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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Dirtfarmer] #15681752 01/20/21
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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by HunterJim
Norma's V2 Reloading Manual has a burn rate chart that shows Reloader 22 at Relative Velocity 90.2 and Relative Pressure 81.1 and MRP at 89.9 and 80.1 respectively. Chart is from Eurenco/Bofors...

You'll see that much variation, lot to lot, same powder.

DF


Exactly. In fact more than one powder company has told me they try to keep lot-to-lot variations within 2-3%--which is why many loading manuals show differences between powders that have always been the "same," such as the newly manufactured batches of W296 and H110.

Vihtavuori claims they keep lot variation within 1%, and in my experience they do.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Mule Deer] #15681931 01/20/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by HunterJim
Norma's V2 Reloading Manual has a burn rate chart that shows Reloader 22 at Relative Velocity 90.2 and Relative Pressure 81.1 and MRP at 89.9 and 80.1 respectively. Chart is from Eurenco/Bofors...

You'll see that much variation, lot to lot, same powder.

DF


Exactly. In fact more than one powder company has told me they try to keep lot-to-lot variations within 2-3%--which is why many loading manuals show differences between powders that have always been the "same," such as the newly manufactured batches of W296 and H110.

Vihtavuori claims they keep lot variation within 1%, and in my experience they do.

And, you pay for that Vv quality.

These days, buy powder when becomes available; ya better be quick.

DF

Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15682158 01/20/21
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From: Keith Anderson [mailto:Keithramshot.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:30 AM
To: Gonzalez, Speedy
Subject: RE: L-32



Speedy,

The LT-32 is an exact copy of the original T-32 manufactured in the same plant and on the same machinery as the original. Lou Murdica has been extensively testing it and he tells us it is the easiest powder to tune that he has seen in 40 years. According to Lou, the chamber that everybody was using in the 80's will work with this powder. The bullets do not need to be seated way out in order to get more powder in the case. In testing the powder in our Bond Universal receiver against the origin "T' powder, my S.D.'s were about 30% lower with the new powder versus the "T" powder. Lou and Don Nielson donated 16 pounds of the original T-32 lot of powder for our quality control and that is what the new powder is shot against. All of our powders are allowed to deviate +3% to -5% in pressure from the quality control lot except LT-32 which we cut the deviation percentages in half in order to have the best lot to lot consistency in the industry for this powder. Another advantage of LT-32 is the fact that our Accurate 2015 can be blended with this powder if anyone wants to adjust the burn rate. 2015 is also manufactured on the machinery, has the same geometry but is about 10% slower that LT-32.

Just a note on Hodgdon's 8208. The 8208 that is being brought into the country is not being brought in for the benchrest market as most people believe. It is being brought into the country for military contracts and it just so happened that it worked in the PPC. It is being QC'd for those military contracts not for benchrest shooters. There is more money in the military side of selling powder. I work directly with the company using it for military applications. LT-32 is just the opposite. We developed this powder specifically for the 6mm PPC and it is QC'd in the 6mm PPC.

I can send you a sample if you would like.


Best regards,
Keith Anderson
Western Powders Ballistic Lab



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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Swifty52] #15682936 01/20/21
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Originally Posted by Swifty52
From: Keith Anderson [mailto:Keithramshot.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:30 AM
To: Gonzalez, Speedy
Subject: RE: L-32



Speedy,

The LT-32 is an exact copy of the original T-32 manufactured in the same plant and on the same machinery as the original. Lou Murdica has been extensively testing it and he tells us it is the easiest powder to tune that he has seen in 40 years. According to Lou, the chamber that everybody was using in the 80's will work with this powder. The bullets do not need to be seated way out in order to get more powder in the case. In testing the powder in our Bond Universal receiver against the origin "T' powder, my S.D.'s were about 30% lower with the new powder versus the "T" powder. Lou and Don Nielson donated 16 pounds of the original T-32 lot of powder for our quality control and that is what the new powder is shot against. All of our powders are allowed to deviate +3% to -5% in pressure from the quality control lot except LT-32 which we cut the deviation percentages in half in order to have the best lot to lot consistency in the industry for this powder. Another advantage of LT-32 is the fact that our Accurate 2015 can be blended with this powder if anyone wants to adjust the burn rate. 2015 is also manufactured on the machinery, has the same geometry but is about 10% slower that LT-32.

Just a note on Hodgdon's 8208. The 8208 that is being brought into the country is not being brought in for the benchrest market as most people believe. It is being brought into the country for military contracts and it just so happened that it worked in the PPC. It is being QC'd for those military contracts not for benchrest shooters. There is more money in the military side of selling powder. I work directly with the company using it for military applications. LT-32 is just the opposite. We developed this powder specifically for the 6mm PPC and it is QC'd in the 6mm PPC.

I can send you a sample if you would like.


