Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Firearms and Cartridges that have to go

I know. It's been talked about before, but you gotta shake the sugar tree every once in a while.

This is my list of stuff that just has to go.

1. 308 Win - They aren't particularly accurate, and not as powerful as real 30 cals, but hey, they ARE incredibly mediocre!

Think 6.5s. Think Carcano or a Creedmoor! Jebus! Don't believe what they say about the Secret Service accidentally shooting Kennedy with an M16 from the car directly behind his limo! I want a 6.5mm magic bullet when I'm hunting! They're proven. And a proof is a proof because it's proven!



And look, they were imported from Italy. In other words, European! You know, like Zeisses and S&Bees. The stocks are made of wood. The mechanism has no pot metal or plastic. It's win-win!

2. The 300 and 303 Savage, and Model 99s generally. They all look strange...like a proboscis monkey watching you constantly at hunt camp. Besides, who wants to go to Borneo anyway?



3. 220 Swift (Cause frankly, it ain't no more) - Fart into the wind!

4. Any surviving WSMs or WSSMs (What were they thinking? No wonder Winchester went into a huge nose dive!)

5. Any 257. (They are expensive. The bullets are strange - neither fish nor foul. The cartridges are hard to find, and we have the 6.5 CM. Just be done with them.)

6. All the 35 calibres (Jebbus! I mean...Jebbus!)

7. All rimfires except for the 22LR (It's like arguing for a smaller willy!)



8. And while we're cleaning the closet, toss those 410s and 28 gauges. Can you imagine? Oh no, coach. I don't wanna play hockey! That's just yucky and sweaty. UGH! I wanna take Home Ec! They teach sewing!



Thanks for your kind attention. Now, here's Pam Tillis Shakin' the Sugar Tree.

if'n i didn't know better Steve i would say you have been into the extract !

It just needed to be said. There are others.

1. The 22 Hornet, but not the 22 K-Hornet. It was like they harvested the Hornet cartridge before it fully ripened.

2. Firearms made in Japan. $1300 Model 94s!!??!! Swords maybe...

3. The 6mm Remington, unless it's a 6mm Remington Creedmoor.

4. 8mms. There's something not right about loading a .323 bullet in a metric calibre. Heck, what's a .323 bullet?!?

funny you should mention the 8mm Steve, i just stumbled over a box of hornady's in the gun room. maybe it's the extract i have been in that caused the stumble. but anyway, my neighbor shoots wolves with the 8mm so we have to keep it. but we can get rid of the .318
am surprised you haven't mentioned the 32winspcl.

Oh lord, there are so many cartridges that should be tossed. It would take a while to compose a proper list.

Savage 99?....220 Swift? Steve, did you bump your head? 😂

You forgot the .303 British.😜

I think we should also delete Compact Magnums, Ultra Magnums, Nosler cartridges, Lazzeronis and a lot of lever rifle cartridges. deerstalker mentioned the 32 Special, but I would add any rimfire Henrys, and Mauser cartridges. They lost a few wars using them, so their effectiveness is obviously lacking.

The 303 British should be re-introduced, but with 308 diameter bullets and 20 degree shoulders. There are so many 308 bullets available. The 30-40 should be done away with. It's a copy of the 303 British anyway.

Rimmed is better than rimless. They are also more useful. Progress has made the mechanisms better. The extraction systems work more efficiently with something to grab onto. It's 2021, not 1921!

delete

i think Steve is in the sause or the cabin fever done got to him

Really! Who puts a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action? But as far as the 308 not being accurate, you've never been to Camp Perry. You know, the place where civilians shoot semi auto rifles with 20rd magazines at 600 yds...

Mosin Nagants. Lee Enfields. M70s. Rem 700s. Mausers. The rimmed case is far superior and more reliable than any of the so called rimless cartridges.

The 308 was a failure. They hoped that it would replace the 30-06 and make them rich. It didn't. What a horrible mistake! It was only used for a short time by some of the world's militaries before the generals were embarrassed into replacing it. But the countries that mistakenly adopted it saved face. They dumped it in favour of a better, more accurate cartridges.

And what of the US ammunition companies? They invested heavily in it, hoping that lucrative govt contracts would make them rich. It didn't. They ran toward 223/556, the 6.5 CM, assorted magnums and assorted other AR cartridges, hoping to rid themselves of the shame. That didn't work either.

