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Sir Bob,

Your penetration testing underscores the excellence of the 400-gr/.458 FN solid.
I was not worried about it a bit, however. I am convinced.
Will look forward to your results with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at your blog.
I have tried them and my favorite load is a bit unusual: AA-5744 for a non-reduced load.

With a COL of 3.340" (SAAMI compliant, ha ha), Hornady brass, F215 primer,
in a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, at 67*F:

65.0 grains of AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps corrected to MV.
3 shots in one hole at 50 yards.

For my top velocity with no signs of excessive pressure, same details for rifle and loading as above except different powder:

82.0 grains of H4198 >>> 3075 fps corrected to MV.
3 shots also made one hole at 50 yards
but the cloverleaf was almost twice as large.

BTW, 65.0 grains was the starting load with AA-5744 and was most accurate.
69.0 grains (my max tried) gave 3003 fps MV.

Starting load with H4198 was 78.0 grains and gave 2913 fps MV.
82.0 grains was the maximum tried with H4198.

AA-5744 averaged near 70 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase.
H4198 averaged about 40 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase.
250 grains is mighty light but the monometal construction makes it good,
even at as low as 2000 fps MV according to bulkie_roll, his powder charge not mentioned, yet.
3075 fps MV is down to 2057 fps at 200 yards.
2725 fps MV is down to 1998 fps at 150 yards, 1785 fps at 200 yards.
Might as well use the slower load that gives up barely over 50 yards range.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Of course, a Lee Factory Crimp Die works without the third cannelure, for any COL you want.







Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Originally Posted by bulkie_roll


I use them on Northeast whitetail in my 458 WM ... I load them to ~ 2,000 fps out of my 22" M70 .

Devastating .


bulkie_roll, slayer of deer with a .458 Winchester Magnum:

Choose your Sir Name as Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood.
Please.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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Now, just for fun ("Old Fugly" is short for "Old Fun Ugly"):

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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This is a hoot:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Same bit of steel could be used inside the likes of Old Fugly's magazine well
to replace a cut off front wall of mag box.
IIRC, a steel insert was used by Sir Joe to reduce the CZ 550 Magnum internal box length from
about 3.8" to 3.7".


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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Originally Posted by bulkie_roll
Originally Posted by CZ550
Also of possible interest: I recently was able to purchase a box of Hornady 250gr Monoflex in .458 cal. They are made specifically for the 1895 Marlins in .450 and .45-70. Hornady recommends MVs between 1400 to 2500 fps. But those are MVs expected from the Marlin rifles. Anyway, I've loaded a bunch for my #1 Ruger in .458 WM to simulate (if possible) a Marlin in .45-70.



Bob
www.bigbores.ca


I use them on Northeast whitetail in my 458 WM ... I load them to ~ 2,000 fps out of my 22" M70 .

Devastating .

What is your load for ~2000 fps, if I may ask? Thanks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus

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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Bob,

Your penetration testing underscores the excellence of the 400-gr/.458 FN solid.
I was not worried about it a bit, however. I am convinced.
Will look forward to your results with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at your blog.
I have tried them and my favorite load is a bit unusual: AA-5744 for a non-reduced load.

With a COL of 3.340" (SAAMI compliant, ha ha), Hornady brass, F215 primer,
in a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, at 67*F:

65.0 grains of AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps corrected to MV.
3 shots in one hole at 50 yards.

For my top velocity with no signs of excessive pressure, same details for rifle and loading as above except different powder:

82.0 grains of H4198 >>> 3075 fps corrected to MV.
3 shots also made one hole at 50 yards
but the cloverleaf was almost twice as large.

BTW, 65.0 grains was the starting load with AA-5744 and was most accurate.
69.0 grains (my max tried) gave 3003 fps MV.

Starting load with H4198 was 78.0 grains and gave 2913 fps MV.
82.0 grains was the maximum tried with H4198.

AA-5744 averaged near 70 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase.
H4198 averaged about 40 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase.
250 grains is mighty light but the monometal construction makes it good,
even at as low as 2000 fps MV according to bulkie_roll, his powder charge not mentioned, yet.
3075 fps MV is down to 2057 fps at 200 yards.
2725 fps MV is down to 1998 fps at 150 yards, 1785 fps at 200 yards.
Might as well use the slower load that gives up barely over 50 yards range.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Of course, a Lee Factory Crimp Die works without the third cannelure, for any COL you want.







Sir Ron;

I really do appreciate this, especially since you did it using the Ruger #1!

I've just sat down at my reloading desk, planning a load for the 250 MonoFlex using AA5744! I had calculated that 36 grains should give somewhere near 2000 fps. But having already written the draft for Saturday's blog, I mentioned in it that I was aiming for a top Marlin load of about 2500 fps, but also mentioned that 3000 fps would be possible. For that I figured 81 -82 grains of H4198! That's all I can get into a Hornady case and seat a bullet about 1/4". I've used 82 of H4198 under the 300gr TSX for close to 3000 fps (2980 fps).

But instead of immediately going ahead with my plan for AA5744, I chose to read anything new on this thread, while hoping for an answer to my question re 2000 fps from the 250 MonoFlex. So, I got my answer anyway! I didn't know I could use that much of AA5744 within safe pressures - now I know.

Yesterday, I'd already loaded 9 of the 250 MonoFlex, 3 each as so: 69 grains of H4198 which I estimated at ~2650; 73 grains of H322 for an estimated 2550 fps; and 75 grains of H322 for an estimated ~2625 fps.

