Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Powder for short barreled rifles?

Dwayne:

I have to say your responses to all questions posed on the fire are generally so well put that it matters little what the original question was.

That said, I thank you for this one which seems absolutely on point to my original question.

Do you have any insight on 4064 or other slightly faster burning powders than the 4895's?

Warm regards from Atlanta, as I sit before a flickering hearth (red oak and hickory mix) with dog at my feet, and I trust you and yours are staying warm and content in your corner of the world.

From folks who should know

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/re...eled-rifle-require-different-reload-data

DOES MY SHORTER BARRELED RIFLE REQUIRE DIFFERENT RELOAD DATA?
We often get this question. In asking, the customer is unsure if the different barrel length will necessitate a loading data change in the powder chosen. Let’s preface the answer with a quick guide on testing data.

All our data is tested for Pressure and Velocity with instrumented equipment as established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI). The dimensions of the test equipment are established by SAAMI, both internal (such as chamber) and external such as barrel length. The barrel length is set based upon most popular usage. Rifle calibers are set at 24 inch barrels. Handgun calibers are set based upon the most common use at the time, i.e. a 45 Auto barrel is based upon the barrel length of a 1911, and a 38 Special barrel based upon a standard police issue revolver.

The first thing to remember is that the chamber dimension does not change based upon application. A 223 Remington chamber is the same whether the gun it is in is a handgun or a rifle. The chamber dimension determines the pressure. So, the pressure is the same when fired in that chamber in a rifle or a handgun. The barrel length has no impact on the chamber pressure and hence the reloading data (powder charge and pressure).

The length of the barrel will change the actual velocity you observe. In general as the barrel gets shorter than standard the velocity will lower, and as the barrel gets longer than standard the velocity will increase. This does not change the reload data (powder charge and pressure), just the velocity.

Please note that there is no magic number for how much velocity is lost or gained by changing barrel length. This is because cartridges go from big to small and use varying amounts of different burn speed propellants. The only way to know for sure what the effect is with your different barrel length is to shoot over a chronograph.

So, the quick answer to the question is that the different barrel length will not change the reload data but it will impact the velocity you get.

All wonderful points if the issue is velocity, or chamber pressure, or the price of tea in China, none of which apply. The question asked is about muzzle blast.

Blu Cs;
Thanks for the reply and for the kind words again sir, I do appreciate them.

There is another powder that John Barsness has written about that will work like the H4895 and IMR4895 in that it's not upset burning at less than optimum pressure.

Most of the modern powders seem happiest when burning at peak pressure which will also give the most muzzle blast. The 4895s were okay burning at less than top end pressure so should and do give less blast.

I'll do some research in my library tomorrow and see what I can find and will drop you a line if or when I do.

We've shot IMR 4064 in the .308, the '06 and the 6.5Swede as well as the .30-30, but it was so long ago I can't comment intelligently on the muzzle blast. Though I don't recall it being any less than say IMR 3031.

I have fooled with reduced loads in a couple cartridges with the 4895s and there was less recoil and blast with them for sure. Interestingly, one was the .308 Norma Mag with 165gr bullets and it made a really nice shooting '06 with it.

Again, I'll take a look as there are more, I'm just not remembering where I put that bit of information right now. Sorry.

Dwayne

edit to add;
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf

Sorry. I, too, misunderstood your question.
Really can't offer anything.

........................Regardless of cartridge, you load the same way for a shorter barrel as you would for the longer 22", 23" , 24" or 26" barrels. Book listings of slower burning powders that show higher velocities from longer tubes (as an example RL17 in a 300 WSM) also will give higher velocities from the shorter tubes as well. Where velocities are concerned on average, figure about a 15-20 up to maybe a 25-30 fps decrease for every inch of shorter barrel length. In other words from my chrony experience using 2 other buds 300 WSM rifles a few years back and hundreds of rounds for the experiment, my shorty 300 WSM chrony 'd 95.5% the velocities of the longer 24" barreIed 300 WSMs using the same identical handloads. A 4.5% average velocity loss. I own a shorty 16.5" tubed 300 WSM Ruger Frontier (nicknamed MIGHTY MOUSE) which ballistically is a 24-26" barreled 30-06.......As far as which powders burn more efficiently from the shorter tubes? I say do not worry about that at all. Instead, your concern and focus should be what powders offer the best accuracy without sacrificing much if any in the velocity dept from the shorter barrel.....At the range firing max loadings from my Frontier, I notice no noticeable muzzle flash during day light hours. Instead, there is NOISE, a very loud report which of course is muffled with excellent hearing protection. I also own a 375 Ruger Alaskan with a 20" barrel. Aside from powder differences, I do nothing different with my 375 Ruger than with my 300 WSM. The same principles apply......Look in your reloading books and choose your powders accordingly based on what you wish to do based on the velocities you are looking for and just let the noise, burn efficiency and any potential muzzle flash fall by the wayside. If you wish for the lower velocities then use the faster burning powders.

Not always true. Depends on how much barrel you are lopping off.

Are you sure about that? That would imply that in some cases a longer barrel may actually be slowing a bullet down. Doesn't sound right.

Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters

Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!

H4895 will be the powder of choice for cartridges with a bore ratio similar to 7.62 NATO and 30-06. It has been tested by the best. There is a hint in there.

W748, W760 and other ball powders with similar burn rates.


Another hint. Gas ports are about mid barrel length in military arms.


Mid to heavy bullets within the particular cartridge would help also.


Bore ratio of the .243 Winchester ? You might have to live with what you got.

Correct, the powder that produces the highest velocity in a longer barrel will also produce the highest velocity in a shorter barrel.

Perfect, absolutely perfect explanation.
Thanks

To add to MickeyD's absolutely correct explanation, muzzle blast is not related to powder type. It is a function of remaining pressure at the muzzle. Peak pressure is achieved generally within a few inches of the chamber - although burn rate does affect this, it always happens quite soon after the bullet leaves the case mouth.

After that moment of peak pressure, the pressure decreases as the swept volume of the bore increases. An analogy being the volume change as a piston moves down a bore. As long as the pressure is high enough, the bullet will keep accelerating. However, in a long enough barrel, pressure would drop to a level that the bullet would begin to lose velocity and eventually come to a stop due to friction.

Muzzle blast, however, is mostly a function of barrel length. The shorter the barrel, the higher the remaining pressure when the bullet clears the muzzle, and thus the louder the blast. Less time and distance to accelerate is also why velocities are lower from a shorter barrel. But as this is about blast, the bottom line is that shorter means louder.

The assumption you offered in these two separate questions are the main reason you are not getting the simple answer you seek.

Your first question assumes that Muzzle flash is caused by unburned powder. As MickeyD has so eloquently explained to you, this is simply not true.

Your second question incorrectly assumes the same, that unburned powder is the cause of muzzle flash. You also incorrectly assume that shorter barrels produce more muzzle flas because the powder has less time to burn.

Those here have tried answer your question by first pointing out that your assumption as to the cause of MF are incorrect.
To supply you with a simple explanation as to how to reduce muzzle flash you must first be educated on what causes it, it Ain’t Unburned Powder and it Ain’t the short barrel.

Now if you wish to find out which powders produce less muzzle flash, first forget the barrel length and second lose the myth that it is caused by unburned powder.

Correct.

Correct.

No free lunch.

Less powder less blast. Someone mentioned it IMR3031 or maybe even H335 or faster yet AA2015. But, chamber pressure may be an issue. You will definitely get less bullet speed but if less blast is your target then less powder.
kwg

I thought I said that. I guess maybe I didn't.

Why the concern with MF, unless one is shooting at night?