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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,494
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,494 |
would not want to be the one on the other end of my colt AR because I'm going to shoot you in the head. At what distance? Uh 2600yds anything after that, it is in the eye..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
One more thing.
In all the "dust ups" I've been in there are 2 things I never wished for.
1. A smaller gun
2. Less ammo
A buddy of mine picked 5.56 green tip out of a chest rack full of ak mags (the bearer was dead from multiple hits elsewhere). We had whittled them down between 400-500m. In my experience 5.56 is plenty leathal to 300-350m. After that get something bigger. Just my 2 cents.
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
would not want to be the one on the other end of my colt AR because I'm going to shoot you in the head. At what distance? Uh 2600yds anything after that, it is in the eye.. LOL
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
One more thing.
In all the "dust ups" I've been in there are 2 things I never wished for.
1. A smaller gun
2. Less ammo
A buddy of mine picked 5.56 green tip out of a chest rack full of ak mags (the bearer was dead from multiple hits elsewhere). We had whittled them down between 400-500m. In my experience 5.56 is plenty leathal to 300-350m. After that get something bigger. Just my 2 cents. You should change your handle to "DustUp."
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,662 |
If things go south rapidly, we are looking at no logistics, not much back up or support, virtually nothing in the way of medical assistance and no rest. Bravado won’t cut it.
Sam......
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,606
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,606 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once
Beware of any old man in a profession where one usually dies young.
Calm seas don't make sailors.
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once Yep, did that too. Let me know when you want to go to the range princess.
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,377
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,377 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once Yep, did that too. Let me know when you want to go to the range princess. Finally, ,a genuine internet hero. Thank you for your service, can you tell us more? We all will understand if those pesky NDAs and Persec concerns preclude more succinct tales of your adventures. Waiting breathlessly, mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once Yep, did that too. Let me know when you want to go to the range princess. Finally, ,a genuine internet hero. Thank you for your service, can you tell us more? We all will understand if those pesky NDAs and Persec concerns preclude more succinct tales of your adventures. Waiting breathlessly, mike r Pay attention Colorado, that's how it's done!
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once Yep, did that too. Let me know when you want to go to the range princess. Finally, ,a genuine internet hero. Thank you for your service, can you tell us more? We all will understand if those pesky NDAs and Persec concerns preclude more succinct tales of your adventures. Waiting breathlessly, mike r Pay attention Colorado, that's how it's done!
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,377
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,377 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once Yep, did that too. Let me know when you want to go to the range princess. Finally, ,a genuine internet hero. Thank you for your service, can you tell us more? We all will understand if those pesky NDAs and Persec concerns preclude more succinct tales of your adventures. Waiting breathlessly, mike r Pay attention Colorado, that's how it's done! Who, pray tell is Colorado and how is what done? Don't be a tease we are all eagerly awaiting your mind biscuits. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
Thought this was a forum where people came to share and learn from other's experiences.
And give each other [bleep].
I have my experiences and I'm sure you do as well. If you don't like what I have say, ignore it.
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,034
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,034 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Funny, I was always interested in stopping the fight while placing the heaviest burden on my enemy. Wounded are a bigger burden for one’s enemy than dead compatriots. Their screams are more distracting to your foe than yourself. The last thing that changes direction as your enemy seeks to evade fire is their bellybutton.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,492
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,492 |
So who are you going to be fighting? Probably not a trained army. Probably some BLM or Antifa jerks. They're gonna be scared if someone puts rounds on them. Under these circumstances, a fortification might work fine. I don't think they're gonna do fire and maneuver. In fact, when they hear the crack (sonic boom) of rounds going over their head or close, they'll probably remember they had an appointment on the other side of town.
As for where to shoot, won't a 30-06 penetrate a bullet proof vest? 30-06 152 grain ball ammo will penetrate 1/4 inch of steel. So shoot center of mass.
As for accuracy, I think 3 MOA is enough to hit humans at ranges up to 500 yards. Doubt if they'll be that far.
Almost any rifle made will shoot better than 3 MOA. So I would not worry about rifle accuracy, just effectiveness.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,770 |
Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.
Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.
In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.
You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.
I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.
Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.
So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.
If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.
After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.
Mostly this. Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots. Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out. Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask. My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good! Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange. As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter. Funny, I was always interested in stopping the fight while placing the heaviest burden on my enemy. Wounded are a bigger burden for one’s enemy than dead compatriots. Their screams are more distracting to your foe than yourself. The last thing that changes direction as your enemy seeks to evade fire is their bellybutton. Can't argue with that. Most of my experience was with bearded sand vermin, not an honourable foe. Life is far less meaningful to them and they certainly didn't try very hard to help their own. Also, much of that was "dynamic", meaning move to and past. Never wanted a wiggling enemy behind me. You bring up a good point worth consideration in other circumstances.
Bore size is no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance. 458WIN
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580 |
Alls I knows is that unless you have one helluva land setup, good comms, and enough people to post 24/7 watch on all approaches, if you're shooting, you're doing it wrong.
SHTF here is probably gonna look more like Argentina did than The Walking Dead episodes where they're fighting Negan's guys......
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,034
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,034 |
Depends a bit on the nature of the vest. There have been advancements over the years but I doubt a soft vest will stop a .30-06. If perchance I’m wrong know the recipient will have multiple broken ribs at POI. Armor plate will stop .30 cal AP projectiles. Still might have some cracked ribs, and likely some lacerations on face and arms from spall.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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