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There is a difference for handguns, lever actions etc but where do you fellas feel big bore starts for high powered rifles? My personal feelings are 375H&H, though not a 40cal+, it appears as a 'bigbore recommendation' on about any thread, its minimum legal in some African countries, so it gets enough points to get across the line
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From a commercial point of view it is 375 and that is where the market sees things.
Look at the price of a M70 in 375 compared to 338 and down.
With the exception of the 378, 416 and 460 all the Wby calibres are available in the cheapest Synthetic Mark V but the 378, 416 and 460 have the Mark V Deluxe as the entry point.
The M70 338 is the same rifle as the 7mm Remington and 300 Winchester and then M70 jumps to 375 and 458.
Then as was mentioned the 375 is the minimum calibre for dangerous game in Africa.
In expensive custom wood/blue guns is at 375 where things like the quarter rib appear.
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It's a matter of perspective. To the Criedmore crowd big bore probably starts at 27 caliber. To most of the American shooting fraternity 375 seems to be the cut off. In Britain my understanding is they don't consider it big bore until it is .45 or larger. To Wolfe Publishing it's 8mm or bigger if you go by their Big Bore reloading book.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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I agree with both mart’s & MikeMcGuire’s logic. I think most of the world feels the 375’s are big bores. There was an interesting local ad to sell a 375 H&H, it was noted in the ad this was an “elephant gun”. The Big Bore boys probably consider it a medium - medium bore. I am Not a real Big Bore boy. But, after shooting the 375’s & 416’s for awhile, I personally consider the 375 a medium - medium and the 416 / 404 as large-medium. I do think they are Big on performance. The 458 is where I consider the Big Bores to begin. I definitely consider the 8mm’s and 338’s medium bores. And the 8mm as the start of them. All the above’s only worth is conservation. Hell, some consider a .30 caliber as a big bore. And for their uses probably correctly labeled. It's a matter of perspective. To the Criedmore crowd big bore probably starts at 27 caliber. To most of the American shooting fraternity 375 seems to be the cut off. In Britain my understanding is they don't consider it big bore until it is .45 or larger. To Wolfe Publishing it's 8mm or bigger if you go by their Big Bore reloading book. From a commercial point of view it is 375 and that is where the market sees things.
Look at the price of a M70 in 375 compared to 338 and down.
With the exception of the 378, 416 and 460 all the Wby calibres are available in the cheapest Synthetic Mark V but the 378, 416 and 460 have the Mark V Deluxe as the entry point.
The M70 338 is the same rifle as the 7mm Remington and 300 Winchester and then M70 jumps to 375 and 458.
Then as was mentioned the 375 is the minimum calibre for dangerous game in Africa.
In expensive custom wood/blue guns is at 375 where things like the quarter rib appear.
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From what I've read - many hunters consider the big bores starting at 40 caliber. But I'd like to see someone shoot the 378 Weatherby off the bench all day and at the end of the day claim it isn't a big bore.
There certainly are opinions. In the book "Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges" the list of cartridges includes: 8mm to .600 Nitro.
In the book by Terry Wieland, "Dangerous-Game Rifles", Terry includes 405, 444, and 40-65 as big bore lever rifles. He also includes the 375 H&H in this book.
I think that besides the diameter of the bullet there are other things to consider. Would you consider a 40 S&W camp gun to be a big bore but the aforementioned 378 as a medium bore?
I have a few 458 caliber rifles and one 416. Is my 416 Rigby a medium bore and my 45-70 a big bore? How about the 45 Colt?
I know when I was young, I thought the 30-06 as being one of the "Big Bores". It was the largest cartridge I knew of.
As far as the 375 H&H being a big bore - answer me this, "What land animal is the 375 H&H deemed not capable?"
Last edited by Bugger; 01/25/21.
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It is subjective - it's a mixture of bore size and energy level with no hard and fast guidelines.
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Nope.....just for myself, personally I see 40+ as big bores! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
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I see 300 grains and 375 cal as well as 400 grains and 410/416 cal as heavy medium bores, true Big Bores to me start at 458 cal and 500 grains.
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Big bore starts at 40 cal, always has been the minimum big bore calibre. 375 is still a medium bore, which is the smallest window of all the designations.
Personally, even the 416’s are small to be really called a big bore.
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Big bore starts at .458" and goes up from there.
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Nope.....just for myself, personally I see 40+ as big bores! memtb
My thought's as well! You can do a lot with 40 and up,,,,,
I tend to use more than enough gun
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Although, I’ve mentioned earlier, that everyone has an opinion even writers. I consider the 375 H&H a great and capable cartridge, but I think it’s a “Medium Bore”. But it’s on the border of big bore.
But the “Conundrum” is, if 40+ is big bore, what is the 40 S&W camp gun? If 45 is the start of the big bore, what is the Rossi ‘92 in 45 Colt?
A 40+ diameter bore and 3,000+ Ft-lb muzzle energy is a definition that suites me. Or maybe just muzzle energy should be considered??? I’ve never owned a 378 Weatherby, but is this cartridge not in a “Big Bore” category?
Back in the day, of black powder, the puny 45 was in no way considered a “big bore”. In those days maybe something that was so many balls to the pound was the start of the “Big Bore” designation. A 45 caliber muzzle loader would not be considered something a hunter might choose to shoot a Cape Buffalo. It might not even made the “medium bore” category.
As bullets and powder have improved the designation of “Big Bore” has also moved.
In the end, the category of “Big Bore” is defined by the shooter.
Last edited by Bugger; 01/30/21.
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It is "big bore" not "big energy" bore refers to bore diameter only
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Bugger, my '86 50-110 WCF falls on both sides of your post, with 700 grans at 1250 fps with blackpowder, it is a heavy big bore bullet at low velocity with low muzzle energy, that still penetrates to next week, with RL-15 smokeless powder and 525gr Cast Performance or Beartooth bullets at 2150 fps it is indeed in the company of all the big bores used to hunt all the dangerous animals of the world, bet I could load it with the 570gr Barnes flat nose banded solids with a good hard pinch from a Lee FCD for 2100 fps, that would do in any Ele, Hippo or Buffalo that ever lived.
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Well Gunner, I'd certainly consider your 50-110 as a big bore, even though it doesn't make that first definition.
JWP475, I won't consider the Marlin camp special 40 S&W as a big bore.
Maybe we should go back to where the 12 bore is where big bore starts?
The term is so elusive that it is hard to make a definite line in the sand.
Perhaps Taylor's knock out formula?
I don't think you'll get everyone to agree on the lower limit of "Big Bore".. Be my guess if there were 10 people in a room there would be 10 opinions of what exactly constitutes a "big bore"'
Last edited by Bugger; 01/30/21.
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I think the .40 S&W would be a "medium" bore. With big bore handguns starting at .452" and up.
Just my .02 cents worth.
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While I’ve hunted a good bit with a 375 and various 416s I don’t call either a big bore. Those are 45cal and up IMO. And after using them personally and seeing them used there’s no doubt in my mind on that. A 450 Dakota on Buffalo is in another league altogether than anything smaller. Same for the big express rounds in a double rifle.
The 375 and 416 are terrific hunting rounds and will take down anything they’re pointed at, but not lime a real big bore.
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If its not a bigbore it sure does show up a lot on bigbore forums.  Since the beginning of the internet the 375 get as many posts on them as any other calibre. Having owned .585, 460 and .416, I agree 375 seems medium, but it does seem to get the peoples vote. Just enough bore size, energy, the fact safari rifle options usually include it, african flavor maybe
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Well Gunner, I'd certainly consider your 50-110 as a big bore, even though it doesn't make that first definition.
JWP475, I won't consider the Marlin camp special 40 S&W as a big bore.
Maybe we should go back to where the 12 bore is where big bore starts?
The term is so elusive that it is hard to make a definite line in the sand.
Perhaps Taylor's knock out formula?
I don't think you'll get everyone to agree on the lower limit of "Big Bore".. Be my guess if there were 10 people in a room there would be 10 opinions of what exactly constitutes a "big bore"' You can't ignore bore size. If you ignore bore size then my 338 Lapua with a 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS has 5,000 plus foot pounds of energy so it is now a big bore It is bore size period
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You can't ignore bore size. If you ignore bore size then my 338 Lapua with a 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS has 5,000 plus foot pounds of energy so it is now a big bore
It is bore size period
Has to more than just bore size. As mentioned 375H&H and similar wildcats turn up on every bigbore forum on the net, and on very busy bigbore forums they can be high posting topics. 375 winchester on the other hand, nope. Even 45-70 far less airplay.
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You can't ignore bore size. If you ignore bore size then my 338 Lapua with a 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS has 5,000 plus foot pounds of energy so it is now a big bore
It is bore size period
Has to more than just bore size. As mentioned 375H&H and similar wildcats turn up on every bigbore forum on the net, and on very busy bigbore forums they can be high posting topics. 375 winchester on the other hand, nope. Even 45-70 far less airplay. I agree - it's more common to link bore size and energy to the definition. I wouldn't class 45ACP as big bore.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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On gun forums across the world someone is posting a thread ....I am about to get my first big bore .....What is the best, a Model 70 in 375 or a Sako etc. in 375..
