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220 Swift although I still use it on yotes.


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Originally Posted by Southtex
You rarely see the 7mm Wby anymore.....which besides the ballistics is a reason why it is one of my favorites....


It's still a great round. I shot my first caribou with one at age 13, 60 years ago.


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The almost complete absence of 22 Savage HP ammo and Hornady's dropping their 70gr bullet for the fat 22 has pretty much killed it in the USA. It's more popular in Europe than here.


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I have been in a number of stores that sell guns and ammo over the past several months. The run on ammo had most of them, with the exception of a few of the big stores, almost completely out of centerfire ammo by the time deer season got here. I saw three chamberings available at most of the places I checked.........................25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. While I consider the 7mm and 300 magnums to be a little too much for whitetails, the 25-06 is pretty much perfect.
I'm not saying those cartridges are "dying", but they are certainly not as popular as they once were., at least not here where I am.

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Originally Posted by Ramblin_Razorback
Many case studies could be written on how Remington botched the introduction of cartridges with tremendous potential. I'm trying to think of Remington cartridges that have fully lived up to their potentials, and I'm coming up with three: .222, .223, and .25-06. The 7mm Rem Mag may be more popular than the .25-06, but the strange 7mm Rem Mag pressure issues that have been reported take some of the luster off. The 7mm-08 has fared better than many Remington cartridges, but it hasn't been the overwhelming success that the somewhat similar 6.5 Creedmoor has been for Hornady.

The .260, .280, and 6mm Rem sagas illustrate how to take what should be all-time great cartridges and botch their introductions, and then the "reintroductions" for the .280 and 6mm Rem fell short, too.


I remember reading someplace that Remington marketing people would label fried chicken as "warm dead fowl" or some similar remark as a comment on their smarts performance. As a 6mm Rem, 280 Rem and 300 SAUM shooter and modified Walker trigger user I can share your pain...

jim


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Originally Posted by jwall
Originally Posted by brydan
Originally Posted by moosemike
6.8 SPC is vanishing


Seems like the case is more popular for wildcatting than it is in It's original form.


6.8 what ? Never seen one...... smirk


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Originally Posted by JamesJr
I have been in a number of stores that sell guns and ammo over the past several months. The run on ammo had most of them, with the exception of a few of the big stores, almost completely out of centerfire ammo by the time deer season got here. I saw three chamberings available at most of the places I checked.........................25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. While I consider the 7mm and 300 magnums to be a little too much for whitetails, the 25-06 is pretty much perfect.
I'm not saying those cartridges are "dying", but they are certainly not as popular as they once were., at least not here where I am.

That's just a regional thing. I can't find 300 Win Mag ammo anywhere around me

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What if Remington had left off the belt and introduced the 6.5 Remington Magnum in a more suitable rifle ?


Mathew 22: 37-39



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Cartridges that are vanishing? Well, from the appearance of the local store shelves ... ALL of them. frown Last night I went into the store where I used to buy my ammo and components. The ammo shelf was full of off-brand loss leader scope and for components they had 3 pounds of Triple Seven (pellets, I think) and a couple boxes of 6mm Sierras. It's .. bad.


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Out of all the cartridges I've seen discussed here so far, I haven't noticed any for which brass/ammo isn't obtainable, at least on the part of a shooter with some determination and sleuthing skills. In that respect, have any truly vanished?

If you want one that truly has vanished, try finding brass/ammo for .25-20 Single Shot, and its progeny the .22-3000/R2 Lovell/.22 Maximum Lovell wildcats. It's been 70 years now since the last factory stuff was made, and cases from boutique brass makers have come and gone. A lot more rifles exist in those chamberings than you might imagine (I personally own three), and those of us who shoot them jealously hoard the precious brass. (It's of an odd dimension that doesn't lend itself to being made from anything else.) These things were everywhere back in the 30's-40's, a highly popular .22 CF varmint round. Then overnight the ammo vanished, almost literally. What killed it? The .222 Remington, a Remington success story that IMO makes up for their fumbling the 6mm/.280/.260 footballs.


