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Originally Posted by Starman
[quote=158XTP].. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's,
gun writers, and of course regular joes.


Just because members go along with
how a forum is structured , doesn't mean
they agree.


^^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^ memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Originally Posted by Starman
Just because members go along with
how a forum is structured , doesn't mean
they agree.


I'll requote my above post

"Many of these forums formed subforums from member input. AR ran discussions on their old bulletin board software before rolling out the new software. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's, gun writers, and of course regular joes"

"There is enough firepower at member level to have changed, influenced, or started at least 'one bigbore site' with .400 or .458 minimum you would think, but I cant find one that did."

Originally Posted by Starman

Your orig question was much broader
than what a few forum owners think.


Which is why I said above "in the context of bigbore forums" we have an answer. Dont panic, if 375 is a medium to you, and your favorite writer and gunsmith, that wont change smile

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We don't have the answer to what you originally
asked...its now convenient for you to narrow it
to what a few forum owners think.

Look outside the restrictions of those forums
and you will see gunwriters past and present
as well as gunmakers and PHs refering to .375
as medium .and they have been doing so
for several decades before the net emerged .


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Originally Posted by Starman
We don't have the answer to what you originally
asked..its now convenient for you to narrow it
.


Are you hard of reading Starman? For the third time, I am agreeing I started it broadly and admitting in just one area we have an answer.

Dont panic, nothing was 'narrowed', the discussion is still open. And we dont have the answer, no. This debate never does. smile

Sorry if I keep missing your replies, your editing a lot.

Quote
to what a few forum owners think.


Including the largest which formed from member input. And almost none existing specifying a 400 or 458 min. On the whole internet, in 27 years. (that I can recall or find on searches anyway)

Its probably a worthwhile question next as to why that is.

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I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.

Find me current .375 manufacturers
that classify .375 as big bore in their
literature...and do the same with any
current gunwriters and PHs of repute.


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Originally Posted by Starman
I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.

Find me current .375 manufacturers
that classify .375 as big bore in their
litrature...and do the same with any
current gunwriters and PHs of repute.



Is there any gun manufacture that classifies calibres as Big Bores. Plenty who have Safari, Express etc and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc.

Soooooooooo ....if you tell someone 375 is a medium bore then they will get disappointed when they go to buy 375 because of pricing and a generally lesser range of rifles from a manufacture. If they don't want wood and go to Weatherby then sorry, only the the DGR for the 378. A 338/378 can be had for a whole lot less money.

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Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
..and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc.


I already have shown .338 can be lumped in
with higher price Safari , African or Express
category rifle... Rem even has Safari Grade
.338win rounds.

The new 300H&H Hart.Weiss magnum Mauser
I handled had all the Safari/African/express features
found on their .375 offering and priced the same.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
..and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc.


As I already have shown .338 can be lumped
in with the higher price Safari , African or Express
category rifle...and Rem even has Safari Grade
.338win rounds.

The new 300H&Hart Hmann Weiss magnum Mauser
I handled had all the Safari/African/express featurres
found on their .375 and priced the same .


Well Remington does not count and H&W is not exactly common.

The bottom line is you go looking for a 375 rifles will limited to those in 416 and 45 and same price as 416 and 458. A 375 M70 Safari with their crap No 1 wood costs more than a Super Grade.

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Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire


Well Remington does not count and H&W is not exactly common.



Rem. cashing in on premium priced Safari grade
338 win ammunition does count.

and now you are arguing H&W ain't common
enough to enter the discussion , but the much
lower sales Express rifles from Winchester do
count in the discussion ,.. cherry picking .

Since the topic is 375 , Holland & Holland is
part of the discussion ,

"Bolt action magazine rifle"
£49,000 below .375
£50,000 .375 and above

huge difference of £1000 (2%)
between a .270 and .375

Echols & Co.
Classic $32,000 / .375 and up $32,600-33,000
Legend $15,000 (above or below .375)


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Tell me how many blokes you can find on 24 Hr and AR with H&W rifles and how many with M70 375. Then tell me how many Rem 700s in 375 and up, not many.

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LoL. So you saying most the guys on forums
that go to Africa to shoot a range of DG
hardly can afford a top shelf bolt action ?

Why do you limit the choice and discussion
of DG/express rifles to Winchester and other
more common brands?
What's the acceptable price limit for the
discussion on .375 cal rifles ?


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No, you indicated H&W were more common than the M70.

As to Safari hunters I am not talking about what they can afford but what they use. Saeed uses two beat up rifles he made on Dakota actions and just Leupold scopes and, wait for it, both are 375.