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You can't ignore bore size. If you ignore bore size then my 338 Lapua with a 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS has 5,000 plus foot pounds of energy so it is now a big bore
It is bore size period
Has to more than just bore size. As mentioned 375H&H and similar wildcats turn up on every bigbore forum on the net, and on very busy bigbore forums they can be high posting topics. 375 winchester on the other hand, nope. Even 45-70 far less airplay. I agree - it's more common to link bore size and energy to the definition. I wouldn't class 45ACP as big bore. A .40 caliber longrifle is slightly big for squirrel, pretty small for deer, not much of a "big bore". A .400 Jeffery is an elephant gun. The difference? The power. The power of modern rifles changed the definition of "big bore". So it's clearly not just the bore size.
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
All about the common usage of a word or phrase. "Calibre" being a perfect example in the world of guns. Just about every time the word Calibre is used what is really meant is Cartridge. Look here https://weatherby.com/store/markv-accumark/ Scroll down and there is a drop down list headed Calibre. Actually even "bore size" in common use is bullet diameter. In common usage when "big" is added to "bore" it means power and/or case capacity. If Winchester was to chamber for the 375/06 you can bet it would not be in the same rifles as they chamber for the 375, 416 and 458
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
All about the common usage of a word or phrase. "Calibre" being a perfect example in the world of guns. Just about every time the word Calibre is used what is really meant is Cartridge. Look here https://weatherby.com/store/markv-accumark/ Scroll down and there is a drop down list headed Calibre. Actually even "bore size" in common use is bullet diameter. In common usage when "big" is added to "bore" it means power and/or case capacity. If Winchester was to chamber for the 375/06 you can bet it would not be in the same rifles as they chamber for the 375, 416 and 458 And that is the problem. Bore size and life is simpler. The 375 H&H was a suseecfull medium bore used against dangerous game successfully but is is still a medium
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
All about the common usage of a word or phrase. "Calibre" being a perfect example in the world of guns. Just about every time the word Calibre is used what is really meant is Cartridge. Look here https://weatherby.com/store/markv-accumark/ Scroll down and there is a drop down list headed Calibre. Actually even "bore size" in common use is bullet diameter. In common usage when "big" is added to "bore" it means power and/or case capacity. If Winchester was to chamber for the 375/06 you can bet it would not be in the same rifles as they chamber for the 375, 416 and 458 And that is the problem. Bore size and life is simpler. The 375 H&H was a suseecfull medium bore used against dangerous game successfully but is is still a medium It might well be a medium for you and any others but for the vast majority as well as gun makers the 375 is a big bore. If you were to start a guns/hunting site and had forums for Small Bore, Medium Bore and Big Bore then what would be you cut off for Big Bores forum. If you made it 45 and several on this thread have said big bore is 45 and over then without the 375 your Big Bores forum would not be very active. That case capacity is a factor can be seen by posts on big bore forums. People don't start topics on the 44 Magnum etc. on a Big Bores forum. As a side note, do you use the word Calibre instead of Cartridge?
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it is hard to maintain the 375 as a medium bore when yet another bigbore forum fills up with 375 posts. 4 topics in the top 10 as we speak. It may not seem big to those of us running 500 and 585 class guns, but it certainly gets the peoples vote.
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.375 is more where the medium bores end as you can load them with medium bore bullet weights and in today's market, that is more likely the majority choice.
Lots of premium bullet weights under 270 grains out there and they co-align with the .338 market more than the big bore segment.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
All about the common usage of a word or phrase. "Calibre" being a perfect example in the world of guns. Just about every time the word Calibre is used what is really meant is Cartridge. Look here https://weatherby.com/store/markv-accumark/ Scroll down and there is a drop down list headed Calibre. Actually even "bore size" in common use is bullet diameter. In common usage when "big" is added to "bore" it means power and/or case capacity. If Winchester was to chamber for the 375/06 you can bet it would not be in the same rifles as they chamber for the 375, 416 and 458 And that is the problem. Bore size and life is simpler. The 375 H&H was a suseecfull medium bore used against dangerous game successfully but is is still a medium It might well be a medium for you and any others but for the vast majority as well as gun makers the 375 is a big bore. If you were to start a guns/hunting site and had forums for Small Bore, Medium Bore and Big Bore then what would be you cut off for Big Bores forum. If you made it 45 and several on this thread have said big bore is 45 and over then without the 375 your Big Bores forum would not be very active. That case capacity is a factor can be seen by posts on big bore forums. People don't start topics on the 44 Magnum etc. on a Big Bores forum. As a side note, do you use the word Calibre instead of Cartridge? Just because people post about the 338, 9.3, and 375 mediums in the big bore forum doesn’t miraculously make them a big bore
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.375 is more where the medium bores end as you can load them with medium bore bullet weights and in today's market, that is more likely the majority choice.
Lots of premium bullet weights under 270 grains out there and they co-align with the .338 market more than the big bore segment. Exactly
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.375 is more where the medium bores end as you can load them with medium bore bullet weights and in today's market, that is more likely the majority choice.
Lots of premium bullet weights under 270 grains out there and they co-align with the .338 market more than the big bore segment. Exactly What John says about the bullets is correct and undoubtedly is a reflection of the widespread use of the various 375s and their velocity. On the other hand the M70 Express rifle is 375, 416 and 458. The 378 Wby, like their 416 and 460, is not available in the lower price versions of the Mark V but the 338/378 is available. The Vanguard® Dangerous Game Rifle is 375 H&H. Have a look at a whole lot of custom wood/blue guns and pick out all the rifles that have quarter ribs and they be pretty much all 375 and bigger. The few small caibres with a quarter rib will often be part of a pair and the other part being 375 and up.
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When released in 1912, it was considered a medium bore and I seriously doubt H&H have altered their orig. view. Pre-war 375 magnum mausers, Westley Richards .318 mausers and Rigby 416 mausers of the same period don't seem to have quarter ribs. _Holland&Holland still produce new 375 bolt rifles without quarter ribs. From a commercial point of view it is 375 and that is where the market sees things.
Then as was mentioned the 375 is the minimum calibre for dangerous game in Africa.
Laws in Africa don't state 'big bore' as legal minimum.
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.375 is more where the medium bores end as you can load them with medium bore bullet weights and in today's market, that is more likely the majority choice.
Lots of premium bullet weights under 270 grains out there and they co-align with the .338 market more than the big bore segment. Exactly What John says about the bullets is correct and undoubtedly is a reflection of the widespread use of the various 375s and their velocity. On the other hand the M70 Express rifle is 375, 416 and 458. The 378 Wby, like their 416 and 460, is not available in the lower price versions of the Mark V but the 338/378 is available. The Vanguard® Dangerous Game Rifle is 375 H&H. Have a look at a whole lot of custom wood/blue guns and pick out all the rifles that have quarter ribs and they be pretty much all 375 and bigger. The few small caibres with a quarter rib will often be part of a pair and the other part being 375 and up. Nice but it is still a medium bore, all of that doesn't increase the bore size
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When released in 1912, it was considered a medium bore and I seriously doubt H&H have altered their orig. view. Pre-war 375 magnum mausers, Westley Richards .318 mausers and Rigby 416 mausers of the same period don't seem to have quarter ribs. _Holland&Holland still produce new 375 bolt rifles without quarter ribs. From a commercial point of view it is 375 and that is where the market sees things.
Then as was mentioned the 375 is the minimum calibre for dangerous game in Africa.
Laws in Africa don't state 'big bore' as legal minimum. Agreed
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.375 is more where the medium bores end as you can load them with medium bore bullet weights and in today's market, that is more likely the majority choice.
Lots of premium bullet weights under 270 grains out there and they co-align with the .338 market more than the big bore segment. Exactly What John says about the bullets is correct and undoubtedly is a reflection of the widespread use of the various 375s and their velocity. On the other hand the M70 Express rifle is 375, 416 and 458. The 378 Wby, like their 416 and 460, is not available in the lower price versions of the Mark V but the 338/378 is available. The Vanguard® Dangerous Game Rifle is 375 H&H. Have a look at a whole lot of custom wood/blue guns and pick out all the rifles that have quarter ribs and they be pretty much all 375 and bigger. The few small caibres with a quarter rib will often be part of a pair and the other part being 375 and up. A large amount of dangerous game has been taken with medium bores. In fact Bell took hundreds of elephants with small bores. The game hunted doesn't increase the bore size
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375 Holland & Holland was the British response
to 9,3x62, so I take that they created a medium
bore to rival another medium bore.
Harry Selby wrote that he witnessed clients
shoot better with 375 than with 'heavy doubles'.
I take that to mean they shot better when not
using a big bore.
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You guys are adding a power level. Which is not tied to bore size, "it is BIG BORE" power level and bore size ie 2 different things
Then why was a "big bore" a lot bigger in the 1800s? Is a .458 a small bore?