NOW! Your load of 65 grs of AA5744 at 2725 fps will go into 3 Hornady cases, WLRM primer and COL of 3.4" ! (The others are 3.3" COL). Will get-er-done immediately! And tomorrow's weather looks favorable, so up early (6 am) for departure at 7:30 am, arrival at range 1 hour later, check in (we now have an electronic digital card to open gate while staying in vehicle and close gate in same manner - that's my check in with a personal identification so they always know who's there. Same procedure on leaving!.) set up Chrony, etc, shooting starts at 9:30 am. I'll use the 50 yard berm as my Ruger #1 is now sighted for the 405gr at 100 yards going 2100 fps. I'll aim at the bottom of the target at 50 to get (hopefully) on paper.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus

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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Now, just for fun ("Old Fugly" is short for "Old Fun Ugly"):

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


But the geometry of the box still requires attention does it not?


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Sir Ron,

It's done! 65 grains of 5744... COL is 3.335". Thank you. Report will be in Saturday's blog.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul" - Jesus

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Originally Posted by CZ550
Sir Ron,

It's done! 65 grains of 5744... COL is 3.335". Thank you. Report will be in Saturday's blog.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
You will not be disappointed.
Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer.
Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV
was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards.
That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.

That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it.
It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Originally Posted by bluefish

But the geometry of the box still requires attention does it not?

We can do a lot of consideration there for sure,
assuming you mean in turning an 8x57mm Mauser M98 box into a .404 Jeffery
or .458 Lott (ugh) box.
W. J. Jeffery obviously attended to theirs.
Heym may be making their mag boxes cartridge specific, even for their .505 Gibbs,
but most "factory rifles" make do with less than perfect "geometry."

The Pre-'64 Winchester M70 in .375 H&H got a 4+1 fit perfected, like a glove.
Like OJ's gloves fit him before they shrank with the drying of the blood soaking them.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Actual cartridge brass is often a couple or a few thou smaller than the max spec,
and the minimum box diameters ought to have 10 or 20 thou clearance for best function.
With all that, the Pre-'64 M70 in .375 H&H (or .395 H&H or .300 H&H) still cuts the mustard.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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What follower for 3.600" COL in a rifle converted from 3.340" COL ?

Some followers that I have known:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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A few more:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That's funny, the follower lengths vary from 0.005" longer (+) than COL to 0.275" shorter (-) than COL.
All my Winchester M70 followers are aluminum alloy except the Pre-'64 and the Wiebe.

But, wait for it, there are a couple more ...


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by CZ550
Sir Ron,

It's done! 65 grains of 5744... COL is 3.335". Thank you. Report will be in Saturday's blog.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
You will not be disappointed.
Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer.
Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV
was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards.
That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.

That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it.
It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.



Mine is zeroed and ready to go with them. I’ll find something to try them on.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by CZ550
Sir Ron,

It's done! 65 grains of 5744... COL is 3.335". Thank you. Report will be in Saturday's blog.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
You will not be disappointed.
Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer.
Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV
was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards.
That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.

That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it.
It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.



Mine is zeroed and ready to go with them. I’ll find something to try them on.


"The Crusade" rolls along, reminds me of that old Blackfoot song, Train, Train...................good work Gentlemen!


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I know I'm late to the discussion but a M70 Classic in 300 win mag becomes 458 3+1 with no real work right? It's the use of a 375 H&H box that requires work but allows loading to a longer COAL thus beating the Lott? Or is the point to create lower operating pressures?


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I was watching that trial like the rest of 4 channels America and shouted at the screen, “you idiot! They won’t fit after drying out for months! Object!” Marcia Clark really messed that one up. On the matter of 458 and mag boxes: I will say it again; Sir Ron is producing better quality content than can be found anywhere. Data and pictures both first quality.

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Originally Posted by gunner500


"The Crusade" rolls along, reminds me of that old Blackfoot song, Train, Train...................good work Gentlemen!


That is a good one, Sir Jerry. Buy a donkey .
Blackfoot's "Train, Train" ... I hear that harmonica leading up to heavy metal and foot stomping.
Doing good is a train train with no end,
with a "Simple Man" riding the rails, feeling like a "Free Bird"
free of the idea that the .458 Lott is in any way preferrable to the .458 WM.
Cue Lynrd Skynrd.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Originally Posted by bluefish
I know I'm late to the discussion but a M70 Classic in 300 win mag becomes 458 3+1 with no real work right?
Un-block the rear of the box, shorten the ejector-bolt-stop, and re-barrel that .300 WinMag to SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber,
and VOILA ! You have a .458 WM+ capable of 3.6" COL.

It's the use of a 375 H&H box that requires work but allows loading to a longer COAL thus beating the Lott?
Yes.
Or is the point to create lower operating pressures?
Yes.

The .458 WM+ Unchained allows you to choose,
either same velocity as the SAAMI .458 Lott but at lower pressure,
or higher velocity than the SAAMI .458 Lott at same pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Or just use the SAAMI .458 WinMag (3.34" and 60,000 psi) and get within 50 fps of the SAAMI .458 Lott (3.6" and 62,500 psi).
Some perfectly safe loads for the .458 WM+ (loads at 3.6" COL or shorter) are unsafe in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Throat, throat ... Train, Train.



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Further geometry studies:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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