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Googling has yielded nothing but confusion so here I am. Looking for a .338 30/06 length cartridge, I have been looking at these two but, it is unclear to me if they are exactly the same or, what difference exists.

Or put a different way, if I buy a used 338/06 AI how do I know if it is safe to shoot loaded 338/06 A-Square? I get one is SAAMI and one is a wildcat but, it seems pretty standardized. I guess I could always buy a rifle and cut a 1/4" off and rechamber with an A-Square reamer but, that seems pretty wasteful without any other reason to clean up the chamber.

And no, I have no love for a 325 WSM. Separate from WSM brass, 8mm reloading options are not what I want. A 338 WM is also redundant (more so) as I have a 358 Norma Magnum if I need a bigger boomer for something like Elk or an Alaskan bear.

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I do not have exactly either of what you are asking about but I do have a 338-06. I believe the A Square is basically the same as the aforementioned 338-06. They just standardized the old wildcat and put their name on it. The 338-06 AI is the Ackley improved version and is different than the A Square or standard version.
I know I like my standard version..
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Tankerjockey is right per my understanding. When A-Square submitted the 338-06 to SAAMI for standardization they submitted the standard 338-06 that was know to wildcatters for years and since it cost considerable money to have these cartridges standardized A-Square wanted their name on it. The 338-06 AI is the Ackley version of the standard 338-06/338-06 Asq.

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338/06 thread

For this used rifle, it looks like I can safely take a loaded A-Square round and fire it and then compare the shoulder angle to see if it is 17.5 or 40 degrees and go from there. I'm not sure the case capacity differences matter in this round but, a 40-degree shoulder should headspace easier and prevent brass growth over a lot of firings.

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I started into the thread above & about 1/2 way down the first page gave up. It's the usual one or two dick-waving campfire experts that have only read about something, repeating it over & over 'til it becomes fact against other people with some actual knowledge of the subject.

Nosler #8 says the 338-06 A-Square has 17*30' shoulder & that standard 30-06 brass & a tapered expander is all that's needed. Sierra VI says the shoulder is 17*16'. Damned little difference. Not sure where the 34* thing came from. If there's concern go with a plain old 338-06 with the 06 shoulder. I dont own an A-Square & have never seen one in person, but I do own & shoot a 338-06 Ackley. The rifle was built about 30 years ago to get the 210 Partition to lower end 338 WinMag speeds. It was successful. The barrel is 25". We were going to test fire at full barrel length & then shorten as needed, but balance is perfect & it shoots pretty good so it stayed full length. It might have been enlightening to see how much velocity loss per inch there was. It's just fine the way it is. Using about 10 gr. less powder than 338WinMag, a case full of H4350 or RL17 in WW brass just squeaks past 3000fps.

The reason I went with the Ackley is that I was buying 1/2 the reamer anyway so might as well get something different. Both the Ackley & standard 338-06 were wildcats back then so dies cost the same. Like the improved 35 Whelen there is not a whole lot of improvement capacity wise, but there is some. I doubt that anything shot would be able to tell the difference. Since it's not a Whelen or a standard 06 the low SAMMI pressure spec for those 2 means zip. I load mine warm but brass life is excellent, primer pockets remain tight, & with the 40* shoulder case trimming is less than rare. If using an 06 case it will fireform about .030-.040" short & takes about 8 or 10 firings, or more, to get to max case length. I've also used 280 Rem & 35 Whelen brass which may need trim after fireforming. The 280 will need trim before loading after expanding the neck & pushing the shoulder back.

Edit: Good luck finding 338-06 A-Square ammo. A-Square is gone & Weatherby stopped loading ammunition. If you buy an Ackley you *should* be able to shoot factory 06 necked up with no trouble. It depends on who does the work. Minimum spec brass or a sloppy chamber (length=headspace) may give you incipient case separations maybe on the 1st firing. Since it's a handloading proposition, you can control the headspace. My sizing die is set with no reason to move it... ever. This took some fiddling & lost a few pieces of brass before all these nifty measuring tools were available & we did everything by feel. At the same setting I can resize fired brass or make new without headspace problems. I'm liking the idea of Whelen brass more & more due to the ever so slight 2ndary shoulder that gets formed with the initial sizing down, but 280 or plain old '06 works too.

Last edited by 358WCF; 01/14/21.

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Originally Posted by 358WCF
I started into the thread above & about 1/2 way down the first page gave up. It's the usual one or two dick-waving campfire experts that have only read about something, repeating it over & over 'til it becomes fact against other people with some actual knowledge of the subject.

Nosler #8 says the 338-06 A-Square has 17*30' shoulder & that standard 30-06 brass & a tapered expander is all that's needed. Sierra VI says the shoulder is 17*16'. Damned little difference. Not sure where the 34* thing came from. If there's concern go with a plain old 338-06 with the 06 shoulder. I dont own an A-Square & have never seen one in person, but I do own & shoot a 338-06 Ackley. The rifle was built about 30 years ago to get the 210 Partition to lower end 338 WinMag speeds. It was successful. The barrel is 25". We were going to test fire at full barrel length & then shorten as needed, but balance is perfect & it shoots pretty good so it stayed full length. It might have been enlightening to see how much velocity loss per inch there was. It's just fine the way it is. Using about 10 gr. less powder than 338WinMag, a case full of H4350 or RL17 in WW brass just squeaks past 3000fps.