Last edited by Goosey; 01/31/21.
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Pre-war 375 magnum mausers, Westley Richards
.318 mausers and Rigby 416 mausers of the same
period don't seem to have quarter ribs.
_Holland&Holland still produce new 375 bolt rifles
without quarter ribs.
I didn't say they did. What I said is you look at a lot of wood/blue custom guns it is 375 and up where you see the quarter ribs. Perhaps you can advise Weatherby that the 378 is a medium and should be in the same rifles as the 338/378 and the same for Winchester and the 375 and 338  Isn't good that we resolve things here:)
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Pre-war 375 magnum mausers, Westley Richards
.318 mausers and Rigby 416 mausers of the same
period don't seem to have quarter ribs.
_Holland&Holland still produce new 375 bolt rifles
without quarter ribs.
I didn't say they did. What I said is you look at a lot of wood/blue custom guns it is 375 and up where you see the quarter ribs. Perhaps you can advise Weatherby that the 378 is a medium and should be in the same rifles as the 338/378 and the same for Winchester and the 375 and 338 Isn't good that we resolve things here:) The type of rifle has ZERO to do with bore size. A medium bore can most certainly be in an Ecpress rifle
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I just looked at Kimber Caprivi. Yep, 375, 416, 458 Lott. Where is the 338 ?
Model 70 Super Grade stops at the 338:) then the Express M70 is 375, 416 and 458.
Just checked Norma Safari ammo. Starts at 375 Belted and 375 Flanged.
Last edited by MikeMcGuire; 01/31/21.
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I just looked at Kimber Caprivi. Yep, 375, 416, 458 Lott. Where is the 338 ?
Model 70 Super Grade stops at the 338:) then the Express M70 is 375, 416 and 458.
Just checked Norma Safari ammo. Starts at 375 Belted and 375 Flanged.
And the 375 H&H is still a 375 and a medium bore
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When released in 1912, it was considered
a medium bore and I seriously doubt H&H
have altered their orig. view.
Holland and Holland once considered anything under 10bore a light rifle and then under .500 a medium bore. They alter their view to popular belief whenever they want, its how you stay in top of marketing. Its also how we name things. I started this thread to stimulate the forum a bit, knowing it always devolves into semantics. Hoping for a few more pages, but with the Jp452 guy already down to one liners, we are probably out of juice.;) Oh well. Can we all just agree to disagree that 'bigbore' is subjective, the 375 H&H "apparently belongs on every bigbore forum" because no one has ever been able to get rid of it. 
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I didn't say they did. What I said is you look at a lot of wood/blue custom guns it is 375 and up where you see the quarter ribs.
And I said H&H still produce .375 safari rifles without such.and have been doing so for over a century now Ralf Martini has been producing top grade English style mausers for some time , and ribs are optional according to customer budgets and tastes. His entry level featured offering at $19,000 does not include quarter rib. D'Arcy Echols Classics I've yet to see his large bores with quarter ribs. Jerry Fisher, he will build them with or without. The new production Mauser 98 Magnum Expert does not have a quarter rib for 375 or 416.
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I didn't say they did. What I said is you look at a lot of wood/blue custom guns it is 375 and up where you see the quarter ribs.
And I said H&H still produce .375 safari rifles without such.and have doing do for over a century now Ralf Martini had been producing top grade English style mausers for some time , and ribs are optional according to customer budgets and tastes.His entry level featured offering at $19000 does not include quarter rib. D'Arcy Echols Classics I've yet to see his large bores with quarter ribs. Jerry Fisher, he will build them with or without. You have missed the point. Pick out the custom wood/blue rifles with quarter ribs and they will be nearly always 375 and up and often the very few that are smaller calibres will have a quarter rib because they are one of a pair of rifles. By why are companies like Winchester, Weatherby and Kimber putting the 375 bore with the 416 and 45 and the 338 with the 300, 7mm Mag etc .I will tell you why and the answer is what the market will bear and the market will bear higher prices for a big bore.
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Marketing does not make 375 a big bore.
It's marketed with the larger bores primarily
because it's often the legal minimum for DG.
and because 375 is such a versatile/popular
choice for Africa , I can see why companies
market 375 rifles and ammunition in the safari
category.
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I recall Sako Safari .338win, 375 H&H, offered with quarter rib , dropbox/bow release straddle floorplate and barrel-band , ala African Express style. ..but they also offered regular, deluxe, superdeluxe and a Fibreclass in same chamberings that looked nothing like a safari style. Sako Safari was also offered in 9,3x62. and if I'm not dreaming an old Sako brochure from very early 1980s or thereabouts showed 9,3x64 Brenneke in the listing. Dakota 76 available in .338win African Grade that looks similar to Sako Safari. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/zGZ0MzkV/IMG-20210202-054947.jpg)
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Yes, I remember them well. There have also been custom made scaled down versions on the little Sako Vixen action both in America and Australia.
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I see 300 grains and 375 cal as well as 400 grains and 410/416 cal as heavy medium bores, true Big Bores to me start at 458 cal and 500 grains. THIS
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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When released in 1912, it was considered
a medium bore and I seriously doubt H&H
have altered their orig. view.
Holland and Holland once considered anything under 10bore a light rifle and then under .500 a medium bore. They alter their view to popular belief whenever they want, its how you stay in top of marketing. Its also how we name things. I started this thread to stimulate the forum a bit, knowing it always devolves into semantics. Hoping for a few more pages, but with the Jp452 guy already down to one liners, we are probably out of juice.;) Oh well. Can we all just agree to disagree that 'bigbore' is subjective, the 375 H&H "apparently belongs on every bigbore forum" because no one has ever been able to get rid of it. Doesn't deserve more than one liners, it can be boiled down to simply "bore diameter"
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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When released in 1912, it was considered
a medium bore and I seriously doubt H&H
have altered their orig. view.
Holland and Holland once considered anything under 10bore a light rifle and then under .500 a medium bore. They alter their view to popular belief whenever they want, its how you stay in top of marketing. Its also how we name things. I started this thread to stimulate the forum a bit, knowing it always devolves into semantics. Hoping for a few more pages, but with the Jp452 guy already down to one liners, we are probably out of juice.;) Oh well. Can we all just agree to disagree that 'bigbore' is subjective, the 375 H&H "apparently belongs on every bigbore forum" because no one has ever been able to get rid of it. Doesn't deserve more than one liners, it can be boiled down to simply "bore diameter" Actually it only needs one word "no"
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Some are on their way to calling the 6.5 Creedmoor a big bore. LMAO
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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As long as we have folks still posting this sort of stuff and the one liners keep reducing their sentence output, the thread will continue.
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Some are on their way to calling the 6.5 Creedmoor a big bore. LMAO JpV375 You were down to one word posts above, even quoting yourself. I was hoping that trend would continue to either not hearing from you at all or worst case you just answering yourself each time You are number challenged I see, plus, I don't give a rats azz as to what you want or like
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You are number challenged I see, plus, I don't give a rats azz as to what you want or like
Cmon now JVW358 you do or you wouldnt be replying on my thread. I appreciate the input btw. 3 pages of one liners and you self quoting, profound stuff. And this has turned out to be a usual 375 thread on a bigbore forum too. Plenty of posts, lots of interest, pretty clear the calibre belongs here.
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You are number challenged I see, plus, I don't give a rats azz as to what you want or like
Cmon now JVW358 you do or you wouldnt be replying on my thread. I appreciate the input btw. 3 pages of one liners and you self quoting, profound stuff. And this has turned out to be a usual 375 thread on a bigbore forum too. Plenty of posts, lots of interest, pretty clear the calibre belongs here. More like your usual trolling
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I like several definitions and some are conflicting.
The book "Dangerous Game Rifles - Second Edition-" by Terry Wieland, Mr. Wieland had a wider definition of "Big Bore" cartridges than some of you. This book is a good read, by the way!
Included as "Big Bore" are cartridges in the lever rifles such as 444, 405, 45-70, 450 Marlin, and bigger.
In the bolt rifles the "Big Bore" cartridges include the 375 H&H with a muzzle energy of 4500 ft-lbs all the way up to the - 700 Nitro which is listed in the appendix as a muzzle energy of 8,900 ft-lbs and mentions the 700 H&H without noting muzzle energy, the 577 Tyrannosaur, the 585 GMA, 505 Gibbs (6256 ft-lbs), 600 Nitro (7,600 ft-lbs)
In my opinion, he didn't seem to like the 577 Tyrannosaur much, mainly due to excessive recoil and problems with feeding in the rifle the cartridge was in..
He covers quite a bit in this book, including the big black powder , the lever, the bolt, the doubles, and the single rifles.
From my personal experience:
My brother owned a bolt action 50 BMG and I thought that was a little much for anything I'd shoot. The 460 Weatherby without a muzzle break was as much as I thought was comfortable to shoot, but that was 40+ years ago. I doubt I would think the 460 is comfortable anymore even with a muzzle break. Getting long in the tooth makes one have a different view on some things.
