Good bud headed to Africa for buff. Has M-70 .416 Rem. PH recommends solid, soft, solid combo.
I'm suggesting the 400 CEB Sold that gunner500 likes, but they're back ordered.
Those bullets aren't easy to find. Another bud killed a nice 41" buff in Zim, one shot with a .416 Rigby and 400 TSX. Bullet went thru 50" of animal at an angle, one shot kill, but traveled a piece.
Question. What soft would you recommend? I've heard that Horn DGX and DGS may not be the best.
If it was my choice I'd probably go with the 400 gr. CEB solid followed by a 400 gr. TSX Not sure if the TSX would qualify as a "solt", but I know it's a killer.
Have seen buffalo taken with .416 "softs" including the 400-grain Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. All penetrated at LEAST 50" on angling shots, and retained at least 90% of their weight.
If I were going to hunt buffalo again, would probably choose the Swift Break-Away, as it feeds very well, and results more tissue damage than conventional solids. But am also skeptical about the still-advised soft-then-solids advice from many PH's, because today's "softs" penetrate so well, and are more effective.
Might add that the PH I know best, and has the most experience with buffalo, has the same opinion about the soft-solid tradition. He's now retired, and grew up when solids-only was the rule. But then he culled hundreds of buffalo in what was then Rhodesia with the original lathe-turned Nosler Partitions and changed his mind--and they were 180s from a .30-06. They weren't shot at night with head-shots, but during daylight when herds were driven toward him.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I used a 400 gr A-Frame out of my .416 Rigby with 400 GR Barnes Banded Solids in the magazine. I was hunting herd buffalo in coastal Mozambique and the PH did not want me using TSXs in case of a pass through wounding another animal. A-Frames seem to be very popular with the PHs. If I do it again I will use 400 gr Partitions with Banded solids in the magazine.
My bud would love to use the NPT or A-Frame, likes them both, has used them in other calibers, but they are scarce.
Reportedly PH’s not a gun guy. So he’s probably going with conventional thinking. If my friend shows up with a reasonable solution, he’s sure PH will go along. They’ll be communicating.
A bunch of PHs are not gun guys, believe it or not. Partly this can be due to handloading being restricted in some places. In other instances it's due to passed-down "knowledge," as with many American hunters.
Dunno what to say about the shortage, except he may have to buy some "black market" bullets. I am old enough to still remember when Nosler quit making .375 Partitions for a while, after switching to impact-extrusion in the late 1970s--and their presses then couldn't handle anting over .338 caliber. The lathe-turned .375 Partitions were going for several bucks apiece--which is a major reason why Lee Reid developed Swift A-Frames.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
The 350 gr TSX worked fine for me in Zimbabwe via 416 Rem M70 and will be what I use when I return. My PH was more than pleased asking upon my arrival. He was using a custom 416 Rigby though with the 400 gr TSX.
With my purchase tonite, we're gonna have 400 gr. Swift Break Away solids and 400 gr. NPT's loaded for the .416 Rem. M-70.
And, if the PH insists on alternating solids with softs, these will work. No A-Frames to be had, Graf and son had only one box of these Swift solids and 3 boxes of 400 gr. NPT's. So, it didn't take me long to pull the trigger. I had CEB 400 gr. Solids on B.O, but canceled it. Should be good to go with these and grateful I found them.
It can get a bit scary, looking for certain bullets. Glad I have a good supply of primers and powder.
I know you are all set, but this is my thinking also.
Originally Posted by EdM
The 350 gr TSX worked fine for me in Zimbabwe via 416 Rem M70 and will be what I use when I return. My PH was more than pleased asking upon my arrival. He was using a custom 416 Rigby though with the 400 gr TSX.
I used a 400gr TSX out of 404 Jeffery on my one and only buffalo. That rifle went down the road.
I now have a 416 Remington, and if I make it back for buffalo, I will use the 350gr TSX. Planning on getting out to shoot the 416 for the first time this weekend.
If it was me, I would sure consider the 350 TSX. Not wanting to get too far off the reservation, I’m thinking he will stick with 400’s. Especially after I spent a good chunk of his money getting set up.
I knew you were already set up. Just throwing my two cents in. But I would go soft in the chamber, then soft, soft, solid in the magazine. If he does his job, he will never get to the solid. And if he gets to the solid, he probably needs it.