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Yep, Remington has introduced quite a few very successful cartridges. Those that were initially successful and remained so for many years include the .222, which would probably be popular if it hadn't been modified into a military round which took the .222's place, and the 7mm Remington Magnum awas major triumph. They were also smart about "civilizing" so many popular wildcats, including the .22-250, .257 Roberts, .25-06, 7mm-08, .7mm STW, .35 Whelen and .416 Magnum (which had been around as an almost identical wildcat for a while). Some of those faded due to other factors, but they were very successful for several years after introduction.

The .350 Magnum also did reasonably well, and still appears now and then, but eventually had to compete with the .35 Whelen.

But they screwed up in various ways on other rounds, including the 5mm Magnum rimfire, .244/6mm, .260, 6.5 Magnum, and 8mm Magnum. The SAUMs are pretty good rounds, but Remington had the misfortune of introducing them a little after the WSMs. The story I have heard through the industry is that Winchester got wind of the impending SAUMs, so rushed the WSMs into production,, and since the SAUMS weren't quite as zippy, the WSMs won. Remington gets blamed a lot for their handling of the .280, but they never intended it to be a bolt-action round--though the 7mm Express was a major screw-up.

However, Winchester has had their share of screw-ups as well, the WSSMs being a prime example. But there were also the .219 Zipper, .225, .256, .307, .356 and .375 Winchesters. I doubt if any of those ever recouped Winchester's R&D costs.


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The 8mm Magnum was an answer to a question that was never asked. That being said, I would not mind owning another one or better yet, having one built with a 26" barrel on a Mauser action.


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The 6.5 Remington Magnum was also apparently the product of a fevered theorist at Remington. The intent was to provide .270-like ballistics in a "woods carbine," but apparently not many woods hunters wanted .270 ballistics.

With the major exception of the 7mm Magnum, Remington seems to have had pretty poor luck with their "metric caliber" introductions. That said, the 7mm SAUM is still hanging on, though more as a target round than for hunting. This kind of puzzled me--I owned and hunted with one considerably after it came out, and it was basically a short-action .280 AI, and introduced when short actions were getting a lot of love.


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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by JamesJr
I have been in a number of stores that sell guns and ammo over the past several months. The run on ammo had most of them, with the exception of a few of the big stores, almost completely out of centerfire ammo by the time deer season got here. I saw three chamberings available at most of the places I checked.........................25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. While I consider the 7mm and 300 magnums to be a little too much for whitetails, the 25-06 is pretty much perfect.
I'm not saying those cartridges are "dying", but they are certainly not as popular as they once were., at least not here where I am.

That's just a regional thing. I can't find 300 Win Mag ammo anywhere around me


I don't know about now, but I saw about 10 boxes in a local Walmart about a month ago, along with some 7 mag.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yep, Remington has introduced quite a few very successful cartridges. Those that were initially successful and remained so for many years include the .222, which would probably be popular if it hadn't been modified into a military round which took the .222's place, and the 7mm Remington Magnum awas major triumph. They were also smart about "civilizing" so many popular wildcats, including the .22-250, .257 Roberts, .25-06, 7mm-08, .7mm STW, .35 Whelen and .416 Magnum (which had been around as an almost identical wildcat for a while). Some of those faded due to other factors, but they were very successful for several years after introduction.

The .350 Magnum also did reasonably well, and still appears now and then, but eventually had to compete with the .35 Whelen.

But they screwed up in various ways on other rounds, including the 5mm Magnum rimfire, .244/6mm, .260, 6.5 Magnum, and 8mm Magnum. The SAUMs are pretty good rounds, but Remington had the misfortune of introducing them a little after the WSMs. The story I have heard through the industry is that Winchester got wind of the impending SAUMs, so rushed the WSMs into production,, and since the SAUMS weren't quite as zippy, the WSMs won. Remington gets blamed a lot for their handling of the .280, but they never intended it to be a bolt-action round--though the 7mm Express was a major screw-up.