Last edited by Bugger; 02/01/21.
I prefer classic.
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I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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My 338 Laupa shooting a 300 grain bullet has 5200 FPE, but energy doesn't change the bore size
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More like your usual trolling
From the King of one line schit-stirring I'll take that with a grain of salt. My suggestion is if you dont like the heat son, stay out of the kitchen. Or hang around, 375 doesnt get to be one of the major bigbore topics without fellas arguing about it
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More like your usual trolling
From the King of one line schit-stirring I'll take that with a grain of salt. My suggestion is if you dont like the heat son, stay out of the kitchen. Or hang around, 375 doesnt get to be one of the major bigbore topics without fellas arguing about it Ignorance and popularity doesn't make the bore size change dumb azz
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I like several definitions and some are conflicting.
The book "Dangerous Game Rifles - Second Edition-" by Terry Wieland, Mr. Wieland had a wider definition of "Big Bore" cartridges than some of you. This book is a good read, by the way!
Included as "Big Bore" are cartridges in the lever rifles such as 444, 405, 45-70, 450 Marlin, and bigger.
In the bolt rifles the "Big Bore" cartridges include the 375 H&H with a muzzle energy of 4500 ft-lbs all the way up to the - 700 Nitro which is listed in the appendix as a muzzle energy of 8,900 ft-lbs and mentions the 700 H&H without noting muzzle energy, the 577 Tyrannosaur, the 585 GMA, 505 Gibbs (6256 ft-lbs), 600 Nitro (7,600 ft-lbs)
In my opinion, he didn't seem to like the 577 Tyrannosaur much, mainly due to excessive recoil and problems with feeding in the rifle the cartridge was in..
He covers quite a bit in this book, including the big black powder , the lever, the bolt, the doubles, and the single rifles.
From my personal experience:
My brother owned a bolt action 50 BMG and I thought that was a little much for anything I'd shoot. The 460 Weatherby without a muzzle break was as much as I thought was comfortable to shoot, but that was 40+ years ago. I doubt I would think the 460 is comfortable anymore even with a muzzle break. Getting long in the tooth makes one have a different view on some things.
Good reference, its all perceptions. In the day a 450 blackpowder or even a 577 blackpowder express was not a bigbore. It was the medium for usually non serious stuff. Anything under an 8 or heavily loaded 10 bore didnt get classed as big whatsoever. Obviously what fellas talk about as big had to change when smaller nitro expresses hit the gamefields. That said there were references even to 450nitro class as large medium bores at first. Anyone drawing a 'hard fast bore size' rule for any of this doesnt understand history.
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Ignorance and popularity doesn't make the bore size change dumb azz
JPZ338, it doesnt take much to roll you over does it. About 4 posts to be exact. You poked about quoting others and repeating the same stuff trying to get a response, now your cursing when someone turns it around on you. 24,000 posts and my guess is most of them have been your idea of a 'one line masterpeice' and these occasions you meltdown because someone gives it back. Hope you liked the ride I took you on. And feel free to hang around son, the 375 doesnt get to be one of the most popular bigbores on forums if folks arent debating it
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Ignorance and popularity doesn't make the bore size change dumb azz
JPZ338, it doesnt take much to roll you over does it. About 4 posts to be exact. You poked about quoting others and repeating the same stuff trying to get a response, now your cursing when someone turns it around on you. 24,000 posts and my guess is most of them have been your idea of a 'one line masterpeice' and these occasions you meltdown because someone gives it back. Hope you liked the ride I took you on. And feel free to hang around son, the 375 doesnt get to be one of the most popular bigbores on forums if folks arent debating it Novel length to say nothing of importance. Easy to expose you
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In the day a 450 blackpowder or even a 577 blackpowder express was not a bigbore. It was the medium for usually non serious stuff. Anything under an 8 or heavily loaded 10 bore didnt get classed as big whatsoever. Obviously what fellas talk about as big had to change when smaller nitro expresses hit the gamefields. That said there were references even to 450nitro class as large medium bores at first. Anyone drawing a 'hard fast bore size' rule for any of this doesnt understand history.
EXACTLY!
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Just for some clarification on African minimums for DG: Of 12 countries where commercial hunting is permitted, 3 specify a .375 caliber with no minimum KE. South Africa: no minimum for most provinces, and .375 for some provinces. No minimum for KE. Namibia: 5400 joules (4000 ft-lbs) for DG and 2700 joules for LG (2000 ft-lbs). Cameroon: .354 caliber with no minimum KE. Some have appealed to the .375 H&H as minimum for African DG. That's obviously not so. For the countries that state .375 it's caliber with no minimum in kinetic energy. Plus the 9.3 x 62 has been used to kill every African game animal, including eles, and is legal in most countries for that purpose. It quite easily makes over 5400 joules when handloaded. Bob www.bigbores.ca
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"Small-bore refers to calibers with a diameter of .32 inches or smaller.[1] It may also refer to small-bore rifle competition. The medium-bore refers to calibers with a diameter between .33 inches up to .39 inches and large-bore refers to calibers with a diameter of .40 inches or larger.[2] Miniature bore historically referred to calibers under 22 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-bore
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"But the queen of the medium bores is the .375
H&H Magnum, one of the world's most useful and
widely distributed cartridges, and probably the best
all-around cartridge ever devised."~ Jack O'Connor, The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, Outdoor Life (1961). Medium-Bore Cartridges for Big Game Huntinghttps://www.petersenshunting.com/editorial/medium-bore-cartridges-big-game-hunting/371652![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/mrJWkd1P/IMG-20210202-080141.jpg)
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The .460 as it is very specialized cartridge and cannot be covered properly unless it has been handloaded, which is seldom the case in the commercial mags. The 2600fps often quoted is easy, sand and cat poo will get that, not maximum and does not meet the factory marketing which was truthful and provable at 2700fps for the 500grainers and 8000fpe . In fact, you can get there with both 500 grain and 600 grain bullets using 4350 with the 500's and either 4350 or 4831 with the 600's. In the .460 I tried 13 bullets and 15 powders. In the .458 I tried 18 bullets and about 15 powders plus some factory loads. These cartridges are very flexible and cover the majority of hunting under 200 yards with longer shots more realistic once you learn the trajectories. Even the .458 has a point blank range of around 250 yards using the pointed 300gn Barnes TSX allowing a straight on hold. Now, the unspoken, "thump". You can see it. The animals either drop cold where they stand or freeze up totally numb with a "hunch up" in almost slow motion. The last chew has ceased. Did a cull in the Cape Country before I left Oz on a million plus acre property. The house was 19 kilometers from the front gate. That is a hell of a driveway. We took out a .458 and .460 with orders to kill everything that eats grass or drinks water. Scrub bull, brumbies and pigs were the game. The pigs were the most aggressive and savage I had ever seen. Several dozen animals were taken. The .458 cartridges worked very well and culling provides are great opportunity to try different bullets and loads. We did.
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Just for some clarification on African minimums for DG: ....
Some have appealed to the .375 H&H as minimum for African DG. That's obviously not so. For the countries that state .375 it's caliber with no minimum in kinetic energy. Plus the 9.3 x 62 has been used to kill every African game animal, including eles, and is legal in most countries for that purpose. ...
Yes theres some misconception that it has to be .375 H&H, when in fact one can use 376 Steyr. Even after .375 was stipulated as legal min. by KGD., they still permitted experienced residents to use their well proven 9,3x62 but on a funny note .375 officially became a big bore when Winchester said so... ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/4xTN30Gm/IMG-20210202-054528.jpg)
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[quote=CZ550]Just for some clarification on African minimums for DG: ....
Some have appealed to the .375 H&H as minimum for African DG. That's obviously not so. For the countries that state .375 it's caliber with no minimum in kinetic energy. Plus the 9.3 x 62 has been used to kill every African game animal, including eles, and is legal in most countries for that purpose. ...
Yes theres some misconception that it has to be .375 H&H, when in fact one can use 376 Steyr. Even after .375 was stipulated as legal min. by KGD., they still permitted experienced residents to use their well proven 9,3x62 but on a funny note .375 officially became a big bore when Winchester said so... (quote) Yep, and I addressed that very cartridge in a recent blog on "mediums". I denied it was even a medium let alone a BIG BORE. BIG BORES commence for me at .40 caliber and 4000 ft-lbs (5400 joules). Bob www.bigbores.ca
Last edited by CZ550; 02/01/21.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Last I heard was the US Army considers everything .50 cal or less to be smallarms.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Last I heard was the US Army considers everything .50 cal or less to be smallarms. After firing the 505Gibbs a few times, I considerred it to be artillary
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Interesting how many of those had a "moderator".
Wonder why?
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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To some anything above a 22 LR is big-bore, to some anything smaller than 50 cal is small arms. To others anything smaller than a 8 bore is not a "Big-Bore". To some a 45 ACP camp gun is a big-bore while a 416 Weatherby is a medium-bore.