I've got a line on some Swift Break Away .400 gr. for $5+ or so a pop.
What's the story on those? At that price, they gotta be good....
DF
Edited to add, Graf and sons had only one box, so I ordered it. And, they were cheaper than others.
I had to look, the loaded ammo with the Swift solids is $9.40/each. Wouldn't be doing much practicing with those- get your rifle dialed in and then find some cheap stuff for practice.
Last couple of trips I took to South Africa I asked the PH's what they used for backup and ammo. Both of them had a hodge-podge of bullet/brand types in their ammo belts. It was almost like they used whatever the previous client left them.
I like the Barnes TSX; they are expanding solids actually.
I have killed 5 buffalo with one shot each using the 375 with the 270 TSX. Am going to the 416 but loading it to 450/400 3” power levels. Why? Just because I want to. Pretty difficult to improve upon the results of that 375 load. But will be using the 350 TSX.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”. Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
I think the bullets you purchased are a great choice and hope you find a couple of loads that shoot to the same point of aim with both the solids and the softs, The only time I shot a buffalo with a solid was to finish one off for my wife which she had put 8 375 TBBC bullets into. All 8 were in the kill zone but it was still trying to get up so a solid 470 ended it.
You don't need solids for buffalo and I see that a lot of folks here have said so. The Hornady DGS is an outstanding solid as are the re-engineered DGX BONDED softs. That said, shoot the one your rifle likes best. If I were going today with a 416, no doubt in my mind I'd go with the 350TSX and nothing more. Nothing wrong with Partitions either, except my rifle does not like them (NPs have been the most inaccurate bullets across the caliber spectrum I've ever used, but when they shoot I use them)
I shot two buffs with a 400gr AFrame because my rifle liked them and I had not experimented with TSXs back then.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I don't have any experience with the 416 Remington (in my view the most sensible of all the 416s), but I've used both UMR and H4350 in my Rigby with great success, then again those larger bores are very forgiving.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I have those powders. I've also heard that Big Game is good in the .375 H&H, which is another RL-15 popular round. Seems the old H&H uses similar burn rate powders recommended for the .416 Rem.
Hope those Swift and Nosler bullets hit pretty close to the same POI. I'm gonna have to do some good guessing, as shooting multiple combos with $6 bullets many not be that productive...
Probably work up loads with the Partition, shoot a few Swift solids just to check POI, then load ammo for Africa.
Dirtfarmer, it sounds like you have plenty of experience, so whatever you come up with should be good enough for your buddy. Those Nosler Partitions should do great.
I've played around with a bunch of bullets and powders out of my .416 Rem, both solids and softs. I ended up using the 400 gr. A-Frames for softs. My backup was the 350gr. TSX and I'm sure that would have worked just fine, but I prefer the bonded lead bullets and the A-Frames have an excellent reputation in Africa. I did mess around some with the 400 gr. TSX, but that bullet was a tad too long and the velocity, of course, was reduced. For solids, I preferred the old North Fork solid. Not sure if they are available now or not, but I'm sure the Swift solid you just purchased should do the trick.
As for powders, RL-15 was the best for both the 416 and 375, in my experience. I did use IMR-4064 some and that did OK as well.
By the way, my PH in Zim had the same philosophy, i.e. load a soft up the pipe and fill the mag with solids. Not really what I would have done, but he was the boss so I listened.
I will hook up with Bill at Swift next week just to see what he says.
Varget may be the most temp stable of those disucssed, H-4895, may be as good. Big Game is reportedly pretty temp stable for a ball powder, RL-15 probably the least..
Thinking about few loads with RL-15, BG, Varget and H-4895 with the NPT's and see how they do. I'm gonna try for 2,350 fps or so, not push the envelop. I'll shoot a few solids with the best NPT load and check POI.
R15 has long been my go to powder in the 416 Rem. Tried Varget but it wasn’t as accurate so have stayed with R15. Your bullet choices are fine but I’d personally use a 350 TSX. I’ve never hunted with a PH that didn’t love them.
I couldn't log in today DF, reason for the pic and text, great, you got a handle on it, always remember, if in need, bounce a rock off my doghouse, I can hook a Brutha up.
Sounds like you're set. The bullets you chose should be fine. I would be tempted to try the Woodleigh,s both Weldcore and the Hydrostatically stabilized bullet as it may be more disruptive than a conventional solid. The Weldcore is a good choice for herd situations as an on the shoulder shot will usually stop on the hide on the off side. You can order directly from them so should be available.