However, Winchester has had their share of screw-ups as well, the WSSMs being a prime example. But there were also the .219 Zipper, .225, .256, .307, .356 and .375 Winchesters. I doubt if any of those ever recouped Winchester's R&D costs.


Do you think that the WSSMs would have been more successful if the Browning and Winchester rifles chambered in 223 WSSM had been made with a 1-8" ROT
rather than the 1-10" ROT that they got and if Winchester/USRA hadn't closed shop in New Haven so soon after the WSSMs were introduced?

I have been told that the Winchester/USRA factory needed a big infusion of capital to do major equipment upgrades and that there were quite a few QC issues during the last couple of years that they were operating due to a lot of worn equipment and a few disgruntled/indifferent employees.

EDIT: There is a long list of cartridges that were introduced since the end of WW2, the following are just a few that have failed to become standards in their market niche;

17HM2
17 REM FB
5MM REM MAG
22 REM JET
221 REM FB
222 REM MAG
225 WIN
244/6MM REM
256 WIN MAG
260 REM
6.5 REM MAG
264 WIN MAG
7-30 WATERS
280 REM
284 WIN
7MM REM UM
307 WIN
8MM REM MAG
338 FED
338 REM UM
350 REM MAG
356 WIN
358 WIN
375 WIN

2x REM SAUMs
3x WIN WSSMs
4x WIN WSMs

Consumers aren't always right, but most of the time the cream still rises to the top.

Last edited by 260Remguy; 01/13/21. Reason: Added comment
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Jeff,

I don't think the WSSMs would have been a success even with a 1-8 twist in the .223. There were several other problems.

Their big problem was their shape/head-size requiring entirely new bolt-actions from both Browning and Winchester. One thing that definitely helps newly introduced cartridges (which often mostly appeal to real rifle loonies) become establsihed is being able to rebarrel existing actions to the new round. This was difficult with the WSSMs, since they were both so fat AND short.

Plus, while the .223 produced faster velocities than the .22-250 and .220 Swift, the velocities of the .243 and .25 WSSms didn't improve on already existing rounds. I know quite a few rifle loonies, and only two purchased .25 WSSMs--and one of those was a fellow gun writer who got his at a discount. Never ran into anybody who owned a .243 WSSM, perhaps because even then the trend was to 1-8 twists in 6mms, and like the .223 the factory twist was 1-10.

Of course, Winchester shutting down didn't help, but the WSMs survived the hiatus in production. As noted in an earlier post I purchased a new Model 70 in .300 WSM in 2008, and three of the four original WSMs (all except the 7mm) are still chambered in Browning and Winchester rifles, and the .300 WSM is regularly chambered a bunch of other American-made rifles, as well as by European companies including Blaser, Sako and Tikka.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
The 6.5 Remington Magnum was also apparently the product of a fevered theorist at Remington. The intent was to provide .270-like ballistics in a "woods carbine," but apparently not many woods hunters wanted .270 ballistics.

With the major exception of the 7mm Magnum, Remington seems to have had pretty poor luck with their "metric caliber" introductions. That said, the 7mm SAUM is still hanging on, though more as a target round than for hunting. This kind of puzzled me--I owned and hunted with one considerably after it came out, and it was basically a short-action .280 AI, and introduced when short actions were getting a lot of love.

Sounds like what Winchester tried to do with the .284 Win.


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Except Winchester chambered the .284 in "woods" rifles, a lever and semiauto, not a bolt-action carbine.


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Yup.


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seems that no one has mentioned the Nosler proprietary list of cartridges. I have a 26 Nosler and am quite satisfied with it. It would seem that the Nosler cartridges are eventually going to go away as not many manufacturers are chambering rifles for them.


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