It's so confusing...
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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To some anything above a 22 LR is big-bore, to some anything smaller than 50 cal is small arms. To others anything smaller than a 8 bore is not a "Big-Bore". To some a 45 ACP camp gun is a big-bore while a 416 Weatherby is a medium-bore.
It's so confusing...
Not at all. The vast majority of shooters see Big Bores starting at the 375. They do not see the 45 ACP, 44 Magnum etc. as Big Bores. This reflected by guns/ammo/hunting sites as Karl's post has shown. Manufactures like Winchester, Weatherby, Kimber to name three see the 375 lumped together with the 458 Winchester and 458 Lott and Wby put the 378 together with the 416 and 460 Wby.
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Campfire Kahuna
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A Rigby I used to own. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/FvzkyQj.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/VquCeSx.jpg)
Last edited by DigitalDan; 02/02/21.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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A Rigby I used to own. Was it a big bore?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Manufactures like Winchester, Weatherby, Kimber to name three see the 375 lumped together with the 458 Winchester and 458 Lott
Lumped together because they are the common legal DG chamberings, not necessarily because they are all big bores. Have those three Co. explicitly categorized .375 as a big bore in literature ? John Pondoro Taylor, Jack O and Craig Boddington all refer to .375 as medium. SCI article on 375 Ruger refers to .375 H&H as "Queen of the medium bores"
"I found that many of the 17 white hunters regularly
employed by White Hunters Limited of Niarobi used
a .375 for their medium rifle, and most all of them
considered it ideal."- Elmer Keith, Safari, Safari Pulications (1968), p. 136. I think the cover says .375 Super Mediums ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/jSfwJYLH/IMG-20210203-105230.jpg)
Last edited by Starman; 02/02/21.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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In black powder days was thee 450 a big bore?
What Karl's post shows on the forums is the overwhelming and vast majority of shooters see the 375 as the start if the big bores. At the end of the day it is all about opinion.
It is not like saying 375 bullets won't fit a 9.3
iI will ask the same question I asked before. If you started a guns/ammo/hunting site would you have Big Bores start at 416 or as others have said 45.
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Campfire Kahuna
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A Rigby I used to own. Was it a big bore? .416 Rigby big enough?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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What Karl's post shows on the forums is the overwhelming and vast majority of shooters see the 375 as the start if the big bores.
Forum owners can structure things however they like for their own reasons. Post a question like: " Do you consider the .375 cal a big bore?" on a forum that often deals with the topic of DG, Africa and associated rifles, and see what kind of responses you actually receive. You may just come out a little disappointed .
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Forum owners can structure things however
they like for their own reasons.
And why do you think they always have the 375 in Big Bores. AccurateReloading while near dead now used to be by far and away the biggest on Big Bores of internet forums. In fact it was more active than their small and medium bore forums and it has always had the 375 in Big Bores forum.
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I don't care which category the forum owner
puts .375
What matters more is what the forum members
keen on Africa or just the .375 calibre alone ,
sensibly deem .375 to be.
How about asking WeatherbyNation.com folks
if they consider 375 Wby and 378 Wby to be
medium or big bore..?...or shoot H&H London,
Purdey, Westley Richards and Rigby an email
and ask if .375 is medium or big bore?
You are talking like just because a small number
of forum owners seem to agree with you , that
you must be correct ..
Long before forums came about .375 was
understood to be medium and plenty still
hold that view despite what a new age net
moderator wants you to think.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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A Rigby I used to own. Was it a big bore? .416 Rigby big enough? I think that meets the criteria for all, except maybe those that think it's 0.45 and over. From the other more recent posts it sounds like there is a cross over of meaning between "big bore" and "dangerous game cartridge" where the former is commonly being applied to the latter, which comes back to being a combined calibre/energy definition. If we talk about a dangerous game cartridge I think it is widely accepted that it is 375H&H and above, although the trusty old 7x57 can take out an elephant if you are careful with your shot, but I personally wouldn't try it outside of an armoured vehicle.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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If we talk about a dangerous game cartridge I think
it is widely accepted that it is 375H&H and above, .
Yes, but prior to .375 being made legal minimum it wasn't all that popular in Africa...so we are talking like 45 yrs after the introduction of 375H&H that it it really kicked off. Quality mass produced German 9,3x62 could be had for far less than a low production English .375 bolt rifle...the rifle that made .375 more affordable was pre-64 M70..but why buy one in 1936 when the established 9,3x62 already does the job, is still legal and ammo common ? Sales really took off for the pre-64 when .375 as legal minimum came in, commercial ivory hunting was on the decline and client safaris on the rise. Harry Manners and Wally Johnson both used pre-64 .375 for harvesting ivory and used the same when they switched over to being PHs looking after safari clients. The Win. rifles were good but not great as far as African professional hunters were concerned. **** When Harry Selby had his .470 double damaged he had a back up .375 to finish the safari , but considered it unthinkable to finish the season without a heavy..I take that to mean that .375 was not considered a big-bore.
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This will never be resolved as we have proven by our posts.
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You can post the question on all those forums
you cite from Karl, and ask all those traditional
UK based rifle makers I mentioned..and ask
a few respected US rifle makers as well for their
view.
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I came across the question the forum Weatherby Nation and all responses were 375. Of course they could be influence by the 378, like Winchester with the 375, not being in the cheaper Mark Vs like the 338/378. But again, in black powder days what was the 450 Black Powder Express seen as? As to gun makers, D'Arcy Echols is on AR. I would bet if he posted something about a 375 he would put it on their Big Bores forum. One thing I have noticed on AR over many years is with their Reloading forum you will rarely see a question on 375 and up as the question will be on Big Bores forum and same with the Gunsmithing forum. One thing for sure and that is if you shoot one of the German or Japanese 378s with the super light barrel off the bench then you will take a lot of convincing that the 416 Rem/Ruger is a big bore and the 378 a medium bore.:)
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As to gun makers, D'Arcy Echols is on AR. I would bet if he posted something about a 375 he would put it on their Big Bores forum.
Since AR considers .375 big bore then naturally one might well post it in that section if you wanted forum members to see or read something on .375 cal .. but does that mean D'Arcy himself considers it a big bore?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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As to gun makers, D'Arcy Echols is on AR. I would bet if he posted something about a 375 he would put it on their Big Bores forum.
Since AR considers .375 big bore then naturally one would post it in that section if you wanted forum members to see or read something on .375 cal .. but does that mean D'Arcy himself considers it a big bore? I think D'Arcy sees it as the 458 Lott and beyond. As a side note. I just noticed in the 458 thread where we spoke about the 1970 or so vintage 458 Super Grade where Ron posted a picture of one and you said your one did not have the long rear sight base. My two were also a short base and without elevation adjustment. Had a very shallow V.
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Interesting how many of those had a "moderator".
Wonder why? They had mods, but not very active. Accurate reloading, the largest, never cared what calibres were posted. You note on the search I posted even 9.3x62 turns up and occasionally like with this forum stuff like 350 rigby or 35 whelen would erroneously appear. Ive never seen the mods remove a calibre when it does show on the wrong forum.. Similar for nitroexpress, africa hunting and Aus net.
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Karl,
If I saw someone new to AR post in the reloading or gunsmith forums on 375 and up I would suggest they make the same thread in Big Bores forum. In fact if if wanted to know about load for a 264 etc there is (now was:) ) more knowledge of the AR Big Bore forums. Amazing Saeed and Don could trade in the Big Bore forum for posting a banner congratulating Biden.
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You can post the question on all those forums
you cite from Karl, and ask all those traditional
UK based rifle makers I mentioned..and ask
a few respected US rifle makers as well for their
view. Starman, I wouldnt try and talk them or you out of seeing the 375 as a medium. My question as the OP, ' is 375 where bigbore starts', at least in the context of bigbore forums, we can say the answer is yes. I will say many of these forums formed subforums from member input. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's, gun writers, and of course regular joes. There is enough firepower at member level to have changed, influenced, or started at least 'one bigbore forum' with .400 or .458 minimum you would think, but I cant find one that did. I would agree if you start a debate on these forums about 'whether 375 really belongs' it will be similar to this one. Some saying yes, some saying no, but no one suggesting 375 be taken off that forum.
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.. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's,
gun writers, and of course regular joes.
Just because members go along with how a forum is structured , doesn't mean they agree. If Craig Boddington wanted to post about .375 he would comply with the forum I suspect and put it in the AR big bore section , but I doubt he would reprint his book and change his view that .375 is a medium.
My Original question as the OP, ' is 375 where bigbore starts', at least in the context of bigbore forums, the answer is yes.
Your orig question was much broader than what a few forum owners think.
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[quote=158XTP].. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's,
gun writers, and of course regular joes.