The reason I went with the Ackley is that I was buying 1/2 the reamer anyway so might as well get something different. Both the Ackley & standard 338-06 were wildcats back then so dies cost the same. Like the improved 35 Whelen there is not a whole lot of improvement capacity wise, but there is some. I doubt that anything shot would be able to tell the difference. Since it's not a Whelen or a standard 06 the low SAMMI pressure spec for those 2 means zip. I load mine warm but brass life is excellent, primer pockets remain tight, & with the 40* shoulder case trimming is less than rare. If using an 06 case it will fireform about .030-.040" short & takes about 8 or 10 firings, or more, to get to max case length. I've also used 280 Rem & 35 Whelen brass which may need trim after fireforming. The 280 will need trim before loading after expanding the neck & pushing the shoulder back.

Edit: Good luck finding 338-06 A-Square ammo. A-Square is gone & Weatherby stopped loading ammunition. If you buy an Ackley you *should* be able to shoot factory 06 necked up with no trouble. It depends on who does the work. Minimum spec brass or a sloppy chamber (length=headspace) may give you incipient case separations maybe on the 1st firing. Since it's a handloading proposition, you can control the headspace. My sizing die is set with no reason to move it... ever. This took some fiddling & lost a few pieces of brass before all these nifty measuring tools were available & we did everything by feel. At the same setting I can resize fired brass or make new without headspace problems. I'm liking the idea of Whelen brass more & more due to the ever so slight 2ndary shoulder that gets formed with the initial sizing down, but 280 or plain old '06 works too.


Thanks!

Part of the 17 vs 34 degree shoulder angles is SAAMI vs. European standards (they use both sides of the case for the total angle vs. just the shoulder by itself).

Also, good tip on using 35 Whelan brass, though it sounds like regular ol' 30-06 might be a good way to go too!

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If I am unsure of headspacing, I routinely expand new brass to the next larger neck size, then size it down in the full length resizer so it is snug but not real tight before loading it. I had a 338-06 AI but am not convinced it added much if any velocity. Feeding could be a problem, and that is why shoulders were gentle until Ackley came along and sought a way for a bit more and some fame. Most of the improvements out to be from running higher pressures. In 1957, Elmer wrote that his .333 OKH should be updated with .338 since the advent of the 338 win mag would result in much better 338 stuff vs. the old 333 Kynoch which hadn't performed very well for him. If I wanted a bit more velocity, I would just use a 26" barrel vs. the customary 22-24".


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All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...


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Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.

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Originally Posted by Seafire
All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...

I have a 338-06. I neck up '06 brass, easy using sizer with tapered expander. All my 338-06 ammo has '06 headstamps...

Don't think I'd go AI with that one. Seems to me the reward wouldn't justify the hassle..

DF

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Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.


Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Seafire
All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...

I have a 338-06. I neck up '06 brass, easy using sizer with tapered expander. All my 338-06 ammo has '06 headstamps...

Don't think I'd go AI with that one. Seems to me the reward wouldn't justify the hassle..

DF


I don't think any are worth the hassle


Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.




+1



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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.


Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Seafire
All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...

I have a 338-06. I neck up '06 brass, easy using sizer with tapered expander. All my 338-06 ammo has '06 headstamps...

Don't think I'd go AI with that one. Seems to me the reward wouldn't justify the hassle..

DF


I don't think any are worth the hassle


Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.




+1



Some rounds benefit from AI, some not so much.

30-06 is oft said to not be worth the trouble, think I'd include 338-06 in that group.

I'd like to hear from those who think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.


Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Seafire
All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...

I have a 338-06. I neck up '06 brass, easy using sizer with tapered expander. All my 338-06 ammo has '06 headstamps...

Don't think I'd go AI with that one. Seems to me the reward wouldn't justify the hassle..

DF


I don't think any are worth the hassle


Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.




+1



Some rounds benefit from AI, some not so much.

30-06 is oft said to not be worth the trouble, think I'd include 338-06 in that group.

I'd like to hear from those who think otherwise.

DF


The 375 H&H definitely benefits as does the 300 H&H



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An article in Handloader some decades ago tested the .30-06 std vs. AI and iirc concluded that there was minimal difference in velocity if pressures were the same (using measurement of the pressure ring on the brass to .0001").


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I think it depends upon the reason you’re AI’n.

The larger the diameter of the bullet atop an 06 case the less gain there is capacity-wise from AI’n so in that respect a 338 doesn’t seem like a good candidate.

On the other hand AI’n reduces case stretch so trimming is left to a minimum which is nice.

If you have a .30-06 in the stable and want to use 06 brass the AI shoulder will make recognition of one from another easier if things get confused.

I personally used .270 brass when I had a 338-06 and it worked beautifully, requiring an initial trim and anneal job.

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If head stamp is important to you then the '06 case necked to .338 is great.