The USRAC/Winchester/short magnum mess was what happened when one company got caught with their pants down, thinking that 308 would make them rich. They realized their mistake too late. They even tried saving face with the 307 Win. Oh dear, not a good idea! Consumers had already ran away in droves. It was too late to lure them back. Then, the Win 94s disappeared. Winchester was a shadow of its former self

Then came the Japanese 94s!?! Oh the shame of it!

The 5.56 NATO, 7.63x39, 5.56x39, and even the 7.62x54r outclassed it. So much so, that the 7.62x54r is still used by many of the world's militaries as a sniper and interdiction rifle. Now there's talk of the 6.5 CM as a military replacement. It's too soon however. The government has to spend a few billion more before they make the call.

The fire continues to live in the 1950s. But it's a comfort.

Sorry, go to Connaught and use a 303 at 1000 yd. And certainly, partake of the Ottawa nightlife while you're there.

Chimo! Prost!

Yet, the Canadian Rangers just adopted a new rifle in 308...go figure... I guess this makes the FN FAL a failure, too? Not to mention all the cartridges of which the 308 is the daddy--243, 260, 7-08, 338Fed, 358Win...

Yes, the Rangers are already complaining about it. You cannot blame them. It just goes to show you that politicians, not users, chose the cartridge!

The 308 allowed for shorter receivers in rifles over the 30-06, the 8mm Mauser, or the 303. Bolt action hunting rifles in shorter actions are lighter to carry around all day. I have a 308 Ruger that cloverleafs at 100 yards. Plenty good for all North American game. A 358, based on the 308 case can be good for Moose and Brown bear.

Just wondering, are you hunting or trying to kill people?

The paying public has all but eliminated all redundant calibers. For instance the 44-40, the 35 Remington, and a slew of smaller calibers, like 222, 307 rimmed for lever actions, 375 Winchester, 8mm Magnum, 358 Norma Magnum, etc. Still around but ammo is hard to find.

No, the 308 was a poor attempt by one man to curry favour with the royal family. It was vanity and greed that inspired what was first known as the 303 Chichester. Like a lot of things the British did, it was silly idea.

Sir Robert "Poncy" Chichester came up with the idea of using rimless cartridges late in the 19th century. He felt that with the war going on (the Boer War), measures needed to be taken to reduce waste, streamline the manufacturing process, and make him famous. The 303 British was already successful, but politicians being the lawyers that they are, he thought he could improve upon what engineers and designers had already done.



Queen Victoria

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife!
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you!
---

Chichester was a vain man. He was also cheap. He had the British Ministry of Armaments create a new rifle cartridge similar to the 7x57 Mauser (That disgusting Teutonic design! Chichester, 1898), which was quite popular at the time. He wanted something that had Prussian roots, which would please her Majesty, Queen Victoria (or "Fat Vickie", as the anti-monarchist movement called her at the time). It was completely self serving.

So you understand, prior to World War I, the British monarchy wasn't really British. Their last name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. They were German. It wasn't until WWI when they changed their last name to Windsor. Hey, you're fighting the relatives! Since the British were fighting the Huns, it wasn't good to have a queen and royal family with close German ties. As well, if you check your history books, you will find that royals did not like to breed with common folk, so they often married close relatives. For example, Queen Victoria married her first cousin, Prince Albert Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, who was born in Germany. But enough with the inbred history primer. It makes me queasy.

Sir Poncy thought that he could win the favour of the Queen if he came up with a cartridge that he could state "...was inspired by your Majesty's most glorious homeland - Germany!" He might even get a lordship out of the deal. At the very least, he would become a powerful force in British political and social circles.

In late 1899 or early 1900, he had them remove the rim of a 303 British cartridge and "give it shoulders."

"Why do you want to do that, sir?" a puzzled engineer asked.

"Because the 303 is too fat. Something that will bear my name must have handsome shoulders! Do it!" And he struck the engineer with his riding crop.

The engineer obeyed immediately, of course. The Brits loved to be ordered around and abused by the aristocracy and knights and other persons of authority.

When they eliminated the rim and changed the shoulder angle, the cartridge would not chamber. Today we would probably say, "Duh!", but you have to remember that this was back in the early days of cartridge rifle firearms design. As well, they were British. While they meant well, they weren't particularly bright. It's been suggested that the English have a very shallow gene pool.

So our hapless engineer was stuck, until a lowly custodian suggested making the cartridge skinnier - which they did.