R-16 is showing promise in the 375 H&H for me, might work well in the 416. Top velocities and temperature stable. A little faster speeds than R-15 which was my previous go to.
Not a major issue but if you find accuracy a grain or so below max I would stay there. Always good to have a margin of error for hot weather shooting. Full length size each case for the same reason and cycle all of them through the action.
I would get some Hornadays or the ACP for load work up till you do the final load tuning.
If it was up to me, I’d be looking at the 350 TSX. Too many report good results with that bullet.
But trying to stay on the reservation. PH says 400’s, we doing 400’s. He wants softs and solids, we doing softs and solids. I think our choice of both, considering the shortages, are about the best we could do under the circumstances.
My bud’s a good hunter and an excellence marksman. He’ll make it work.
Late to the conversation, but I'll add another recommendation for A-Frames. I used a Remington factory load of a 400 grn A-Frame on a head-on shot at 80 yards. The Bull stubbled backwards and then went down. The bullet was recovered in the intestines with a perfect mushroom.
Now, I feel good about getting ordinance ready to bag a buff.
Have those new, fancy breakaway, Swift 400 gr. solids, 400 gr. NPT’s and 400 gr. A-Frames for the softs.
Plan on trying RL-15 and IMR-4064, both have good track records with 400’s in the .416 Rem. Don’t have enough bullets or time to try too many combos. Those should work.
Glad to be able to help. Forgot to ask. You have Swift load data? I have book data for the A-frames but not the solids.
Granted, Bill at Swift can tell you what to use for same POI I’m sure.
Would appreciate any data. But, will check in with Bill next week.
These new Swift solids have a shorter driving band than old style solids, so they may shoot more like a soft.
Reportedly a lot of thought and effort went into the design and manufacture of those bullets. Could be why they're nearly $6 each. Glad it was my buds money I was spending...
Dirt: Try Alliant 2000-MR powder. I shot 4 buffalo with the 4000 grain Swift A frame. No need for solids. All one shot per buffalo.
I've heard too many success stories with NPT, A-Frame and TSX (350 gr. and 400 gr.) buff kills without issue. But, the PH wants 400 gr. solids and 400 gr. softs, so that what we're loading. We're trying to stay on the reservation. PH has an excellent reputation, but evidently isn't much of a gun guy. Reportedly many aren't. They know their craft and what works, end of story.
I have a can of PP 2000 MR and was looking at it as well as CFE-223, which some say is close, maybe the same powder. IMR 4320 and Leverevolution are pretty close regarding burn rate, 4064 not that far off. I've heard Big Game works well in the .375 H&H and generally what's good for the old H&H is good for the .416 Rem.
With limited time and limited components, I may not be able to do a full work up like I would with another round. And, even with a standing bench, a range session with a big gun has it's own rewards. And I get stuck with the bench work, bud just wants to shoot critters. He thinks I'm better at the bench, but he for sure is a better shot out in the field. Different skill sets, no doubt. I had worked up a 7RM load, 160 NAB over RL-26, which he calls his "magic load". It really did a job on PG a couple of years ago. He even saved the emplies, wants me to reduplicate that load. I have plenty of primed brass just like he took to Africa, but I'll reload those cases...
Tomorrow, I'm going to call Bill at Swift and see what loads he suggests for their new Swift solid and their A-Frame to have the same POI or at least pretty close. If he sugests RL-15, 4064 or 4320, I'll probably go with his suggestion. I do have all the powders mentioned. RL-15 has been such a classic for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if that's his choice. I think there are newer, more temp stable powders in that burn rate range, but that's another issue.
I wanted to add that JB, IIRC, said the newer versions of RL-15 are pretty temp stable, made to military specs.
My can is 20 yrs old; I don't use a lot of RL-15. But, it's been in a climate controlled shop its entire life, so it should be OK. It looks good and smells good. I think it'll shoot good, assuming that's what Bill at Swift suggests. We'll see and I'll report.
Had a nice visit with Bill at Swift. Very knowledgeable. I heard the story of their development of the Breakaway Solids. Interesting.