Just because members go along with how a forum is structured , doesn't mean they agree. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^ memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Just because members go along with
how a forum is structured , doesn't mean
they agree. I'll requote my above post "Many of these forums formed subforums from member input. AR ran discussions on their old bulletin board software before rolling out the new software. Members include industry professionals gunmakers, safari hunters,PH's, gun writers, and of course regular joes" "There is enough firepower at member level to have changed, influenced, or started at least 'one bigbore site' with .400 or .458 minimum you would think, but I cant find one that did."
Your orig question was much broader
than what a few forum owners think.
Which is why I said above "in the context of bigbore forums" we have an answer. Dont panic, if 375 is a medium to you, and your favorite writer and gunsmith, that wont change
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We don't have the answer to what you originally
asked...its now convenient for you to narrow it
to what a few forum owners think.
Look outside the restrictions of those forums
and you will see gunwriters past and present
as well as gunmakers and PHs refering to .375
as medium .and they have been doing so
for several decades before the net emerged .
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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We don't have the answer to what you originally
asked..its now convenient for you to narrow it
. Are you hard of reading Starman? For the third time, I am agreeing I started it broadly and admitting in just one area we have an answer. Dont panic, nothing was 'narrowed', the discussion is still open. And we dont have the answer, no. This debate never does. Sorry if I keep missing your replies, your editing a lot. to what a few forum owners think. Including the largest which formed from member input. And almost none existing specifying a 400 or 458 min. On the whole internet, in 27 years. (that I can recall or find on searches anyway) Its probably a worthwhile question next as to why that is.
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I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.
Find me current .375 manufacturers
that classify .375 as big bore in their
literature...and do the same with any
current gunwriters and PHs of repute.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.
Find me current .375 manufacturers
that classify .375 as big bore in their
litrature...and do the same with any
current gunwriters and PHs of repute.
Is there any gun manufacture that classifies calibres as Big Bores. Plenty who have Safari, Express etc and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc. Soooooooooo ....if you tell someone 375 is a medium bore then they will get disappointed when they go to buy 375 because of pricing and a generally lesser range of rifles from a manufacture. If they don't want wood and go to Weatherby then sorry, only the the DGR for the 378. A 338/378 can be had for a whole lot less money.
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..and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc.
I already have shown .338 can be lumped in with higher price Safari , African or Express category rifle... Rem even has Safari Grade .338win rounds. The new 300H&H Hart.Weiss magnum Mauser I handled had all the Safari/African/express features found on their .375 offering and priced the same.
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..and as we know the 375, 416 and 45 will be lumped together and at a higher price and the 338 will be with the 300 Win 270 etc.
As I already have shown .338 can be lumped in with the higher price Safari , African or Express category rifle...and Rem even has Safari Grade .338win rounds. The new 300H&Hart Hmann Weiss magnum Mauser I handled had all the Safari/African/express featurres found on their .375 and priced the same . Well Remington does not count and H&W is not exactly common. The bottom line is you go looking for a 375 rifles will limited to those in 416 and 45 and same price as 416 and 458. A 375 M70 Safari with their crap No 1 wood costs more than a Super Grade.
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Well Remington does not count and H&W is not exactly common.
Rem. cashing in on premium priced Safari grade 338 win ammunition does count. and now you are arguing H&W ain't common enough to enter the discussion , but the much lower sales Express rifles from Winchester do count in the discussion ,.. cherry picking . Since the topic is 375 , Holland & Holland is part of the discussion , "Bolt action magazine rifle" £49,000 below .375 £50,000 .375 and above huge difference of £1000 (2%) between a .270 and .375 Echols & Co. Classic $32,000 / .375 and up $32,600-33,000 Legend $15,000 (above or below .375)
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Tell me how many blokes you can find on 24 Hr and AR with H&W rifles and how many with M70 375. Then tell me how many Rem 700s in 375 and up, not many.
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LoL. So you saying most the guys on forums
that go to Africa to shoot a range of DG
hardly can afford a top shelf bolt action ?
Why do you limit the choice and discussion
of DG/express rifles to Winchester and other
more common brands?
What's the acceptable price limit for the
discussion on .375 cal rifles ?
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No, you indicated H&W were more common than the M70.
As to Safari hunters I am not talking about what they can afford but what they use. Saeed uses two beat up rifles he made on Dakota actions and just Leupold scopes and, wait for it, both are 375.
"Why do you limit the choice and discussion
of DG/express rifles to Winchester and other
more common brands?"
Because that is where things happen. So, what when Ruger made those express rifle with the integral quarter rib. Plenty of them on the forum. In fact you will find very few rifles on the forums that cost more than those Ruger Express rifles or Weatherby Accumark. And the Ruger Express, 375, 416 458.
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In a nutshell what the companies like Winchester, Kimber, Ruger and Weatherby know is a 375 will simply command a higher price than a 338 AND because most shooters lump the 375 with the 416 and 45 and that in turn is backed up by Karl's posting of the forum pictures.
You can argue all day long about H&W etc. but in the real everyday world the 375 is on a different ladder to the 338. he 375 is at the bottom of one ladder and the 338 is the top rung of another ladder.
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As a side note I reckon Winchester could bring out a 300 H& matching their 375 including open sights and sell if for the same price. They would make a lot from each rifle.
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No, you indicated H&W were more common than the M70.
Not at all., What I tried to say was you want to exclude limited production H&W rifles , but want to include limited production Safari express rifles from Winchester.
As to Safari hunters I am not talking about what they
can afford but what they use. ...
Because that is where things happen.
DG hunting happens with anything from beat up old pre64s and push-feeds to H&H Royal Doubles. Someone who can afford a Royal double could consider a $33k Echols Classic a poor man's choice...those who can afford $15k Legend might see M70 Express a poor man's choice. Or if a person is pressed for dollars try and find a used Sako Fibreclass or other Sako .375 not in the Express rifle premium price category.
You can argue all day long about H&W etc. but in the real everyday world the 375 is on a different ladder to the 338. he 375 is at the bottom of one ladder and the 338 is the top rung of another ladder.
It depends which company you buy your rifles from. Walk into H&H and other bespoke makers and all bolt rifles are considered exclusive , Not just .375 up and in the real everyday world of hunting rifles not many own higher price African Express rifles no matter which brand you go. And the real everyday day world for wealthy folk is different to non wealthy folk..British Royals are raised with royal warrant Purdeys and H&H and live their whole life with such - and it's a perfectly normal everyday thing to them. In a nutshell what the
companies like Winchester, Kimber, Ruger and
Weatherby know is a 375 will simply command
a higher price than a 338 ..
As a side note I reckon Winchester could bring out a 300 H&H matching their 375 including open sights and sell if for the same price.. Well that doesnt make sense. You say companies know .375 will command higher price than .338 and below ..then claim said companies could command same price for .300 as 375. Reality is a number of companies have been commanding about same price for .375 and below for a considerable number of years already. Whether it's a std. Sako or some bespoke brand.
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Out of curiosity are your posts typed on a mobile phone. The reason I ask is each line is short.
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700 Nitro
600 Nitro
577 Nitro
500 Nitro
505 Gibbs
475 Nitro
450 Nitro
458, etc are all big bores, I wouldn't argue much if 40 calibers were included, but 375 is not a big bore
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I've cited numerous sources from prior
to the net era that say .375 is medium.
Gunwriters, PHs, gun companies etc.
Ive cited tens of thousands of sources of safari hunters, PH's of note, outfitters. You can search them yourself, 37,000 posts to sift through on one site alone. Keep in mind some of those guys have shot more african game than US writers have ever seen.(For the record I dont consider only someone 'of note', just because they have written some book for an American to read) Popular vote carries as much weight as anything when it comes to naming conventions. Also my second question above is unanswered. Why do the major gun forums list .375 as a bigbore? These arent just 'a few regular fellas' plucking a number out of thin air. Some are the most experienced hunters around, also you'd assume they set their forums up to keep the most folks happy, least confusion, most relevance. We are talking tens of thousands of members, including PH's and industry professionals. Must be a pretty good reason .375 gets the vote most often and .400 and .458 never once in the internets history..
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700 Nitro
600 Nitro
577 Nitro
500 Nitro
505 Gibbs
475 Nitro
450 Nitro
458, etc are all big bores, I wouldn't argue much if 40 calibers were included, but 375 is not a big bore
Dynamite drop in their JWP375, I thought you went missing on the thread .Starman made a comeback for your side of the debate and here you are 
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Ive cited tens of thousands of sources of safari hunters, PH's of note, outfitters. ..
IIRC all you cited was some forum websites. Who are the individual gunwriters and PHs and .375 manufacturers that consider .375 a medium? You should have all that at your fingertips. You seem like a puppy with a new toy called the internet and you are trying to overturn what has been considered an established medium for generations.
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Ive cited tens of thousands of sources of safari hunters, PH's of note, outfitters. ..
IIRC all you cited was some forum websites. Including a search to 37,000 posts on 375 as a bigbore, including plenty of conversations from the above fellas I noted. I guess recall aint your strong point. Who are the individual gunwriters and PHs
and .375 manufacturers that consider .375
a medium?
You should have all that at your fingertips. huh? why should I be searching your side of the argument?
