullets from the same length test barrels. I'm quite sure that by now I have enough experience and know how to be aware when "something is rotten in Denmark". Internal "politics" is involved, such as "who did the testing on cartridge A?" It's not always the same member of the "team". I know that from conversations with some of the chief ballisticians. For now, just two examples:

Example 1: A number of years ago, I was doing a lot of firing handloads from several .300 Win Mags. I got to know pretty much what each could give me (safely) considering brand and barrel length -- which varied by as much as 200 fps by the same bullet fired from 24" or 26" barrels. The 26" was a Browning and had a "fast" barrel. But over the course of time, I purchased the latest Hornady manual that seemed OK until I read the data for their 220gr. It consistently showed a max of 2500 fps for that bullet. I knew better, so contacted Hornady using their "help" service. I knew it was late in the day (right on their closing time) but was hopeful. It turned out that the head ballistics guy had just turned out the lights and was heading for the door when the phone rang. He went back to the phone and I was on the other end. I asked why a max of ONLY 2500 fps for that 220gr. He was straightforward and apologetic: "We had a young man do those tests and when recoil got to be too much for him (shooting a REAL rifle) he cut it off and that's what went into the computer. When pulled for printing it included "2500 fps maximum" for all loads for the 220gr." To my knowledge that was never officially corrected until the following edition that included some at 2700 fps. It was the 4th edition that showed five "maximum loads-use with caution" and two maximum at 2400 fps. I told him "Those are .30-06 loads", and he agreed.

Example 2: Recently in my blog writing, the theme was "What are Mediums?" Among those the .338 Win Mag and .358 Norma Mag were included and compared. There's minimal difference in capacity and shape -- in fact, .358 Norma cases can be fireformed from .338 Win cases and necked-up. Nosler #6 manual had used data for two equal-length test barrels (24") from two sources (Lilja and Wiseman). Since the larger bore of the two would be expected to, at the very least, equal or slightly outperform the smaller bore due to a better expansion ratio, a better MV should be expected from the .358 Norma over the .338 Win from 250gr Partition bullets fired froim each... assuming equal PSI. Right? Instead of getting similar results, or better, from the Norma, my "unprofessional" knowledge of ballistics was insulted from these results: 2628 fps from the .358 Norma as "max", and 2780 fps from the .338 Win! I knew from experience that the .338 Win number was believable whereas those for the .358 Norma were well below par even though I'd never owned, used or even seen a .358 Norma to this day at age 85! Those are a couple of examples only, but there's a multitude of others scattered in manuals over the years! Yeah, I still use 'em but only consider them for what they're worth, and usually NOT $50 Cdn! I use my judgment based on experience and have never "blown up" a rifle nor been harmed by one, nor had to pound open an action with a mallet! A few loose primers?Yep -- blown primers? 5 that I can recall, and those caused mostly by "book loads".

And, despite ideas that come from "somewhere", ALL manuals have this disclaimer: "Approach maximum loads with caution. If there are SIGNS of excess pressure, reduce loads by a couple of grains." And we have this myth "out there" --- "don't trust signs of excess pressure", yet ALL pros do or they wouldn't include such a disclaimer in their manuals.

With all due respect...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Ive compared my shooting chrony to every chronograph i can find including the high end ones. It works fine. Throws more errors and you always have to use the shades which are a huge PITA btw...but its over 20 years old and works fine. Its never been more than 20 or 30 fps off when going back to back with my magneto speed.

The best...no. But it does work. Mine is a backup now but i literally set it up and used it yesterday in the snow...worked fine.

Think of it this way guys. When i was an extremely poor 18 year old living on my own and wrenching on cars for a living to put myself through college...cheap products like this and the lee anniversary kit made it possible for me to make good quality safe ammo. I hope i never have to use products like that stuff again but you know what? I would if it was all i had...and id still enjoy it

There will always be discrepancies.

When I was still in the service, and had access to more and better equipment, I learned several lessons that were unrelated to that equipment and all the check lists. The first, and most important, was the human element. People are different. Their thought processes are different. Their educational backgrounds and experience are different. For that reason, I trust no one. I have more faith in documented experiments. In other words, I trust companies that have R&D departments much more than casual observers or comments on a webboard. I am more likely to believe credentialed people. I don't ignore what I read from other sources, but it needs to be checked out, if possible.