They use 4064 powder with Fed 215 primers. His instructions were to work up a 50 yd. load with the 400 A-Frames, loading three at 73 gr, three at 74 gr. three at 75 gr., using a chrono. To do that, I'll have to use my std. bench, not the standing one. As previously posted, my Magnetospeed is set up free standing, needs a longer bench. Bill says to use a bag of shot to buffer recoil. Their factory A-Frame ammo has 75 gr. 4064 at 2,340 fps. 3.510" COAL.
THEN, he said, load a few Breakaway Solids. He said the left to right deviation will be minimal, what we're now doing is bringing the vertical with the solids in line with the A-Frames. Their .416 Rem Breakaway solid load is 77 gr. 4064, 3.570" COAL. He said to seat the solid with the driving band inside the case neck such that the crimp can fold over the driving band. They like the Lee Factory Crimp die as do I.
He has Varget, H-4895 and IMR-4895 load data, but prefers 4064, no mention of RL-15. Evidently the 4064 loads are not compressed, running around 95% case fill.
So, with that info, I'm ready to begin load development once my bullets and cases arrive. Just remembered, Bill said to start with a fouled barrel, not one all clean and oiled.
Forgot to add, Bill said most PH's were FOS regarding solids and softs. We discussed their preference for alternating softs and solids. Bill likes to load his gun with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. If a bull runs, he loads solids, does not use them initially. He likes solids for a "Texas heart shot", bull running away, or a full head on charge.
He said an A-Frame will transverse a buff, often stopping under the hide on the far side. For herd animals, that keeps others from getting hit. Once the herd breaks away from the shot animal, it's solid time.
Bill, for sure is a gun guy. Most PH's aren't. They know their craft, but don't keep up with the latest technology regarding bullets and loads, tend to go with hand me down, traditional info on bullets and ammo.
DF
Edited to add, Bill said he likes to line up his shot on the shoulder, about 25-30% up from the bottom, said their heart sits lower in the chest than other BG. That way, you're gonna hit at least one shoulder, and take out the big vessels over the heart, or the heart itself. They don't run far hit like that.
I'll be interested to see where you end up with the A Frames and 4064. The Enduron 4166 is the updated version and you may want to give that a try for the long term if you have any on hand. IMR has some data for 4064 and 4166 with a 400 gr Hornady which could be a starting point when used together with the chronograph. Last summer there were several offers for 416 brass and I would be surprised if the all sold. I'll PM you on one that I didn't follow up on. I know my 416 is not much fun from the bench. Who is doing the bench work - you or your friend?
DF, glad you had a good visit with Bill and got some really good info sounds like. Don’t sound like you’ll need to fire off a lot of rounds for load development.
Don’t know if you gathered, he’s the HMFIC at Swift.
I'll be interested to see where you end up with the A Frames and 4064. The Enduron 4166 is the updated version and you may want to give that a try for the long term if you have any on hand. IMR has some data for 4064 and 4166 with a 400 gr Hornady which could be a starting point when used together with the chronograph. Last summer there were several offers for 416 brass and I would be surprised if the all sold. I'll PM you on one that I didn't follow up on. I know my 416 is not much fun from the bench. Who is doing the bench work - you or your friend?
I have 4166, may load a few with that one. I'll compare data for a starting load.
Good idea.
BTW, he "lets" me do the bench work, he shoots the critters...
DF, glad you had a good visit with Bill and got some really good info sounds like. Don’t sound like you’ll need to fire off a lot of rounds for load development.
Don’t know if you gathered, he’s the HMFIC at Swift.
Didn't realize that, although he obviously was very knowledgeable. He answered the phone on about the second ring.
I told him I had developed 160 NAB loads for my bud's 7RM Sendero over RL-26, used very successfully on a PG hunt. "He should have used Scirocco's". I told him bud was a big NAB fan, but for my fast twist .22-204, I used 75 gr. Scirocco's and I let him know how well they whacked hogs. He liked that.
I think I casually mentioned that I have some .416 400 NPT's on the way.
He wasn't too generous concerning the competition. I didn't mention Partitions or such any more....
I was looking for Swift bullet info, not trying to pizz him off....
From then on, it was all A-Frames and Breakaway Solids... We talked for a while. He was in no hurry to get me off the line. I enjoyed the visit. He was very generous with both his time and his knowledge.
I'll see if I can dig up some load data tonight after I get home to share with you tomorrow.
