Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors OT, a different girl caught my eye

That which drove me to slow down acquiring other things of late. Fulfillment of a 50 year old dream. An 1885 Winchester High Wall, barreled by the old master, Harry M. Pope. .32-40 with a pristine bore, which is about as nice as when Harry created it in 1896. Good provenance (I'm the 6th owner), not faked, but it was refinished. (Which is why I got it for about 1/2 of what it would have cost otherwise.) Original Popes from his Hartford years often fetch enough to buy a two year old F-150, which is to say this is the only way I could ever afford one without selling a bunch of nice guns.

It's a heavy beast - just shy of 14 pounds.


#5 weight 30" octagon barrel, Pope tang sight, false muzzle (but no short starter, I'll have to make one), and no ramrod. Why you may ask would I need muzzle loading gear if it's a .32-40 breech loader? Because the gun was designed as a muzzle-breech loader- bullet inserted into the muzzle and pushed down the bore into the throat, charged case inserted behind it, the whole process intended to attain the maximum accuracy possible. The gun can also be loaded via breech seating the bullet ahead of a charged case, or by simply using fixed ammunition. Accuracy with fixed ammunition was typically about 2/3 as good as what could be done by muzzle loading or breech seating. Pope's rifles set 200 yard records that stood for many decades.

There is written record, in his handwriting, describing his use of this very rifle in a Hartford rifle match, July 1, 1896. It is the 53rd rifle Pope built. (He only managed 237 out of 250 points, at 200 yards offhand, on the German Ring Target which consisted of a 6" bullseye with a 1" center ring that scored 25 points. He wrote that he had forgotten to bring the rod needed to adjust the elevation wheels on the sight, so all of his shots hit a bit low.)



I'm over the top. I felt like the kid in A Christmas Story unwrapping his BB gun when I opened the big brown box.

Geez Gary the score of a lifetime congrats. Don't just look at it , Pope built them to shoot. When your done cleaning it give it a.lick and wipe with the oily rag and celebrate but with the good stuff
MB

Congratulations, great history on that rifle. Looking forward to seeing some target groups fired with both methods of loading. Can you top Fireballs Savagefest three shot group?

Cheers,
Nick1899

Don't shoot your eye out.

As long as you’re Happy Gary!

Pretty special piece. Congrats!

Anyone would be proud to own that one!

Shooting sticks or bench gun?

You have the rifle, AND Harry Pope's hand-written loads notes!!! That really does deserve a "HOLY SMOKES!"

I can't believe you didn't drive/fly out to get it yourself!!

Good for you. It looks brand new. It can't have been used much since it was refinished.

Who's this Harry Pope guy again?


Congrats!

Bet there are not words to really describe how you feel. Congratulations, Gary!

Congrats!

Congrads old buddy, what a Cool find! Enjoy it!

"Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man"

Gary !!! glad you finally got it :DBet you cant wait to get her on paper !!!!

Beautiful gun, as the 6th owner you have proven we are only caretakers and that rifle had some of the best. I'm very happy for you.

Mike

What a treasure, very pleased for you Gary!

Gary, very very happy for you! I know you've been thinking on such things for a while. Outstanding find. How in the world did you find it?

32-40 was a really accurate caliber loved by competitive shooters in that day. I am officially jealous.

Beautiful!

That's a great find.

Really looking forward to seeing this tomorrow Gary!

Gary, congratulations on finally finding a Pope barreled rifle, and in 32-40, which was said to be one of Harry Pope's favorite chamberings. I read that the old target men thought that the rifling could leave distortions on the rear of the bullet that reduced accuracy if loaded from the breech, with a false muzzle the rifling was put in gradually and left the rear of the bullet evenly formed. Pope's rifling also is supposed to be made so the amount of metal displaced by the lands is almost exactly what is need to fill the grooves to minimized distorting the bullets lengthwise.

Saw this on the single shot forum first, beautiful rifle. Definitely the gem in any collection. We need more pictures, well I do anyway.😁

Planning on a day trip to WV Tuesday. I heard the weather might go south on us though. I'm leaving my house about 730, getting my oil changed in Leesburg at 9, then heading up. Dump some stuff off, then heading back. Passenger seat has a butt warmer.