I am not talking about anyone here, but when someone says they have been doing something for many years, they still have to show me. Saying that they have reloaded for 50 years proves nothing. Shooting a 270 since 1960 proves nothing. All that means is you may have been doing something wrong for a long time. I have to see competency and documented work. Even then, I will evaluate their efforts and perform my own tests, if possible. It is not an insult to say, "Show me." or "How did you come to this conclusion?" It demonstrates that an individual is acting responsibly. He's curious. We could go on at length about scientific method.

Reloading manuals have warnings because end users are amateurs. Most are not ballisticians, chemical engineers or technicians. Reloaders aren't using their test methods and equipment. They don't know who will use their data. Publishers of these manuals know that virtually no one has the equipment, the expertise in data collection or know how to properly interpret that data. Readers are end users. Hobbyists. What we see in manuals is the dumbed down, layman's version. Companies know that this synopsis is all a reloader needs.

There are many things we don't see. The chemical make up of the propellant/primers. Calibrated test equipment and the type and the make/model of the equipment itself. When it was certified as serviceable. Any other devices that are being used in the evaluation - rifles/universal test barrels have to be serviceable and clean. How is pressure testing done? The weather. Test location(s) The analytical software. The experience of the operators/testers is important as well.

Would your average end user even understand any of this? Most people only want to know how much powder to put into a case. Only a few even care about whose cases were used, the powder or the barrel length.

These companies put a lot of effort into production of their manuals. Sometimes, despite their best efforts, errors occur. The one that sticks in my mind was the Barnes overpressures of many years ago. Improper info was published. Whoops! That's why there are warnings and minimum loads.

The final thing I would like to mention are the disagreements. First, between credentialed people. They happen. Usually, the discussions are amicable. Talk is productive. Sometimes, the individuals involved work things out. More or different testing happens. Other times however, the two have to agree to disagree. I have seen this many times while in uniform. Perhaps you have seen this too.

On webboards like this, disagreements also happen. On webboards however, discussions inevitably turn into mud slinging matches. Discussions here rarely happen between qualified people. It's usually which powder someone says is best, and they know because they have been reloading for over 50 years! And chest beating. And one-upmanship. Or calling someone's opinion or competency into question.

"I have been shooting the 22-250 for over 50 years!" (Yeah? So?)
"I was reloading when you were still [bleep] your diaper!" (What's your point? You're still an idiot!)
"Are you calling me a liar?" (Yes. Yes I am.)

And that's where I'll end.

Spin it how you may, glad you had more success with one than anyone I know................POS !!!!!!!!!

I shot holes in two shooting Chronys and two Pro Chronos first time out of the box.
Then I decided I can't be trusted with a handgun over a chronograph..... until I can hit the target every time.
I have not shot a hole in chronograph in 15 years.


But those short term relationships with shooting chrony taught me they are hard to trigger.

You make some interesting points.

That said, nobody is ever going to convince me that having accurate velocity data from a chronograph while working up loads isn't better than not having said accurate velocity data.

😉

I am not attempting to change anyone's mind. I merely point out that a chrono is not necessary. Many reloaders don't own one. They are an optional accessory. That's all.

I've got one of the original ones...... misses a shot every now and then. Used a friends Lab Radar the other day........
Both units read within just a few fps of each other.
Don't need to calculate BC or record velocity at distance. Just want an idea how fast they're going.
Are more expensive units better ? Probably.
Is it good enough for what I do ? Yeah.
That being said.... I wouldn't replace it with another. There are too many other good options for units that don't break the bank ......
But I won't replace it till it quits ! LOL

I don't see them as an optional accessory at all, but an often ignored necessity. There is not one single tool that is more useful for shooters, and even more so for handloaders.

Guessing isn't my thing in general, and really isn't when it comes to contained explosions right by my face.

Without a chronograph, you're guessing.

Maybe educated guessing, but guessing nonetheless......

They are still an optional accessory.

A few of you want them., but they are not a requirement. 😄

I agree with Steve, partly because I handloaded for around 18 years before buying my first.

We also don't need a press, or even a scale. There are ways to get around both, thanks to Lee Precision, if we're willing to accept certain limitations.

But like a press, a chronograph saves time, in more than one way. While many handloaders aren't interested in saving time (though many of them don't consciously realize it), because their loading bench is their "safe place." away from the distractions of so-called reality, some handloaders do like to save time.

Agreed

Oh, I agree. I just use one every time I'm working up a new load.

More data > less data.

Optional? True, but if you are shooting a lot at extended ranges with pre-plotted ballistics...you can save a ton of ammo with data from a chrono, and with uncertain supply chains and increased prices of components due to demand...the chrono is the cheapest investment, 2nd only to good optics. Just one more half baked opinion.