You seem like a puppy with a new toy called
the internet and you are trying to overturn
what has been considered a medium for
generations.
Just wondered if this is your final edit Starman? You post about 6 times to the one reply. You are like a dog worrying a boot that is a little big for it. At first you are not sure where to startt, then after a couple chews you pick up speed and your post gets bigger. Speaks of a fella who really doesnt like others opinions Regards overturning views on big game rifles. Again they change every couple decades being the point. 577 was a smallbore once, even 450 nitro was a medium. 375 has been considered big in levers since 1978 for a start. We will just have to agree to disagree.
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I'd say there are a lot more users of GI than a hunting forum and it seems they agree .375 ain't a big bore. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/Wb7X8dKH/IMG-20210207-201157.jpg)
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Regards overturning views on big game rifles. Again they change every couple decades being the point. 577 was a smallbore once, even 450 nitro was a medium. ...
.375 had been known as medium since release and many decades following , but you think it has changed every 20 yrs or so into something else ? email H&H to ask them what they classify .375 to be and see if they changed anything. since 1912. .
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Regards overturning views on big game rifles. Again they change every couple decades being the point. 577 was a smallbore once, even 450 nitro was a medium. ...
.375 had been a know as medium since release and many decades following , but you think it has changed every 20 yrs into something else ? email H&H to ask them what they classify .375 to be and see if they changed anything. since 1912. . We covered this. Firstly the calibre 375 isnt owned by H&H and H&H once considered anything under 577 medium or small bore. Also you could email winchester and its pretty clear what they consider a 375 win Or do they need to check that with H&H Aka opinions do change over time. I believe the popular opinion is that 375 is a bigbore. Most the conversations about 375 place it with 400, 458 etc and this is why the places with all the conversations on bigbores aka forums will include 375. We have to agree to disagree.
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I believe the popular opinion is that 375 is a bigbore.
. Guns International traffic at nearly 2 Millon visits per month says you are wrong.
. Firstly the calibre 375 isnt owned by H&H and H&H
once considered anything under 577 medium or small
bore.
What do H&H currently consider .375 cal.?
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"The .338 Winchester Magnum is part of a fairly small class of “medium-bore” cartridges between our all-American .30 and .375 (and/or 9.3mm, .366-caliber), which is where “dangerous game cartridges start.” Bullet diameters include 8mm (.323-inch), .33, and .35. "
Craig Boddington - May 29, 2019
[Big medicine for our big deer]
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"The .338 Winchester Magnum is part of a fairly small class of “medium-bore” cartridges between our all-American .30 and .375 (and/or 9.3mm, .366-caliber), which is where “dangerous game cartridges start.” Bullet diameters include 8mm (.323-inch), .33, and .35. "
Craig Boddington - May 29, 2019
[Big medicine for our big deer] Again, also Boddington
Holland & Holland's .375 goes clear back to 1912, but among Americans its real popularity starts in 1937 when it became one of the early offerings in the Winchester Model 70. For the next half-century it was America's favorite big bore--ready for Africa's big stuff, Alaska's biggest bears and all-around use as needed."
And Jack Lott
GunsandAmmo Hunting
"This book is about bigbore riflres, the 'supers', once the special ordance of professional hunters and wealthy sportsman. Back in 1937, when winchester introduced the Model 70 and included the 375H&H, the previous US view of the 30-06 as a "bigbore" was made obsolete"
If those two knowledgeable gents and a slew of other 'notable writers' consider the 375 a bigbore when it suits them, thats enough for anyone.
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As I have posted several times the different manufactures know that 375 market will bear the same pricing as 416 and 45.
Sure you can but a 338 M70 Super Grade BUT it is available in the standard price rifles whereas the 375 is not. You can buy a 340 in the Wby Safari BUT it is available in the Mark v Synthetic but the 378, 416 and 460 have as entry point the Mark V Deluxe. Want a fibreglass stock rifle in 378, 416 or 460 then the DGR is it.
At the end of the day the very bottom line no bull sh it is what are people prepared to pay.
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Starman we can keep posting information at each other all day.
The fact of the matter is there are plenty of folks saying the 375 is a bigbore, both high level writers( which personally I dont give a hoot about, but fellas like you do), vast numbers of hunters etc.
You can provide evidence of it being also called a medium bore sure, and I agree. And maybe in a world vote it would get voted more medium, who knows?
Another way of saying it is if I wanted to call it a bigbore its not wrong (according to experts and general consenusus) And if you want to call it medium, well there is plenty of consensus for that too.
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As I have posted several times the different manufactures know that 375 market will bear the same pricing as 416 and 45.
And again there are numerous makers that command about the same for a list of calibres under .375 as they do .375 Sako also had at least 5 models of .375 that were not Safari or express grade. Std, dlx, super dlx, classic , Fibreclass ,
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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The fact of the matter is there are plenty of folks saying the 375 is a bigbore,
As I said. nearly 2 million users per month at Guns International use the system with the understanding .375 ain't classed as BB.
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As I have posted several times the different manufactures know that 375 market will bear the same pricing as 416 and 45.
And again there are numerous makers that
command about the same for a list of calibres
under .375 as they do .375
Sako also had at least 5 models of .375 that
were not Safari or express grade.
Std, dlx, super dlx, classic , Fibreclass , Is Sako 85 Safari in 338. What about Dakota Safari/African.
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Is Sako 85 Safari in 338. What about Dakota Safari/African.
You never seen a Sako Safari or Dakota African in 338 win..?.. What about .300win and 9,3x62, you never seen those in Safari grade from Sako or Dakota ? https://www.dakotaarms.com/firearms/model-76/model-76-safari.htmlWhat really annoyed me about Sako was that it was avail.in 300win not .300H&H , otherwise I would have taken the plunge. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/VvBqHZ4f/IMG-20210208-070157.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/QtDkkrk4/IMG-20210208-071800.jpg)
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The fact of the matter is there are plenty of folks saying the 375 is a bigbore,
As I said. nearly 2 million users per month at Guns International use the system with the understanding .375 ain't classed as BB. Starman YOU were the one who decided forums arent iimportant, and that notable gun writers carried more weight. So then I posted a bunch of US writers who consider 375 a bigbore...including two of the most notable, Jack Lott and Boddington when it suits him. Now you bounce back the other way. Jack lott gets thrown out the window because he no lomger supports your side of the debate. Good heavens man, talk about painting yourself into a corner.
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You made it clear numbers on the internet are the deciding factor in your mind. Now you are defeated by your own logic....TFF.
Starman YOU were the one who decided forums arent iimportant,
Guns International isnt a social chat forum , its a business tool for wheeling and dealing in firearms globally...anything from the average Joe up to the Big name bespoke manufacturers and respected traders in such pre-owned firearms. ..Jack lott gets thrown out the window because he no lomger supports your side of the debate.
I didnt say anything about Mr Lott. but here's what Lott states in his articles .. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/ydMG7QM4/IMG-20210208-082923.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/1XR9rzz3/IMG-20210208-081555.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/Nf0V8XQH/IMG-20210208-075446.jpg)
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Give one of those very light barrel German or Japanese 378s to a 416 Taylor owner to shoot off the bench and then convince them that their 416 Taylor is a big bore and the 378 a medium bore
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Give one of those very light barrel German or Japanese 378s to a 416 Taylor owner to shoot off the bench and then convince them that their 416 Taylor is a big bore and the 378 a medium bore Recoil, nor powder capacity increases the bore size. A Remington model 600 in 308 win bruised my shoulder in 3 shots, no 375 has ever hurt me like that, but the 308 is still not a bigbore and neither is the 375s
Last edited by jwp475; 02/07/21.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Nope.....just for myself, personally I see 40+ as big bores! memtb
My thought's as well! You can do a lot with 40 and up,,,,, Like Jim said ! The 375 might keep you from getting bloody. But the 40 cal and up high powered rifle carts get the work done faster and easier. irl animals and situations sometimes aren't in or don't stay in a perfect situation to afford a perfect shot . Sometimes they are jacked up on adrenaline . If you only hunt heavy or dangerous game with a backup shooter. Then its not as much of an issue. But if your rifle Has to get the work done. As a friend on Chichagof Is that is a bear guide, says. Wider Is Better ! As long as you can hit well and soon with it !
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Perhaps something to consider. In Africa, where there is a lot of large potentially dangerous game and for which the .375 H&H was developed.....the .375 is “generally” considered a medium-bore. In America, where the majority of our big game taken is rather small and non-dangerous .....many people consider the 30-06 as a large caliber cartridge! So for many, maybe even for most Americans, the .375 is a “big-bore”! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Give one of those very light barrel German or Japanese 378s to a 416 Taylor owner to shoot off the bench and then convince them that their 416 Taylor is a big bore and the 378 a medium bore And yet, the 416 Taylor has a better reputation for dumping brown bear at close range than the 378. Wider Is better !