By the way, before I left for Africa, I took 4 rounds of my selected A-frame loads and set them in the sun on the dash of my truck on a 90F+ day and let them bake there for about 30 minutes. To say these rounds were hot, would be an understatement. I could barely hold them to load them into the magazine. Then I fired them to see if I saw any signs of pressure. All was good, so I had no worries when things heated up in Africa. I realize this was not a scientific experiment, that the rifle itself acted as a bit of a heat sink and I did not actually measure the temperature of the rounds, but at least it lifted one worry from my mind.
I'll see if I can dig up some load data tonight after I get home to share with you tomorrow.
By the way, before I left for Africa, I took 4 rounds of my selected A-frame loads and set them in the sun on the dash of my truck on a 90F+ day and let them bake there for about 30 minutes. To say these rounds were hot, would be an understatement. I could barely hold them to load them into the magazine. Then I fired them to see if I saw any signs of pressure. All was good, so I had no worries when things heated up in Africa. I realize this was not a scientific experiment, that the rifle itself acted as a bit of a heat sink and I did not actually measure the temperature of the rounds, but at least it lifted one worry from my mind.
I'll see if I can dig up some load data tonight after I get home to share with you tomorrow.
By the way, before I left for Africa, I took 4 rounds of my selected A-frame loads and set them in the sun on the dash of my truck on a 90F+ day and let them bake there for about 30 minutes. To say these rounds were hot, would be an understatement. I could barely hold them to load them into the magazine. Then I fired them to see if I saw any signs of pressure. All was good, so I had no worries when things heated up in Africa. I realize this was not a scientific experiment, that the rifle itself acted as a bit of a heat sink and I did not actually measure the temperature of the rounds, but at least it lifted one worry from my mind.
Swift A-Frame ammo?
DF
If so, we now know they’re loaded with IMR-4064.
I’ve searched around on the web, not extensive, but have read reports where 4166 didn’t prove as accurate as 4064. Some say it’s as accurate. 4166 has decoppering agents, which may be of benefit. It may be more temp stable, but evidently 4064 isn’t that bad.
In my current situation, I think I’m going with Bill’s protocol using 4064. If they use it in their Swift A-Frame ammo, it’s good enough for me.
Their Breakaway Solids cost around $5.80 each. That’s right, each bullet. Reportedly a loaded Swift round cost nearly ten bucks. Glad I’m a hand loader. I hope those solids are as good as they say. They better be at that price.
Dirt, yes, the high temperature exposed tests that I ran was with Swift A-frame bullets. However, they were handloads, not loaded factory ammo.
I checked my reloading info, and I was using 79gr. of RL15 with the 400gr. Swift A-Frame. For solids, I used the Northfork flat point solid and bumped the powder up to 80gr. for that. I know you're most likely going with 4064, so that info probably doesn't help. I did a lot of work with 4064 in the .416 Rem, but I was using the 370 gr. (I think) Northfork soft point for that work. I was never able to get consistent accuracy with the NF soft, so abandoned that and went with the Swift A-frame. Looking back, I'm amazed and how much $ I spent trying to make the NF bullet work for me. Lots of rounds downrange!
By the way, in case you didn't already have the info, my old (#1) Swift reloading manual shows a maximum load of 78 gr. of IMR4064 for the 400 gr. A-frame at 2409 fps and says that it is at 96% load density.
I'm trying to take the path of least resistance, getting to an end product with min resources and the least amount of time getting battered on a sitting bench by a big gun.
I think going with Bill's protocol makes the most sense. I even thought about loading his factory data and going to the range, which would be exactly what I would have, buying his loaded ammo. But, I'll do as he said.
Dirt, yes, the high temperature exposed tests that I ran was with Swift A-frame bullets. However, they were handloads, not loaded factory ammo.
I checked my reloading info, and I was using 79gr. of RL15 with the 400gr. Swift A-Frame. For solids, I used the Northfork flat point solid and bumped the powder up to 80gr. for that. I know you're most likely going with 4064, so that info probably doesn't help. I did a lot of work with 4064 in the .416 Rem, but I was using the 370 gr. (I think) Northfork soft point for that work. I was never able to get consistent accuracy with the NF soft, so abandoned that and went with the Swift A-frame. Looking back, I'm amazed and how much $ I spent trying to make the NF bullet work for me. Lots of rounds downrange!
By the way, in case you didn't already have the info, my old (#1) Swift reloading manual shows a maximum load of 78 gr. of IMR4064 for the 400 gr. A-frame at 2409 fps and says that it is at 96% load density.
