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Aviator,

"Mule Deer can you elaborate on the caliber specific powders?"--

A good example is Vihtavuori's N555, which is between their N550 and N560 in burn-rate. The specific application is the 6.5 Creedmoor with bullet from around 130 grains up. I recently tried it in my Bergara Ridge, which had shot pretty well but not exceptionally with the new 135-grain Hornady A-Tip with a couple of popular 6.5 CM powders. I didn't really work up a load with N555, just used the max charge VV lists for the 136-grain Scenar, with the A-Tip seated the same in the same brass, with the same primer. Three, 3-shot groups at 100 yards averaged .37 inch at around 2760 fps, better than the results with any of the other powders. A little tweaking of the powder charge and seating depth should improve on that.

One of their first specialty powders was N570, the slowest burning of the 500-seres (double-based) line, which appeared maybe a decade ago. It was originally intended primarily for the .338 Lapua Magnum, and worked very well. But another recent powder is N565, just a little faster burning than N570, which they say works best with 250-grain bullets in the .338 Lapua, while N570 works best with 300s.I haven't tried N565 with 250s in the .338 Lapua, because I haven't had one in quite a while, but I'll take their word for it, since N570 worked great in a couple of rifles with 300- grain bullets.

Of course, that doesn't mean such specific purpose powders won't work well in other cartridges with similar bore/powder capacity ratios and bullets of the same approximate sectional density. They probably would, but VV is willing to tweak powders for specific purposes, no doubt because their powders are so popular among target shooters, who tend to burn far more powder than hunters.


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Mule Deer ,thank you much for posting some more knowledge on powders that many of us don`t have ? Mule Deer i do have question : many of the new Reloading books show Reloader 25 is a good powder for a 257 Weatherby Mag. i tried this powder in that cartridge and i did get a little better results too. ? what do you think of Reloader 25 ?


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I had my 257 Wby put together in '07 when there was no '25/'26. I tried '22 and Ramshot Magnum. Magnum gave me better accuracy, lower ES/SD, and of course, meters like a dream.


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Originally Posted by pete53
Mule Deer ,thank you much for posting some more knowledge on powders that many of us don`t have ? Mule Deer i do have question : many of the new Reloading books show Reloader 25 is a good powder for a 257 Weatherby Mag. i tried this powder in that cartridge and i did get a little better results too. ? what do you think of Reloader 25 ?


I have used RL-25 in the .257 Weatherby, and it worked very well--but like other Alliant powders of that era isn't very temp-resistant. These days I'm using H1000.

IMR 7977 matches H1000s velocities but in my particular rifle (a New Ultra Light Arms) isn't quite as accurate.


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So MD, what does Alliant mean by “controlled temperature stability” and “provides a consistent, controlled response to temperature changes”? Not temp insensitivity? Asking for a friend....


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Originally Posted by WAM
So MD, what does Alliant mean by “controlled temperature stability” and “provides a consistent, controlled response to temperature changes”? Not temp insensitivity? Asking for a friend....


I would guess (and this is only a guess) is that's another way of stating the term I prefer to use, temperature resistance.

I have yet to test a powder that's absolutely stable at any temperature we might shoot in. Instead, some are stable in a wider range of temperatures, and even within that temperature range some will be more consistent than others.

Just about any smokeless rifle powder made today produces pretty consistent velocities in temperatures from the 20s to 80s, Fahrenheit--which is one reason quite a few handloading hunters claim to have never experienced any "problems" with temperature: Most hunting takes place in that temperature range. This is FAR better than smokeless rifle powders of a century ago, some of which varied considerably within that same temperature range.

Quite a few of today's powders will maintain consistent performance from 70 degrees down to zero, or even lower. In my experience (which in the past quarter-century or so has included a LOT of cold-testing) all the powders advertised as "temperature stable" will do this, as well as a few others not advertised as stable.

Above about 80, however, I have yet to encounter a powder that produces the same velocity, though the ones advertised as stable gain less velocity (indicating less pressure) than others. Of course, this is also affected by the heat of the barrel, which can increase considerably due to both sunlight and shooting--and how long we leave a cartridge in the chamber of a warmer barrel.

