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Magnum Primers #2 #15567754 12/25/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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As to not highjack someone else’s thread, I thought I’d start another.
I have done a lot of bullet testing over the years using the Bullet Test Tube. In that testing, learned several things. First, there aint no such thing as an ‘efficient “ cartridge. They all will blow unburnt powder into the media. But over the years I have observed that when using a magnum primer or a standard, the magnum always sends less unburnt powder into the media. What does that mean ? The only thing it means for sure is that less powder gets blown into the media.
Seems in the gun industry, a piece of info like that gets twisted into several other things. But in my mind, it only means exactly what “that” test proved.
Charlie


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
BP-B2

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15567912 12/25/20
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Referencing your comment about using pistol primers in rifle cases, can all primers withstand the same pressures? I have always thought that pistol primers were designed for lower pressures and were probably not as hot as a rifle primer of equal size.

Only time I ran into trouble was in using Remington 6 1/2s in a 223. They were given to me and I had never heard that they were only for low pressure loads. They are sure not marked that way. I figured all small rifle primers could be used where that size was needed. Several of them developed pin holes and pitted the bolt face.

Also, and this might need to be another thread, what are your opinions on gas handling of the various actions? I think Rem 700s are about the safest but how about Tikka and the new model 70 Winchesters? This would be in the event of a blown primer or ruptured case.

Thanks

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15567987 12/25/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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Anson
I’ll try to answer in the order you wrote.
I have always been told rifle primers have a thicker cup, saw several articles on this. Personally, I have not been able to prove this. But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. As for withstanding pressure, thats a wide discussion. Mainly depends on how good the fit between the bolt face and the case, and firing pin alignment, firing pin bore size, relationship between firing pin size and bore, firing pin shape, and the force it hits the primer. And headspace. And several other things.
I am not sure any more exactly what a “hot” primer is. In my mind, a hot primer is always a hot primer. But in some loads, the pressure and speed are the same as any other. So in my mind, a primer cant be hot sometimes, and other times not.
My testing is somewhat , or you could probably accurately say, extremely skewed . I usually test in a bolt rifle that I build. Straight chamber, bolt face, firing pin correct, correct headspace, etc. I would guess this allows for things you couldn’t do in other systems. I have saw some eye openers with ammo fired in semi-auto and full auto weapons. Thats a whole different game.
As far as gas handling, a Rem 700 is fine. Kind of depends on exactly what the failure is. But any of the modern bolt designs do well.
Charlie


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15568012 12/25/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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Another note...
Sometimes there is info put out by so called “experts” that do a small sample test, or sometimes none at all.
I have been doing this a long time. Spent a lot of time and money. And this I have learned, and told a friend recently:
I have spent enough time and money and effort and have enough recorded data to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that by god I dont know enough about what goes on in side a rifle barrel to advise anyone.”
My friend was somewhat “taken” by that statement. And after I studied it over, I was too.
Charlie


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15571837 12/26/20
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DBoston Offline
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Charlie thanks. Would like to see more on your testing. I am in the category of the more I know the dumber I get, no need to test that theory.

IC-A

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15572666 12/26/20
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Angus1895 Offline
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Charlie.....I don't know shirt...just trying to learn.

It seems to me that this reloading deal is a lot like zyrmungy.....the art of brewing.

Pitching the exact amount of yeast to cause the desired flavors in fermentation are best an art, not really a science.

It is absolutely fascinating. IMO. Thanks for your posts

John

But my question is just how much true variation is in a primer? How subtle are these variables in comparison to the variation in powder, cases, and bullet weight.

Thanks again

Last edited by Angus1895; 12/26/20.

"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills












Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15572824 12/26/20
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UncleAlps Offline
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FWIW, here is a fellow, James Calhoon, who sectioned and measured different primers and yes the cup thickness does get thicker between rifle and magnum rifle. Other factors vary as well such as hardness and tensile strength but these aren't easily measured by your average Joe (or James).


http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php


BTW, Charlie Sisk knows more than he lets on. So I've been told.


God Bless America
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573176 12/26/20
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300_savage Offline
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When this OP makes a post, I'll read it and try to learn something 🤔

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573382 12/27/20
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bwinters Offline
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Not really related but - I hope Charlie sticks around and posts more often. I used to enjoy his knowledge.


Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573505 12/27/20
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PaulBarnard Offline
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This is a very interesting topic to me. The latest run on primers found me a bit low on LR primers, but I was able to score a case of magnum primers. For as little as I reload, they will last a long time.

IC-B

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573549 12/27/20
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GSPfan Offline
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I read somewhere (I think it was P. O. Ackley) that powders of a certain burn rate such as IMR 4350 perform better with magnum primers vs large rifle primers. As I have several rifles that I use 4350 for I'm going to compare the results of std vs magnum primers regarding velocity and group size.

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573652 12/27/20
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alpinecrick Offline
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GSP,
I have tried LR vs LR mag primers quite a bit with H4350 and H4831 (and some other slowish burning powders) in 30-06 AI, 30-06, 280, 270, and 25-06 over the years.

More times than not mag primers increased group size. Mag primers usually resulted in a small increase in group size, once in a while a much larger increase. But once in a while it did noticeably decrease group size.