Interesting accuracy report, NF vs. SAF... I'm curious now, accuracy: NPT vs SAF. Guess I may get a chance to find out. I think terminal performance should be pretty close. If the Partition out shoots the A-Frame, I will report. If so, I hope Bill doesn't read about it....
I'm surprised that he didn't have RL-15 in his load data. Seemed he included about everything but RL-15. RL-15 has sorta been the gold standard for the .375 H&H for years, and generally what works well in the .375 H&H, works well in the .416 Rem. He's using IMR 4064 in his loaded ammo. So, in their testing, 4064 must have come out on top. I'm not gonna try to re-invent that wheel. I have a full, older can of 4064 that I'm going to start with; powder looks good, smells good. Will load Africa ammo from a newer can. Not sure it's better, just newer.
Yes, it is interesting that they are using 4064 in their factory loads. Who knows what the real reason or deciding factor might have been? It could have come down to price, availability or something else. Their load data shows 79 gr. of RL15 being the max load at 2430 fps. Interestingly, they show Varget as being the most accurate powder listed. Max load for Varget is 77.5 gr. at 2386 fps. H4895 is right behind Varget at 2376 fps.
I've never fired a factory loaded round from my 416, just handloads. However, I never did try the Nosler Partition in it. I'm definitely interested in hearing how the NPT and SAF compare in your trials.
Yes, it is interesting that they are using 4064 in their factory loads. Who knows what the real reason or deciding factor might have been? It could have come down to price, availability or something else. Their load data shows 79 gr. of RL15 being the max load at 2430 fps. Interestingly, they show Varget as being the most accurate powder listed. Max load for Varget is 77.5 gr. at 2386 fps. H4895 is right behind Varget at 2376 fps.
I've never fired a factory loaded round from my 416, just handloads. However, I never did try the Nosler Partition in it. I'm definitely interested in hearing how the NPT and SAF compare in your trials.
From what I've gathered, the terminal performance of the SAF and NPT are pretty close. I'd think which one seems to shoot better should be the one to go with.
My bud is more of a NPT fan, although he has successfully used the SAF out of his .338 Win Mag in Alaska. So, if the SAF seems to be the better shooter, I think he'd go with it without reservations.
Would like opinions and ideas on which one of those two you guys would pick, assuming equivalent accuracy...
I'd pick the A-frame as well, just because I've used it and trust it. No flies on the NPT, though, so I'm in agreement with you that whichever is the better shooter is the one to go with.
Whenever I start debating myself (in my head) about what bullet to use for buff, I recall an article, or maybe a book chapter, that Craig Boddington wrote many years ago where he talked about using Sierra Gamekings (I think) in the 375 H&H to take buffalo back when "premium" bullets were a rarity. So I figure, if GameKings will work and did work years ago, I shouldn't worry myself about whether to use a TSX, Partition, or A-frame too much. Put a bullet where it needs to go, and you should be able to kill them just fine.
Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.
I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.
How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?
Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.
I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.
How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?
DF
I would just shoot 350 grain TSX and forget the solids. But thats just me
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.
I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.
How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?
DF
I would just shoot 350 grain TSX and forget the solids. But thats just me
No argument from me. I’d probably do the same.
But give the parameters of solids and softs, I’m delivering what has been requested.
When I was in Africa, my PH wanted a soft in the chamber and solids in the magazine. I've had many other people tell me that they were given the same instruction by their PH. This is the "old school" way of thinking, I suppose, prior to the advent of really tough softs, but this was in 2007 when we had good, premium bullets. In any case, my PH did not care at all what my thinking was regarding using all soft points. He didn't care if they were TSX's or North Fork cup points, or wax! It was a single soft point and then all solids, no debate allowed. He later told me that his thinking on this was you only get one real good shot opportunity, on the first shot. After that, it was usually a rodeo and a guy would be very lucky to get another shot into the same buff. And, if he did get a second shot into him, that he wanted to break the animal down right now, so if you had a hip shot or Texas heart shot, etc, that a solid had more of a chance of penetrating where it might do some actual damage and stop the animal. He admitted that there were instances where a buff, upon getting hit well, might just stand there or take a few steps and stop, and in that case, another soft would do just fine. But, he liked to error on the side of caution and have a better chance of stopping the buff right now with a solid.