For me, this is the funny part. The day of the first (and only) cartridge trial, Sir Poncy insisted that he be the one to fire it. After all, he claimed, it was my idea! Vanity would be his undoing, but it saved the life of an innocent staffer.

Sir Poncy was never trained in the use of weapons, so he needed assistance from the engineering staff to use the rifle. The reduced size of the case allowed everything to slide into the chamber. As Sir Poncy closed Emily's (MLE*) action, his last words were,

"It feels a bit tight."

When he squeezed the trigger, the action exploded and Sir Poncy was killed instantly. The first casuality of the 303 Chichester was Sir Poncy himself!

Embarrassed, the engineering staff and underlings took the drawings and associated material and hid them away in a vault. Shortly after WWI, American spies stole the plans for the 303 Chichester, which was smuggled to the US.

A few years passed. The Americans had better trained, more talented designers. The 303 Chichester became the 300 Savage. It was marketed as an improvement on the 303 Savage. Like the 30-40 Krag, the 303 Savage was a copy of the 303 British. They wanted something American made. It wasn't actually, but the Brits never complained.

And now you know...the best of the story!

* Magazine Lee Enfield. Emily was its nickname
---


Dedicated to Queen Victoria

Never Make a Pretty Woman Your Wife!

Earlier in the week, despite having a 30-303, I ordered a 7.62x54r barrel. It will have a 308 diameter barrel to take advantage of the large quantity of 308 bullets. It is stainless, 26 inches long and features a superior rimmed case. I am told that due to the pandemic, it will probably not arrive until late summer.

Bol'shoye spasibo!

How about we delete Winter first then discuss cartridges. 😜

Works for me!

"Ottawa nightlife", you mean Hull, right?

It all depends what you're after.

Oh my Steve. I am petty sure you should hide right now. The guys from the funny farm have already left the barn and drove out to look for you. Good luck my fine feathered friend. Be Well, RZ.

Someone has to look out for hunters and shooters.

Before you know it, companies like Remington and Winchester will try to make us buy things we don't want or need like WSMs, WSSMs, SAUMs, electronical primers and rimless cartridges. The rimless cartridges won't be around much longer.

Before you know it, they will be just another failed industry idea.

Can't say I agree with much that the OP espouses except the rimmed ctgs. (Those rimless things were invented so that machine guns could work better and we all know where THAT went!).

I always thought that the US should have started with the Remington-Lee box magazine rifle and the .30-40 ctg, (both American inventions). The funky Krag magazine was a mistake, although the rest of the Krag was OK; better than its reputation.

Winchester should just have adopted the Improved .22 WCF w/smokeless and jacketed bullets and skipped the Hornet altogether. No need for Mr. Kilbourne at all--it was already covered.

I've always wondered WHAT the original 1885 blackpowder Hi-wall .22 WCFs were used for? Barrel cleaning practice???? Weight training???

Rimmed cartridges will come into their own if Boy Blunder continues with increasing restrictions and we only have doubles with extractors...

Long live the 218 Bee ;-)

It's they only ammo that is still on the shelves!

I sold all my 380 the other day, with the sub compact 9mms out today, just don't see the need for it. Plus its a unicorn down here now, haven't seen any in months and months, 9mm is still obtainable.

Thanks for all the responses! For those of you who do not mind single shots, you might have to get one so you can order the barrels you need - like the 218 Bee and others! Great choice. I don't have a Bee, but have a 17 Hornet and a 22 K Hornet.



Yeah, the 380 is a has been too. If I was purchasing another handgun, I would get a 44 Special. All the power of a 45ACP , but with a rim.

Only a d*ck goes after the Swift... not cool bro, not cool...

I got rid of my 220 Swifts. A strange, odd smelling cartridge that some guy from Montana says is cool. I had 18 of them, but they had to go.

I replaced them with a 225 Winchester. Much cooler, and I did a better job with fitting and rifle twist than Winchester did. Winchester was an okay company once upon a time, but lost their way with all those silly short and super short magnums. No more American made, affordable Model 94s, etc.

A moment of silence please for the passing of a once proud company.

Okay, here's my Stevens 200 (Savage Model 10), AT-One restocked 225 Win. The stock fit was almost perfect out of the box. I did some minor fitting, but that's to be expected of any aftermarket product. It has an MGM (Preferred Barrel Blanks actually) 1 in 9 twist, not the slower, 1 in 14 factory spin.