"Why do you limit the choice and discussion
of DG/express rifles to Winchester and other
more common brands?"

Because that is where things happen. So, what when Ruger made those express rifle with the integral quarter rib. Plenty of them on the forum. In fact you will find very few rifles on the forums that cost more than those Ruger Express rifles or Weatherby Accumark. And the Ruger Express, 375, 416 458.

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In a nutshell what the companies like Winchester, Kimber, Ruger and Weatherby know is a 375 will simply command a higher price than a 338 AND because most shooters lump the 375 with the 416 and 45 and that in turn is backed up by Karl's posting of the forum pictures.

You can argue all day long about H&W etc. but in the real everyday world the 375 is on a different ladder to the 338. he 375 is at the bottom of one ladder and the 338 is the top rung of another ladder.

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As a side note I reckon Winchester could bring out a 300 H& matching their 375 including open sights and sell if for the same price. They would make a lot from each rifle.

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Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
No, you indicated H&W were more common than the M70.


Not at all., What I tried to say was you want
to exclude limited production H&W rifles ,
but want to include limited production
Safari express rifles from Winchester.


Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire


As to Safari hunters I am not talking about what they
can afford but what they use. ...

Because that is where things happen.



DG hunting happens with anything from beat up
old pre64s and push-feeds to H&H Royal Doubles.

Someone who can afford a Royal double could
consider a $33k Echols Classic a poor man's
choice...those who can afford $15k Legend
might see M70 Express a poor man's choice.

Or if a person is pressed for dollars try and find
a used Sako Fibreclass or other Sako .375 not
in the Express rifle premium price category.

Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire

You can argue all day long about H&W etc. but in the real everyday world the 375 is on a different ladder to the 338. he 375 is at the bottom of one ladder and the 338 is the top rung of another ladder.


It depends which company you buy your rifles from.
Walk into H&H and other bespoke makers and all
bolt rifles are considered exclusive , Not just .375 up
and in the real everyday world of hunting rifles
not many own higher price African Express rifles
no matter which brand you go.

And the real everyday day world for wealthy folk
is different to non wealthy folk..British Royals are
raised with royal warrant Purdeys and H&H and
live their whole life with such - and it's a perfectly
normal everyday thing to them.


Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
In a nutshell what the
companies like Winchester, Kimber, Ruger and
Weatherby know is a 375 will simply command
a higher price than a 338 ..


Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
As a side note I reckon Winchester could bring out a 300 H&H matching their 375 including open sights and sell if for the same price..


Well that doesnt make sense.

You say companies know .375 will command
higher price than .338 and below ..then claim
said companies could command same price
for .300 as 375.

Reality is a number of companies have been
commanding about same price for .375 and below
for a considerable number of years already.
Whether it's a std. Sako or some bespoke brand.



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Out of curiosity are your posts typed on a mobile phone. The reason I ask is each line is short.

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700 Nitro
600 Nitro
577 Nitro
500 Nitro
505 Gibbs
475 Nitro
450 Nitro
458, etc are all big bores, I wouldn't argue much if 40 calibers were included, but 375 is not a big bore



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Originally Posted by Starman
I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.



Ive cited tens of thousands of sources of safari hunters, PH's of note, outfitters. You can search them yourself, 37,000 posts to sift through on one site alone. Keep in mind some of those guys have shot more african game than US writers have ever seen.(For the record I dont consider only someone 'of note', just because they have written some book for an American to read) Popular vote carries as much weight as anything when it comes to naming conventions.

Also my second question above is unanswered. Why do the major gun forums list .375 as a bigbore? These arent just 'a few regular fellas' plucking a number out of thin air. Some are the most experienced hunters around, also you'd assume they set their forums up to keep the most folks happy, least confusion, most relevance. We are talking tens of thousands of members, including PH's and industry professionals.

Must be a pretty good reason .375 gets the vote most often and .400 and .458 never once in the internets history..

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Originally Posted by jwp475

700 Nitro
600 Nitro
577 Nitro
500 Nitro
505 Gibbs
475 Nitro
450 Nitro
458, etc are all big bores, I wouldn't argue much if 40 calibers were included, but 375 is not a big bore


Dynamite drop in their JWP375, I thought you went missing on the thread .Starman made a comeback for your side of the debate and here you are laugh

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Originally Posted by 158XTP

Ive cited tens of thousands of sources of safari hunters, PH's of note, outfitters. ..


IIRC all you cited was some forum websites.
Who are the individual gunwriters and PHs
and .375 manufacturers that consider .375
a medium?

You should have all that at your fingertips.

You seem like a puppy with a new toy called
the internet and you are trying to overturn
what has been considered an established
medium for generations.






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