Best regards,
Keith Anderson
Western Powders Ballistic Lab


I agree with the first paragraph, I have shot with Lou quite a few times at Benchrest match's in several states, at one particular match I was having a dreadful day and Lou borrowed me his Neil Jones powder measure filled with this LT-32 powder when it was still in the developmental stage. and even told me how much to load. Lou is a great guy and loves to tinker with everything to make the sport better.

As for the second paragraph it is not entirely true as I understand it. Lou Murdica was working with IMR trying to recreate the original 8208 that Benchresters love hence the name IMR8208XBR, I had an 8 pounder of the original lot and it shot fantastic in my 6ppc and I know many others that had the same opinion.
It was about that time that IMR told Lou to go F himself that they were changing the formula for the military contract they had just landed. It only took about 15min shooting the new lot to realize it was unfit for benchrest any longer. It was at this point that Lou started working with Western Powders.

Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Elvis] #15683751 01/20/21
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Originally Posted by Elvis


Why wouldn't the two powders exhibit the exact same tolerances if exactly the same powder?


When Norma makes MRP at the end of the day they sweep the floors and then send that to Alliant.

What I have heard and read, and again this differs from MD's experience, is that MRP is canister grade with 10% maximum variation, +/- 5% and that R22 is bulk grade with up to 20% variation, +/- 10%. This fits in with my own experience as I had one of the hot lots of R22 which I think was subject to a recall but I liked the extra velocity so I kept it. Good thing I didn't "splode" anything. This was when I was a hot rod teenager. Also when I compared the two years ago the MRP was darker, it could have been due to being fresher with more solvents as what I have on hand now is basically the same color but the MRP is more uniform.

Last edited by DBoston; 01/20/21.
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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: DBoston] #15683843 01/20/21
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Would love to know where you heard/read that RL-22 is allowed to vary +/- 10%.

Might also want to comment, concerning some previous posts from other folks, that variation in powder lots can be defined two ways, by pressure or velocity. Generally velocity varies somewhere around half a much as pressure with single-based powders, somewhat more with double-based.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15684001 01/20/21
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It's been a very long time since I've had any MRP. I have not seen it for sale in my usual haunts and I guess I have not looked for it in many years. To be honest, I thought it had been discontinued a long time ago. But I have a few pounds of RL 22. It is one of the most accurate powders (H1000 too) in my 300 WM.

The bottom line for me is that I've not noticed any variance of burning rates for RL 22 in my 300 WM.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15684251 01/20/21
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The 20% variation is I believe industry/military standard for bulk powders which are shipped by the train load. The reality is that even for bulk powders manufacturers try to hold it to a reduced variation. When whoever orders the powder receives it it is standard practice to blend lots back to a more uniform standard. But you already know all this. You took it literally as R22 has a 20% lot to lot variation, what I meant is it starts off that way. When it leaves the Alliant factory it is blended and more uniform.

When it leaves the factory it can vary up to 20% but by the time it is blended and repackaged most of that variation is reduced. But I will hold to my statement that MRP is held to higher standards to begin with. I have seen lot to lot variations first hand with R22 and though I have used less MRP it has all been very uniform.

This may be intermojet lore but look at each and the grain size almost always varies more with R22 even if the color is the same. Maybe I should say same powder different standards. I think the different retardant idea came from 6mm Br.com a usually fairly reliable source. This makes me want to call Ranshot (the current NORMA distributer) again to see if I get the same answer, chances are I won't.

Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: DBoston] #15685204 01/21/21
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Bulk grade is NOT labeled Reloder 22.

Apparently you missed my post where I talked to the head of Norma, and he admitted it was indeed the same powder a RL-22, but more consistent.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Mule Deer] #15685254 01/21/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Bulk grade is NOT labeled Reloder 22.

Apparently you missed my post where I talked to the head of Norma, and he admitted it was indeed the same powder a RL-22, but more consistent.


MD, does that sound to you maybe like self-serving coming from the head of Norma. "my powder is better than the other guys"

But I'll keep an eye out for MRP. There's gun shows coming up and maybe I'll find some.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Bugger] #15685274 01/21/21
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I have used plenty of MRP over the years and have found it to be more consistent than Reloder 22.


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John Steinbeck
Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15685309 01/21/21
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I would bet that the difference between the two, in terms of pressure/speed, would be about the same as the difference between loads made when a container of either is first opened and loads made when it has sat, after opening, on a shelf for a few years.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Mule Deer] #15685362 01/21/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I have used plenty of MRP over the years and have found it to be more consistent than Reloder 22.


Thanks for that answer. That means a lot more to me than the head of Norma saying it.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: Mule Deer] #15685365 01/21/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I have used plenty of MRP over the years and have found it to be more consistent than Reloder 22.


Well, JB, we've had this discussion before but I won't go there today.

