Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Savage action springyness

Does anyone have a theory that can specifically explain the working mechanism of a Savage lever action rifles "springyness" and which parts or interactions create this condition, if indeed it does exist?

I just attribute it to the rear locking bolt. I don't think the action is particulary springy. Rear locking bolts tend to be harder on brass in comparison to something like a mauser action. With the 99, "it is what it is."

What is it that "gives"?

Does the bolt compress?

Does the bolt slide down the angled slope at the rear of the receiver slightly upon firing?

In the split second it takes for ignition after the firing pin drops is there some bolt movement before detonation expands the brass to the chamber walls?

Just curious what you guys that have studied it think is happening. Maybe some clues can be found in other arms of similar design.

I think it is the action flexes and puts the bolt in a bind with higher intensity loads. What I consider slightly above moderate handloads in the .308 have caused several different Savage 99's to flex and put the bolt in a bind, sometimes making it very difficult to open the action after firing. Once open, the rifle once again functions normally. Zero issues with the same load in a bolt action rifle. This year I am reducing my .308 loads to .300 Savage levels which have never caused an issue in a 99.

I am hoping the 450 Bushmaster does not cause this issue loaded at much lower pressures than the .308.

That's what I think is going on, zero clue if correct.

My theory is the flexing of the thin receiver walls which absorb the shock of the discharge, due to the rear lockup (which is beefy as heck but something has to give). Endemic to one degree or another with all rear lockup systems I think. Just a theory, I could be wrong.

I think the lesson to be learned here is that the .308 was “a bridge too far” for the 99. To be a higher pressure action it seems they should have made the walls a tad bit thicker. So if you are listening Savage, make the action thicker or of higher grade steel when you reintroduce the 99. As if!!

I believe some of you fellas make your own problems. When I started reloading MANY years ago, all I wanted to do then was to shoot more often. I couldn't afford to blast away factory ammo so the alternative was to hand load. Shoot more, shoot more often, for less money. I hunt deer, bear and moose. I always like the factory duplication loads mentioned in Lyman manuals. I chose Lyman because they don't try to sell you ammo OR components. I NEVER hot rod my loads. I have NEVER had a problem with ANY 99 I have loaded for. I have had one or two cases split at the neck, OLD BRASS, and one or two split at the base, OLD BRASS. MY FAULT for being too cheap. The 99 is a very good rifle for woods hunting in the east. I have seen how the westerners hunt/shoot at their game. As a rule easterners are MUCH closer to the game they shoot. You want to shoot 500/1000+ yards, go ahead, but not with a 99. Never ever had a stuck case in any of my guns. Never had a problem opening or closing the action of any of my 99's. To kill a deer OR bear OR moose, make the gun go bang and put the bullet where it belongs. 308 Win CAN be a bridge too far but only because it is pushed too far.

I was thinking on this..

Front locking bolts transfer the energy to the receiver quickly via the lugs at the front of the bolt. But this transfer "pushes" back on the rest of the receiver.
Rear locking bolts transfer the energy to the rear of the receiver, which then "pulls" the rest of the receiver rearward.

So I'm not sure at the receiver level there's much difference?

Just thinking..

think of a pole vaulter .that flex in the pole would go away if the pole was shorter .. like the actions in firearms the closer the locking surface is to the chamber the less flex there can be thus a front locking bolt gun is said to have a stronger action most modern actions are designed this way now .

plab

Plab, so do you tihnk it's the bolt flexing?

Sounds good to me.

Roy,

My thinking is that yes, the bolt does "slide" down the face of the receiver upon firing. The lever holds the bolt up, resisting this motion. I suspect that the bolt actually bends down very slightly where the lever contacts it, making it "shorter". If that is true, then the receiver bends up, also very slightly, getting "longer". All of this happens because of that angle where they meet. During the few milliseconds when the pressure is high, the cartridge stretches to fill the gap. When the pressure drops, everything goes back to its original position, making the whole assembly an interference fit. It's a lot easier to bend steel than to compress it.

Just my 2 cents.