Might also mention (again, as I have in the past) that the specific cartridge/bullet application can also affect temperature resistance, as well as how much of the case is filled, powder compression, and the primer.


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Thanks, John. I have read your comments and test data in GG and find it interesting. I generally work up loads in the 40-50 deg F range and seldom shoot or hunt if it is below 10F or warmer than 75F (except at maybe a coyote of opportunity). I’m sure that’s the reason I have never seemed to have temperature problems with handloads. Other than .257 Roberts, most of my loads are a fuzz under max. Happy Trails


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Got a new magneto speed V3 and tested some loads today with the 6.5 creed and 280 rem. Both loads gave me 1/2” groups with zero pressure signs and were 5 shot strings. These are near max loads so obviously start lower. To say I am impressed is an understatement.

Tikka 6.5 Creed 24” Barrel
135 Grn Berger Classic Hunter
49.0 grn RL-26
Avg FPS = 2959
SD = 9.9
ES = 23

Remington 700 280 Rem Pacnor 22” Barrel
140 Grn Nosler Ballistic Tip
63.0 Grn RL-26
Avg FPS = 3181
SD = 13.1
ES= 17


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When I bought my 6.5 PRC the two powders everyone was posting load data for was H1000 and Retumbo, a few guys that had RL26 had some great numbers too. I couldn’t find any of the 3 powders initially. Then one day powder valley had RL26 in stock and I snagged up 4 lbs. Load development was a joke, I worked up some loads starting at 55 gr with the 139 Scenar and worked my way up to 56 and stopped there. Sub 1/2” group, 3060 ish fps , no pressure and that was it!

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Mule Deer I read and reread your above post several times.It’s priceless and one for the ages. Your experience and ability to write an explanation in a few words is greatly appreciated. Thanks! 👍

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Originally Posted by WAM
So MD, what does Alliant mean by “controlled temperature stability” and “provides a consistent, controlled response to temperature changes”? Not temp insensitivity? Asking for a friend....


When I talked to Alliant and asked that question the tech guy said that RL-26 will generally show a velocity loss as temperature drops, but does so in a linear fashion, and conversely, velocity will increase as temps increase. Temp sensitive powders will often show a sharp drop in velocity at some temperature threshold, usually that is in the low teens or single digits in my experience. What I originally learned from some guys who did a LOT of temp testing of powders beginning in the 80's, that it's usually when temps hit single digits one sees a significant drop off in velocity. But, accuracy may suffer even before velocity shows a decrease.

I have temp tested RL26 a number of times now with a 270 and 150 NPT's at 75-80 degrees,, at 35-40 degrees, at 8-15 degrees, and have tested two different lots (but not at all those temps), and it does show some temp sensitivity in my tests. The velocity loss isn't big, 25-35 fps, but is outside of the margin of "error" that will happen when chronographing shot strings at different times. But the accuracy still seems to be there.

What has messed me up on following this up is that with three different lots of RL26, each lot has been successively slower. Lot three is 60-70 fps slower in two different 270's than the first lot.


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R26 is showing promise in my 340 Wby. Need to get out and shoot a little more before getting out the anointing oil though. R26 would appear to be too slow for the 340 but I can't safely stuff it full so I guess it's not! So far I've only used it with 250 grain bullets. I have some 270s and 285s to try as well..


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I have only seen the temperature sensitivity in R-26 at above 90 degrees and it appeared to be a spike not the gradual lineal increase/decrease at more normal temperatures. My load was max and rifle and ammo were in the sun. I dropped back a grain and a half instead of the usual half a grain just to make certain I could shoot those loads in hot weather or if I left the ammo in a hot vehicle accidentally.

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I shot some more R26 today in my 340 Wby. I think it is too slow for the 250s but settled down nicely with the 270s and 285s. Those dang 285s seem to push back a little!


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I have really enjoyed this thread. Thanks to all the contributors for such a good discussion.

I have limited experience compared to most that posted. I used R22 in one of our .257's until I had high pressure on a 95° day. The combination of the ambient temperature and chamber/ barrel heat caused a very heavy bolt lift. This was in my son's. 257. I use H1000 in mine and never experienced that. I switched over in his rifle and no issues under the same temps.

I am done with R22 and R25 for that matter. If I only shot during the winter it might be fine but why use it when there are other choices?