I already asked him that question, and he hasn't responded yet, hope it's just tears of joy?

Weather is showing sunshine in WV Tuesday.

Very cool, Gary! Enjoy it buddy. Hope you drag it along to The Rendezvous this year.

Gary, we both hit a home run yesterday.

Thanks, Gene. Avoidance of the tiny burrs pulled onto the base of the bullet by the lands was indeed one of the reasons for muzzle loading in this instance. One must strive for perfection on a bullet's base as it is the steering end of the bullet, but one can get overly anal about such things too.

Pope's theories were proven by and large by the extensive experimentation conducted by Dr. Franklin Mann which resulted in the 1909 publishing of "The Bullets Flight". How many times the wheel has been re-invented over the last 110 years by people who ignored that seminal work!

The other, and possibly more important, reason was to wipe the fouling from the previous shot from the bore by the act of pushing a tightly fitting bullet through from the muzzle. Remember black powder was the universal propellant back then, and accuracy suffered to one degree or another if said fouling wasn't kept clean from the bore, usually after each shot by the serious target men. Muzzle loading precluded having to do that.

Modern testing has long proved that with smokeless powder and good bullet lubes one may achieve nigh equal accuracy by breech seating instead of muzzle loading. Few contenders muzzle load these days, except for nostalgic reasons. But the edge still remains with the ML'ers - it's just not as pronounced as it was 120 years ago.

Pope offered a guarantee with his barrels: 3 1/2" for ten shots if using fixed ammunition, 3" if breech seating, and 2 1/2" if muzzle loading - at 200 yards. Mind you that was with soft plain base lead bullets and black powder. That guarantee was kind of scoffed at by owners of his barrels because waaaaay better accuracy than that was often achieved. While Pope was generally an egoist, he was smart enough to make guarantees that could easily be met.

Gary, I have something you really need if your going to muzzle load and use the same cartridge case over and over as they did !!!!!! Copy of a stevens-pope decapper,recapper for 32-40,38-55 !!!!!!!! One of my trinkets from the scrapyard a few weeks ago !!!!

Nice looking Gary, great rifle, they are tack drivers. The guy I bought my 99G 250 from was into rifles like yer new one. Hefted several of them and looked em over, nice shootin irons!!!

nice grab Gary

That is a sweet rifle, I'd like to shoot something like it sometime. Sounds like if I ever want to, I should hit the arm weights

Yep, I have that same tool. Works very slickly. Mine was made by the late Jerry Simmons. I could also use my 110 year old Frankford Arsenal tool for de-recapping in the process of creating gallery practice ammo by Army and National Guard troops.



Let me know if you stumble onto a bullet lube pump and a mechanical breech-seater! Last two tools I need to acquire, and would prefer to buy them than make them if I can help it.

Beautiful Rifle........Class pure class.......
Congratulations!

Away from the Fire for a few days and the best OT thread I've ever seen almost passed me by. Score of a life time. You must be pinching yourself hourly to make sure you're not dreaming. Can't wait for a range report on how she shoots. Congratulations my friend.

Brother Frank lives in Italy.

Piggy backing the OP, this rifle sold at auction over the weekend.
The maker's story is an interesting read. Different day and time...
John Meunier

Wow Gary, that's about the pinnacle of collecting isn't it? Congratulations. Be Well, RZ.

Thanks, Rick. Interesting read and great photos in the article. How much did that Meunier rifle fetch at auction?

Some of the best reading in the old Gun Digests were the semi frictional stories about Pope. Forgot the author's name. Gary, I believe you acquired one of the ultimate desirable rifles. Congrats!

Are you referring to the J.M.Pyne stories by Lucian Cary? If memory serves, I think all those stories originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post during the 30's-40's. I have the entire collection of those stories, in a book edited by Guy Lautard. Great stories. I've read and re-read all of them many times. That book is out there on the used market but getting kind of pricey.

Yes, those are the stories, thanks! Probably some of the best gun writing and content ever done. Can't wait to read your test fire report.

Still pretty sexy for a 125-year old girl!