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Give one of those very light barrel German or Japanese 378s to a 416 Taylor owner to shoot off the bench and then convince them that their 416 Taylor is a big bore and the 378 a medium bore Recoil, nor powder capacity increases the bore size. A Remington model 600 in 308 win bruised my shoulder in 3 shots, no 375 has ever hurt me like that, but the 308 is still not a bigbore and neither is the 375s Exactly. Not in Any Way saying the 375 isn't a great cart. It is. But, if I need a big bore. I need more than the 375.
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Really now, it is a very personal thing, this what-is-a-big-bore rifle thing.
For girls, .375-caliber and larger.
For boys, .400-caliber and larger.
For men: .458-caliber and larger.
Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.
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Give one of those very light barrel German or Japanese 378s to a 416 Taylor owner to shoot off the bench..
Recoil, nor powder capacity increases the bore size. .. Using Mike's mentality I can build and load sub- 6lb 338rcm that recoils same as 9lb .375H-H and thus call it a big_bore.
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Really now, it is a very personal thing, this what-is-a-big-bore rifle thing.
For girls, .375-caliber and larger.
For boys, .400-caliber and larger.
For men: .458-caliber and larger. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Word!
Trump Won!
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore.
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. You sound like you may be a trouble maker But I'd like to know too. 308 is/was used in "full bore" shooting.
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 02/07/21.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. Taking into account your .375 b/b mentality Most likely a calibre or two down from what you consider it to be. BTW: Winchester did not produce an African M70 variant until 1956 (with intro of .458win) and were only offered in .458 ie: .375 were not avail. in pre-64 African not even when .375 sales took off in Africa with new minimum cal. laws. Anyone recall when Win. first offered a Safari type model in .375..?..was it only as late as the 90s' with intro of new CRF action..?
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. Anything smaller than .277 caliber! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. I think it has been stated before. Anything smaller than 50 caliber is small bore.
I prefer classic.
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I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. Anything smaller than .277 caliber! memtb More like 32 and below
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Anyone recall when Win. first offered a Safari
type model in .375..?..was it only as late as the
90s' with intro of new CRF action..?
The first M70 375 I had was about 1971 or so and the stock, except for those two cross bolts, were just like on the M70 XTR 270. Very Wby looking. The 375 in Australia was priced midway between the smaller calibres and the 458 Super Grade. The 375 had the heavier barrel with open sights and barrel recoil lug under the rear sight. I can't remember exactly when but definitely by the early 80s the 375 and 458 turned into the same gun and were called the Express and had the sling swivel on the barrel. The price of the Express 375 and 458 were still a lot more than the smaller calibres.
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When I stated small bores are .277 and down.....I thought that there should be a classification between “small bore and medium bore! If that class doesn’t exist....I have to go with anything below .32” as small bore! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
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For whatever it matters:
Big Bore - .400 and up
Med - .264 - .375
Small - < .264
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... I can't remember exactly when but definitely by the early 80s the 375 and 458 turned into the same gun and were called the Express and had the sling swivel on the barrel. The price of the Express 375 and 458 were still a lot more than the smaller calibres.
So all those yrs from 1937 Win didn't think they could make it in the market with an African Exp. priced .375 - Jack Lott wrote that until release of M70 .375 Americans considered .30-06 as 'Big Bore' despite .375H-H being known as medium since 1912. created to challenge the 1908 . 350 Rigby. Pondoro Taylor found .350 killed every bit as well as .375 and since the .35 Whelen can surpass old Rigby loads, then surely its A big-bore .375 in disguise.
“With it [the .350 Rigby] I killed practically all species of
African game from the elephant on down. I killed more
lions with this rifle than with any other.”
"There is nothing spectacular about this cartridge; it
has never had the write-up that the .318 and .375
Magnum get from time to time; nevertheless, it is a
splendidly effective shell and at ranges of up to at least
150 yards kills as instantaneously as the .375
Magnum. In addition, it has an appreciably lighter
recoil."
"No man in his right mind could possibly wish for
a better medium bore rifle than this for general
African hunting."
****** IIRC, Taylor also stated he nailed 11 elephants with 11 shots from his . 333 Jeffery_300 grain. and that .333 would travel the length of animals as folks also reported with . 318 WR.Before .375 minimum laws came in , Harry Selby typically recommended .318 WR to clients. He ended up with his first .375 only after clients gifted him an M70 at end of safari in 1950.
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OK, if 375 is a medium bore how far down do we go before we hit small bore. All a matter of opinion of course, but to me: 366 to 423.....heavy mediums 308 to 358.....medium bores 224 to 284.....small bores anything under 224.....miniatures
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... I can't remember exactly when but definitely by the early 80s the 375 and 458 turned into the same gun and were called the Express and had the sling swivel on the barrel. The price of the Express 375 and 458 were still a lot more than the smaller calibres.
So all those yrs from 1937 Win didn't think they could make it in the market with an African Exp. priced .375 - How much did a pre 64 375 cost as compared to 270/30-06 and 300 Win/338 Win. Stuart Otteson in his book on bolt actions said when the Post 63 came out Winchester kept the 375 for marketing reasons and lengthened the receiver to properly accomodate the 375.
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So all those yrs from 1937 Win didn't think they
could make it in the market with an African Exp.
priced .375 -
How much did a pre 64 375 cost as compared to 270/30-06 and 300 Win/338 Win. List price was the same for STD calibres and both H&H chamberings. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/nc81znX2/IMG-20210209-103446.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/Jzp6t9Vh/IMG-20210209-105044.jpg)
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So all those yrs from 1937 Win didn't think they
could make it in the market with an African Exp.
priced .375 -
How much did a pre 64 375 cost as compared to 270/30-06 and 300 Win/338 Win. List price was the same for STD calibres and both H&H chamberings. So used prices on the 300 H&H and especially the 375 are interesting to say the least. I reckon if Winchester introduced a 300 H&H, just like the 375 and same pricing they would see plenty and a lot if profit as those rifles have Winchester's crappy No 1 wood and costs more than a Super Grade. If I had the money to get a real top end wood/blue gun like from D'Arcy Echols I would have a hard time, real hard, deciding from the 270, 300 H&H or 375 H&H. The 300 H&H just might win the day.
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Posts: 704 |
Starman,
Interesting those Pre 64 prices. Compared to the standard M70 the Super Grade is a much bigger increase in price today.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
So used prices on the 300 H&H and especially the 375
are interesting to say the least.
Current collector type prices for a long discontinued model have no relevance to what Winchester charged at the time of production. Regarding an Echols Classic in H&H, D'Arcy prefers to convert a regular pre-64 270 or .30-06 action for such [to his standards], coz Win. didn't do a great job of it. extract from: 'Kenya Guns and Days' -Finn Aagaard![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/YCgW4Fmy/IMG-20210209-112716.jpg)
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
If I had the money to get a real top end wood/blue gun like from D'Arcy Echols I would have a hard time, real hard, deciding from the 270, 300 H&H or 375 H&H. The 300 H&H just might win the day.
An aquantance had two Pre-war pre-64s restocked .300hh and .375hh, nice rigs but not what I would want to lug around... The same in magnum Mauser configuration with all the Safari features are even heavier. a STD cal. Echols between .270 and 338-06 that's lighter to carry / faster to swing more my cup of tea. but still a bit full bodied for my liking. - Ralf Martini can build a great trim rifle for the bush.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,243
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,243 |
We all have to be on some kind of esp connective wavelength, came in last night, stoked up the fireplace stove, washed up, had a hot supper, poured up 64 Drams 16 year Glenmorangie, went to the safe and got out my pre-64's in 300 and 375 H&H, the 300 wears a Lyman receiver peep and fires 220gr partitions at 2750 fps over H-4831, the 375 wears a 1.5-5 Leupold in QD rings and fires 300gr partitions gr 2680 and and bbw #13 solids at 2700 over RL-17, cleaned scope with lenspen, gave em both a good wipedown with a lightly oiled rag using Lucas Extreme, worked the bolts, shouldered and pointed, fine old rifles, I like em both.
Trump Won!
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 808
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 808 |
So another relatively good is 375 a bigbore thread. We got the usual references on both sides. The majority of international gun sites, refer to is as a bigbore Guns international call it a smallbore, which probably hasnt been seen since the blackpowder bore gun era. Samuel white Baker used to call anything under 577 BP a nice smallbore. We got guys like Jack Lott and Boddington intimating or directly referrinng to it as both a bigbore and medium whenever it suits them. We have people who can look at the above and agree its down to personal opinion, what a gunwriter is feeling at the time, the direction the wind is blowing. We also of course have people who stick to one side of the argument, even quoting writers to make their point, when the writers themselves call it both things. Also earnest thanks to Starman and others for the articles posted, always a great read. Another suggestion would be a bigbore article thread. I dont have many links. One I have been chasing is Ross Seyfrieds first 585 nyati article. if anyone can oblige on that, much appreciated.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,895
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,895 |
To me, .375 is medium bore, big bore starts at .40-.41 or bigger. That’s just my opinion. I do love my 375’s as well as my .416 RM.
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