The only problem I have ever encountered with reloads, or factory ammo, was with a Savage 99 in 308. It was in pretty rough shape when I got it. Nothing wrong internally, just lots of wear and tear on the outside. The fellow I got it from gave me some of his handloads. I took the rifle to the range and set up a target at 100 yards. When I fired the first round, everything seemed normal, but I could tell it was a hot load. When I opened the lever the only thing that came out was the case head. Total case head seperation. I would have thought I would have gotten a faceful of gas at the very least, but nothing unusual happened. The gun wasnt damaged and of course I didnt shoot anymore of his handloads. I have a lot more respect for the strength of the 99 since then, although I never hot rod any rifle.

Just for reference, this "flexing" occurs in my 99 .308's not with a hot rod load. 44 grains of 4064 with 150's gave best accuracy across my M1A's, Bolt Rifles, and the Savage 99's and became my "do it all load".
44 grains of 4064 is not a max load for the .308, 48 grains is. Most would consider this load moderate in the factory loading range, not hot.

The bottom line is that the Savage 99 functions best with ammunition with less pressure/intensity and that boundary needs to be have attention when handloading.

I have had two actions that I thought were torqued beyond salvation;

- one was 300 savage take-down, I don't know the serial #, I bought it as a basket-case before I was a card-carrying tinkerbell, so I didn't know any better. I could not get the bolt to raise into battery without a lot of lever pressure and crunching sounds, it appeared that the rear-end of receiver was twisted clock-wise a bit from the front end, maybe a degree or two, hard to see it..., didn't i sell that to You Roy? (..just kidding, it became my first attempt at Savage 99 lamp).

- second was a 284 basket-case, and the receiver ramp at the back of the bolt had a vertical fracture to the first screw hole on the tang. The bolt would not seat correctly in that one either. That one went toward someone's cut-away collection.

Both were obviously pushed beyond their capacity and "sprung", but did not spring back.. I think the 284's case pressure is pretty much at the design limit for the 99. Bolt actions are always going to be more durable hotrods, if that's your goal, but hey, you have two eyes...

Just from an engineering standpoint, let's examine the frame... the strongest design to resist linear forces of bolt thrust would be a bolt enclosing frame with 360 deg of radial support with a square bolt/frame abutment....but approximately 170 degrees of frame is missing between the 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock position. My theory is that at the moment of peak thrust the receiver flexes away from the 170 deg opening, perhaps violently (by engineering standards at least, you would need multiple strain gauges to record it). This, theoretically allows the inclined plane of the bolt/frame juncture to move from the 'at rest' mating, rear of the bolt perhaps going down the inclined plane and perhaps the frame flexing up and to the left (the rigid supported side). What happens at peak thrust with the cam that holds the bolt up on the inclined plane abutment is more conjecture (I don't have a 99 handy), but I guess there are working tolerances (slop) in the linkage and also the fact that the cam itself is not very robust, being an arc of maybe 3/16 thick ordnance steel? They are one of the most elegant sporting rifles ever built, I believe they are safe, but if I were an engineer I would call the design...adequate. I would have liked to be the fly on the wall at the meeting between engineering, sales and corporate when they decided to extend production to 60,000 psi cartridges.

Flint, your explanation is excellent.

The design was good at that time before high-intensity cartridges became the thing.

Didn't they build their 30-06 prototypes before the 243/308/358? And I believe the early catalogs list their rifles as being built with steel that will handle 100 psi. I'm sure they did a lot of testing, but a 30% increase in cartridge pressure after 60 years of production and people wildcatting with them probably gave them a pretty good idea it would hold up just fine.

JeffG, are you sure that 300 Savage takedown was loaded really hot? Or did it maybe have a horse roll on it or get driven over by a car? I've seen both of those of happen, I've never seen a receiver broken by hot loads. I've even seen a couple 99's with split barrels.

Roy I dont necessarily think it so much that the bolt flexes .. but you know the action I think the most flex in the action is is at the lever where it runs in that slot in the bolt , in my mind that's the point where things get weak if the "lever bite" is any but tight there's inconsistent lock up . JMO

plab
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I don't remember this coming up before so I linked it in the Misc.posting.