As I mentioned in the previous thread I’ve had mag primers decrease ES. There have been several times when mag primers decreased ES but increased group size!
Go figure........

At this juncture—but this could change—I think regular LR primers do a good job of igniting the extruded powders I mostly use.

I talked to a tech at Alliant at some length a few years ago about RL26 and mag primers in a 270. The tech also shot a 270 and had reviewed Alliant’s pressure data and pressure curves for the 270 w/ RL26. He said there was no indication that 60g of RL26 needed anything more than a regular LR primer and the powder was easily ignited even in cold weather.

He went on to say he might think about a mag primer at a 70g charge in a bigger cartridge.

I should also add there has been plenty of times there has been no apparent change in groups with LR vs LR mag primers, although velocity will increase a bit with the mag primers.


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573673 12/27/20
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Alpinecrick thanks for the info. I'm loading for 270,280,25-06, several 7x57's amongst others. 4350 H4831 and 4350 are some of my go to powders. I have been using H414 in a couple of the 7x57.s but will be substituting W760.

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573679 12/27/20
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Theo Gallus Offline
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Sisk
But over the years I have observed that when using a magnum primer or a standard, the magnum always sends less unburnt powder into the media. What does that mean ? The only thing it means for sure is that less powder gets blown into the media.

A wise man knows what he knows, and what he doesn't know.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15573697 12/27/20
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I’ve used cci 200s with h4831 in my dads 300wm got the past 15+ years without issues in temps from 90s down to below 0. Same load and goes bang every time. On a side note-he put a cheap Nikon buckmasters scope on it when he bought it and it has held zero since I sighted it in. He told me this year he’s never touched the dials since that day. Pretty amazing for a $200 or less scope and he is not gentle with his stuff.

Craig

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: UncleAlps] #15573943 12/27/20
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Dirtfarmer Offline
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Originally Posted by UncleAlps
FWIW, here is a fellow, James Calhoon, who sectioned and measured different primers and yes the cup thickness does get thicker between rifle and magnum rifle. Other factors vary as well such as hardness and tensile strength but these aren't easily measured by your average Joe (or James).


http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php


BTW, Charlie Sisk knows more than he lets on. So I've been told.

Calhoon is a real guru on CZ 527’s, small rounds and such. Check out his website. He’s easy to talk to, very helpful.

He, like Charlie, is someone who is meticulous with his data and info. Both are well worth ones time reading and learning. They both make our shooting and loading more interesting.

We may think about a problem, ask a question. They also do, then set about working on how to solve it. Few have the skills and equipment to do much of that. Yeah, we do appreciate them and guys like them.

DF

Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15574037 12/27/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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For those interested, y’all should read Harold Vaughns book titled “Rifle Accuracy Facts” . Mr Vaughn certainly doesn't have John Barsness writing skill, but there is a lot of good info there. I have read this book several times. Made a lot of the same test. Got a lot of the same results.
One of those test I could never understand, or maybe I couldn’t accept the results. Mr Vaughn was testing muzzle blast, and its consistency . The blast was hardly ever the same. In my mind, thats impossible.
So I did my own test. First, I developed a load in a 308 that had 6 fps extreme spread on a 10 shot group, and less than 200 psi swing on the pressure. It took a lot of brass and bullet sorting to get that ! Next I set up a bench outside in an area about 5 acres that was open and flat, grass mowed evenly. Then In an area about 20 ft diameter, I spread ground up fiberglass insulation, the kind you blow in. Spread about two inches deep. Then fired, made a little drawing of what the fiberglass did. Then waited for it all to settle, then smoothed and added until I had about two inches.
I tested this on four different occasions. Each time I would fire and record ten rounds. I dont think in all that test I ever saw the same effect twice. In my mind, thats impossible. But the test said otherwise.
Charlie


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Angus1895] #15574055 12/27/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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Angus
You maybe right. About a year ago I started making rhubarb wine. Seems every batch turns out different, even when I do the exact same things. BUT IT ALWAYS TASTES GOOD ! grin


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: UncleAlps] #15574081 12/27/20
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Charlie_Sisk Offline OP
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UncleAlps

BTW, Charlie Sisk knows more than he lets on. So I've been told. [/quote]

I dont know who told you that, but I wouldn’t put much stock in it. I have been looking at him in the mirror for a long time now, and he aint that smart. grin

But I have learned not to tell everything I know....several things I have tested, the results dont go with mainstream thinking, so its best legally, financially, and mentally to keep my mouth shut. grin


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
Re: Magnum Primers #2 [Re: Charlie_Sisk] #15574107 12/27/20
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BC30cal Offline
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Charlie;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope your Christmas was a good one and all that matter in your world are well.

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us, as a lifetime student of arms and a hand loader since '81, I very much appreciate your candor and approach to some of the more puzzling aspects as well.

When you and John Barness did a test on case shape years back - as I recall it was the same action and barrel, but cut to .300 H&H and .300WSM with the same load components used other than the cases of course. Anyways at the end - as I recall how John's story put it, you'd said more or less, "As with a few things in life this had led to more questions than answers."

That to my way of thinking indicates someone who I'll both respect and enjoy learning from as they've not arrived at any preconceived destination already, you know?

Anyways for what it's worth, I very much appreciate it.

All the best to you in 2021 and thanks again.

Dwayne


The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"

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