If performance is important to you take a look at the 338 RCM.
My 22" barreled one sends 225 Accubonds @ 2,750 with a dose of 61.0 grains of RL16.

It's a 338 Improved in a shorter all around package.

4 rounds in the belly too.

Mainer in AK has figured out how to do it.

Quote
"I figured a way to fit 4 rounds down in the 338 rcm:

The rifle would fit 4 rounds in the mag, but bolt wouldnt close, due to the ejector needing space to articulate down into the magazine when the bolt is closed.

Since the case has very little taper, the magazine follower has very little taper. I simply flipped the follower around. Now, the ejector side was left open so that you could close the bolt. It was tight. I had to file a bit off the bottom of the follower and those raised portions of the inside of the floor plate.

I also had to flush-file off the excessive material of the trigger guard that holds the magazine box in place, so that the follower could articulate downward in the magazine without catching up.

Bam.......4 rounds down."

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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.


Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Seafire
All I can add to this conversation is as follows..... and forgive me if it is of no interest to your question...

I have a 338/06 which was a rebore on a 270 barrel on a Model 70 LA.

A good friend has a 338/06 AI on a Ruger Long Action, and an ER Shaw chambered barrel...

We were together at the range one day with our chronographs... just ran into each other testing loads and happen to have the 338/06s with us..

We had several loads using the same powder and bullets... both with 24 inch barreled rifles..

Mine consistently had about 100 fps more velocity than his did using the same bullets and same powder... although his happened to have a few more grains loaded, it being an AI...

we both were shooting 200 and 225 grain Hornady SPs in ours...

the best accuracy was using H 380 powder for both of us...and also pretty close to top in velocity also...

Greg replaced his barrel ( and sold it) and rebarreled with a Shaw 338/06 barrel.... that one did better in velocity than the AI version
and was less fincky, being able to skip the fireforming step on the brass...

best of luck on your choice...338/06 is a damn fine caliber... my 338 mag has been a dust collector ever since...
I'd get rid of the 338 Mag, if I didn't have the flaw of not getting rid of an accurate rifle... the 338 Mag is also a Model 70...

I have a 338-06. I neck up '06 brass, easy using sizer with tapered expander. All my 338-06 ammo has '06 headstamps...

Don't think I'd go AI with that one. Seems to me the reward wouldn't justify the hassle..

DF


I don't think any are worth the hassle


Originally Posted by efw
Keep in mind that Ackley’s original idea around the “Ackley Improved” concept was that the chamber be cut in such a way as to headspace on the shoulder of the parent cartridge. Therefore, an “AI” chamber cut properly will allow firing of both 338-06 A-Square & 338-06 AI cartridges.

The 35 Whelen brass idea posted above would remedy the problem of an AI chamber improperly cut, but shouldn’t be necessary if properly executed.




+1



Some rounds benefit from AI, some not so much.

30-06 is oft said to not be worth the trouble, think I'd include 338-06 in that group.

I'd like to hear from those who think otherwise.

DF


The 375 H&H definitely benefits as does the 300 H&H


Hornet, too.

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I built a 375 Whelen AI. The feed ramps and the lips of the magazine on the Mauser needed modification. (I hate relying on me to be doing modification on things like the feed ramp and the magazine lips.) Amazingly enough, it now feeds both a standard 35 Whelen expanded to 375 and an AI version. I would not have done that but for a couple of reasons.

The reamer and dies were available in the AI version. There was a long wait for 375 Whelen and 375 Brown Whelen reamer and dies otherwise. I was worried about the shoulder, but that would may not have been an issue as I maybe the 375 Whelen and the 400 Whelen have wider shoulders than the 35 Whelen. (I'm going from memory here, maybe it's just the 400 Whelen with a wider shoulder).
The second reason is what every one who likes AI says: "The stretching is minimized."
The third reason, is when I take out my Mauser 375 Whelen AI no one else in camp will have one. grin

On the other hand I have a 280 AI that I put together on a 700 action and there was no need for modification as it fed 280 and 280 AI fine. (If I had to do it over again it would be a straight 280.)

The same things on my 22-250 AI built on a 700 action, except the 22-250 AI does show enhanced performance and I think it is worth it. Basically a 220 Swift performance in a case that doesn't stretch much. I shoot maybe 200 rounds a year in my 22-250 AI.

If I were to build a 338-06, I'd go with the A-Square version.

I think MD wrote once that controlled feed actions might require more modification than push feed and that's my experience.


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
[quote=jwp475][quote=efw]K

Some rounds benefit from AI, some not so much.

30-06 is oft said to not be worth the trouble, think I'd include 338-06 in that group.

I'd like to hear from those who think otherwise.

DF


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Joined: Apr 2006
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,116
Originally Posted by longbarrel
An article in Handloader some decades ago tested the .30-06 std vs. AI and iirc concluded that there was minimal difference in velocity if pressures were the same (using measurement of the pressure ring on the brass to .0001").


Looking at the Nosler manual it shows the 30-06 AI almost 3000 fps for the 180 out of 24" barrel. About 170 fps more than the regular 30-06. With the 200g there isn't much difference. If I didn't have a 300 H&H I might consider the AI.

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