But let's just review a few things said in this thread:

Norma guys says they are the same
Powder kernels color are not the same; some say yes, some say not. I say no & I have lots form both over various time periods
Norma & your experience say MRP is more consistent


So are they they same???????????

I say no from the appearance standpoint alone.MPR clearly meters better/easier for me through a Redding powder feeder.

I say yes from the performance standpoint & (my) load data.

Can't comment on the variability as I haven't checked it close enough to say.

But if there is real data from Norma, or anyone else claiming/showing measurably less variance with MRP, then to me, that is pretty conclusive that they are not (exactly) the same powders & that there is something different in them.

Does it matter? I don't think so, & I have enough of both for a long time.

MM

Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: MontanaMan] #15685392 01/21/21
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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I have used plenty of MRP over the years and have found it to be more consistent than Reloder 22.


Well, JB, we've had this discussion before but I won't go there today.

But let's just review a few things said in this thread:

Norma guys says they are the same
Powder kernels color are not the same; some say yes, some say not. I say no & I have lots form both over various time periods
Norma & your experience say MRP is more consistent


So are they they same???????????

I say no from the appearance standpoint alone.MPR clearly meters better/easier for me through a Redding powder feeder.

I say yes from the performance standpoint & (my) load data.

Can't comment on the variability as I haven't checked it close enough to say.

But if there is real data from Norma, or anyone else claiming/showing measurably less variance with MRP, then to me, that is pretty conclusive that they are not (exactly) the same powders & that there is something different in them.

Does it matter? I don't think so, & I have enough of both for a long time.

MM


Same formulation, same coatings, same environmental protocols for production, different QC standards. So what Norma would reject as outside of their specs, Alliant would accept, as their specs are broader.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15685395 01/21/21
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Years ago, I started using the old Weatherby Guide's load data that included a "factory equivalent load". All calibers listed used either H-4831 (I assume the old canister type) and MRP. When i discovered MRP and RL-22 were the "same", I proceeded to test all my Weatherby calibers, 340, 300, 7mm, 257 and 240 with both powders. loads, etc. There was NO difference outside what one expects regarding extreme spread, std deviation, etc. I have however, since switched to N-165 in the 340 (VV powders btw, are the CLEANEST BURNING I've ever experienced and also RL-23 in my 300 (same load) with same results.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15685405 01/21/21
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As to color, I have different colors of H4350.


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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15685421 01/21/21
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i really liked Reloader 22 but as has been posted i did get some odd nasty pressures so i switch to what the Berger reloading book had for the best powder for 257 Weather mag. performance Reloader 25 and my groups were even better now with good velocities too and much more consistent pressures too.

Last edited by pete53; 01/21/21.

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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: NWT] #15685936 01/21/21
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MidwayUSA says the MRP is discontinued. Norma site says it is back and better than ever.

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Re: MD Are MRP and RL22 Exactly the Same? [Re: MontanaMan] #15686107 01/21/21
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MontanaMan,

Appearance of powders means less than it used to. As 5sdad mentioned, he's had different colors of H4350. I've had different batches of Varget with different colors. Also, my last batch of IMR 4350 (a couple pounds purchased a couple years ago in a local store) has SHORT-CUT granules, instead the "logs" many of us are used to--yet it results in the same basic velocities when used in my long-time IMR 4350 loads for various rifles. In my experience the granules of quite a few specific powder brands vary somewhat in color and size anymore from lot to lot, not just those examples.

I also just compared the granules from my present batches of Norma MRP and Reloder 22--which are different than those mentioned in my earlier comparison. That occurred around 5-6 years ago, and if I recall correctly those batches I were acquired at about the same time. The granules were indeed identical (I compared them with a magnifying glass),, as well as the velocity produced with the same bullet, case and primer in the same rifles. In fact, at the end of that test I was running short on both powders, so I dumped 'em both into the same canister (instead keeping two containers with a little powder in each) and made a note to get some more. At the time the MRP still came in a steel can.

I just checked the replacement batches of MRP and RL-22t. As I recall, I picked up the -22 on one of my next trips to a local store, as they generally had it in stock. But there wasn't any MRP in any local store, and it was a while before I could replaced it--with newer stuff in the plastic canisters they use now. I've been using both since for various handloading projects, and they still result in similar velocities in the same applications. I compared the granules and the MRP's are slightly thinner and paler, though both are about the same length. Were they produced at the same time? Dunno, but I would guess not.

Am still guessing MRP and 22 are the same powder, due both to my results and published data. A good example is comparing Norma's data for the .270 Winchester for MRP and 130- and 150-grain Nosler Partitions, with Nosler's data using RL-22. (Alliant's on-line data doesn't list RL-22 with 130 Partitions in the .270.) The maximum powder charges are both within .2 grains, and the velocities are very similar too, certainly within lot-to-lot variations and differences in test barrels.


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