Now days my main powder supply primarily consists of H1000, H4350, IMR 4350, Varget and TAC. The only magnum that I shoot is the .257


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I shot some R22 today with the R26 as well, i believe (my lot anyway) R22 IS slower that R26. I need to bump my load s up but I'm getting much higher velocity with R26 with the exact same charge as R22.


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R-26 will usually produce higher velocities than R-22 and also can usually handle up to 1-1.5 grains more than R-22 depending on cartridge and load. Cross reference the load and watch your chronograph as the pressure will sneak up on you with R-26 especially over about 85-90 degrees temperatures.

I have been in Alaska when the temperatures got this high or more but the water was still too cold for swimming. Did one lap across the Unalakleet and I think I could have sung falsetto afterwards, didn't try.

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In my 7 Rem Mags N570 gives me the fastest speed, spinning 160 AB's.

77.0 grains for 3,230 mv. Good accuracy too, but not as good as IMR 7977.

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I have tried it in the following:
7mm Mauser
175gn Partition over 50gn for 2562fps. 49gn was more accurate at MOA but R26 was slower than R 17 which generated 2640fps and very tight groups. I feel this powder is a little slow to generate best velocities in this case.

280 Ackley Imp
150gn Nosler BT - I worked up to 64gn with this bullet for 3027fps and MOA groups but R22 and R17 beat it slightly by about 30-5-fps and generate better accuracy both under MOA from this 22" barrel.

154gn Hornady SP - 63gn generated 2886fps.

160gn Accubond - 63gn generated 2891 and .75MOA accuracy using Fed 210 and 2876fps and just n=under .5MOA using the same load and CCI 200 primer.

160gn Partition - 63gn for 2937fps though 62gn was more accurate at 2846fps.

175gn Accubond - 62gn generated 2892fps which I feel is perhaps a warm load though no excess pressure indicators were present.

175gn Partition - shot very tight .6MOA groups using 62gn but I encountered a slightly sticky bolt though not on all cases, so it is likely a grain or more too high though the cases were still tight in the primer pockets when being examined and re-annealed for the 2nd time for their 6th reloading.

7mm Remington Magnum
160gn Partition - 69gn shot some very fine accuracy at 3048fps

175gn Partition - My accuracy load was 68gn for 2990fps at best accuracy of .309". I did try up to 69gn and 3071fps by accuracy opened up to just over MOA.

.30/06
200gn Accubond - 62gn developed 2633fps which is no better than the 4350's so I need to try a little more here.

200gn Barnes TTSX - This bullet is sold as the LRX now, but Barnes provided samples to me under the TTSX label. 62gn of Rel 26 generated very tight .4" range grouping at 2724fps so I stopped here at this load will take anything a 30 caliber rifle could possibly be used on.

200gn Partition - This bullet digested 63gn for 2696fps in my Featherweight with 22" barrel and good accuracy. I did record that the increase in velocity was marginal over the 62gn loads.

220gn Partition - 60gn generated 2486fps and I will try an extra grain as the load was mild in my rifle.

.338 Winchester Magnum
225gn Partition - 77gn generated 2742fps so appears a little slow for this case size.

225gn Accubond - The same 77gn generated 2777fps.

250gn Partition - 76gn generated 2637fps.

250gn Accubond - 76gn generated 2656fps.

265gn Barnes TTSX - 72gn generated the tightest groups in the .3" range and 2496fps and I worked up to 74gn for 2536fps so there isn't a lot of gain for grain. groups went from .274" to .650" but it should be noted that bullet seating was well out at 3.375" as I was using a Mark V rifle with 24" barrel.

285gn Barnes TSX - 71gn generated 2478fps and is around .8MOA for accuracy in my rifle.

NOTE: An important point to relay at this stage, is that the last 5 loads (excepting the 225gn Partition) all shoot into a composite 1.1" group so were interchangeable. That makes this Weatherby Mark V rifle extremely desirable as a hunting rifle for an awful lot of big game species. The seating die was the same setting for 265 and 285gn bullets where the 285gn settled a little deeper for an OAL of 3.322".

Now, where can anyone find this stuff?


John


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Tag 26 info. Thanks


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