A good ballistics program can give your velocity according to your drops at distance based on sight in distance. No more ammo needed than shooting a over a chronograph and then shooting distance

Someone should start a thread asking about how to correctly use a chronograph.

Overheard at Cabelas...

1. Using a chronograph helped me see how fast my bullets were going and still be safe. I know they are fast and safe because I didn't see any pressure signs. My chronograph confirmed my loads.
2. Using a chronograph made me realize how much more propellant I could add. I increased the powder level until I got the same velocities that others were getting from their rifles.
3. Using a chronograph helped me determine what the maximum safe velocity was for my loads. It was easy. I just loaded what I had been using for years, but I actually got to see the velocity on the screen! I bought an Oehler so I could correctly measure my old loads. No Chronos, Caldwells, or Pro Chronos for me! I do not want to take a chance with a cheap chronograph and blow myself up!
4. Using a chronograph is easy. No skill or instruction is required. For example, I never worried about extreme spread or any of that stuff before. I was grouping an inch with my Savage 308, but after reading about extreme spread and the number of shots required to get an accurate reading, I am sure that I can build loads that will have single digit ES and therefore reduce the size of my groups to half what I am getting now!
5. If I don't use a chronograph, and just load according to the manual, is that dangerous? Should I buy one?
6. My buddy says I should just buy ballistics software. No point investing in a chronograph too.
7. I don't own a chronograph. My buddy says the only ones to consider are Oehlers or Labradar ones. They're expensive though! Why can't I just buy a Chrony? I don't care if it's 10 or 15 fps off.
8. Do I really need a chronograph? I was with my buddy who owns one. Setting them up is a PITA! And the guys at the range give me 'that look'!
9. Who needs a chronograph? Years ago, I bought Lee scoops. I add powder in the scoop and level it with a playing card. My rifle groups an inch at 100 yd! You guys are a hoot!

The ignorance is staggering

Like most everything else in life the truth is somewhere in the middle when it comes to Chrony chronographs, I would suggest that the biggest issue with them is with not setting them up properly. I have compared the velocity readings on mine against an Oehler and a LabRadar and all three were close enough that I do not have concerns about it giving bad readings, mine is 30 years old and still works just fine.

Chrony's seem to draw the same sort of condemnation as Remington bolt handles and Leupold scopes - "haters are going to hate", that's just human nature. As some other poster mentioned they made a product that was affordable and allowed a lot of folks to own a chronograph who couldn't have afforded one otherwise.

drover

I know what you mean. I wonder about these people.

Yesterday, I decided to test some reloads for my 222 Remington. The test bed was a Remington 788 with a 3x9 Leupold scope. The chrono was a Chrony.

So I get to the range and set up. I looked downrange through the scope and I noticed the crosshairs were leaning! What the...?!!? Then, when I went to cycle the action, the bolt handle came off in my hand! No more cheap Remingtons or crappy Leupolds for me!

But I was already there and thought I could make do. After this lousy beginning, what else could go wrong? The stupid Chrony wouldn't turn on, that's what! It was one of those red Chronys. I even tried two sets of fresh batteries. I was really disappointed. I found a good load with 50 gr. VMaxes, last time I was there. According to my notes, they grouped at half an inch, at 4025 fps avg.

WOW, time to back off the moonshine and take a rest Steve

I think you're upset because you like Remington rifles, Leupold scopes and Shooting Chronys.

Steve, i don't think you were using the right powder if all you could get was 4025fps😂
I did have the hairs tilt once while i was shooting a 30-06 with them saboted 55g 22's. Hand loaded of course! None of those pokey factory rounds for me.
4250 fps. Ground squirrels vaporized. Until i couldnt hit em. Sent the scope back to baush and lomb. They returned it in a week. Note with it said "tilt, you may want to check your loads!"
Maybe you want some saboted 223 55grainers? Or maybe a mdl 70 with a frozen bolt?😄😄

I think you're right. I am going to have to start using faster burning, spherical powder so I can cram more in!

I've had their very basic F1 Chrony for maybe 30 years now and it's been fine as far as I know. I check it regularly with subsonic Eley .22 RF ammo for measured consistency. Never any surprises so far. If it wasn't for the F1 Chrony being so affordable, I probably wouldn't have one. ( I never shoot it, never understood the need to do that). As far as lighting, you almost have to use an incandescent bulb to have any luck, fluorescent lamps with their 60 HZ flicker confuses the timing screens into thinking they are shadows of bullets passing thru the screens. This has been my observation anyway for the last thirty years. I think I gave $60 for it from Midway and that's not a bad return for 30 years of service.