I will say that at one point we were trailing a buff that we thought had a limp or damage to one of his hind legs. When we caught up with him, we could see that he had been caught in a poacher's snare and was wounded. The government game scout gave us the OK to shoot him and not count him on our license or quota. So, my PH had me unload the soft and put all solids in because he wanted the bull to go down right now. I shot him in the shoulder and down he went. When we got to him, bubbles from his lungs were coming out the entrance hole. I was quite impressed with the performance of a single solid on a buffalo. Knocked him down right now and he was dead before we got up to him. Of course, there were no other buffalo with this lone bull, so there was no worry about pass-throughs wounding another animal.
By the way, I think your friends idea of cycling all of his rounds through his rifle and then loading solids is pretty ridiculous. I would think a PH would think the same thing. I'd want to continue shooting with whatever bullet I had loaded before the animals are gone. Then, if you want, you can load more ammo of whatever bullet you desire. But to stand there cycling ammo without firing makes no sense to me.
When I was in Africa, my PH wanted a soft in the chamber and solids in the magazine. I've had many other people tell me that they were given the same instruction by their PH. This is the "old school" way of thinking, I suppose, prior to the advent of really tough softs, but this was in 2007 when we had good, premium bullets. In any case, my PH did not care at all what my thinking was regarding using all soft points. He didn't care if they were TSX's or North Fork cup points, or wax! It was a single soft point and then all solids, no debate allowed. He later told me that his thinking on this was you only get one real good shot opportunity, on the first shot. After that, it was usually a rodeo and a guy would be very lucky to get another shot into the same buff. And, if he did get a second shot into him, that he wanted to break the animal down right now, so if you had a hip shot or Texas heart shot, etc, that a solid had more of a chance of penetrating where it might do some actual damage and stop the animal. He admitted that there were instances where a buff, upon getting hit well, might just stand there or take a few steps and stop, and in that case, another soft would do just fine. But, he liked to error on the side of caution and have a better chance of stopping the buff right now with a solid.
I will say that at one point we were trailing a buff that we thought had a limp or damage to one of his hind legs. When we caught up with him, we could see that he had been caught in a poacher's snare and was wounded. The government game scout gave us the OK to shoot him and not count him on our license or quota. So, my PH had me unload the soft and put all solids in because he wanted the bull to go down right now. I shot him in the shoulder and down he went. When we got to him, bubbles from his lungs were coming out the entrance hole. I was quite impressed with the performance of a single solid on a buffalo. Knocked him down right now and he was dead before we got up to him. Of course, there were no other buffalo with this lone bull, so there was no worry about pass-throughs wounding another animal.
By the way, I think your friends idea of cycling all of his rounds through his rifle and then loading solids is pretty ridiculous. I would think a PH would think the same thing. I'd want to continue shooting with whatever bullet I had loaded before the animals are gone. Then, if you want, you can load more ammo of whatever bullet you desire. But to stand there cycling ammo without firing makes no sense to me.
I got that unload/load drill from Bill, head honcho at Swift. Seemed to work for him. Empty rifle with a wounded buff nearby doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. But I’m not a buff hunter, he is. And he makes the bullets. I’m just a reloader. Bill was very helpful with technical info, so I’m in no position to criticize him. He knows a lot more about all this than I do.
Going to try and shoot my 416 Rem this weekend. 350gr Speers and testing H4895, IMR 4451 and TAC velocities. Hoping to get between 2500-2600fps with 350gr bullets.
Once I determine the powder that is giving desired velocity. I will then develop a go to load with the 350gr TSX and file in the Dakota Arms open sights that were recently installed.
I know you are just working up bullets and loads based on the PH's wishes. But I am not going to screw around with solids, and if I ever make it back to Africa for another buffalo, solids will not accompany me.
I can possibly understand the use of solids behind the leaded premium bullets, but I see no reason when using a mono.
Going to try and shoot my 416 Rem this weekend. 350gr Speers and testing H4895, IMR 4166 and TAC velocities. Hoping to get between 2500-2600fps with 350gr bullets.
Once I determine the powder that is giving desired velocity. I will then develop a go to load with the 350gr TSX and file in the Dakota Arms open sights that were recently installed.
I know you are just working up bullets and loads based on the PH's wishes. But I am not going to screw around with solids, and if I ever make it back to Africa for another buffalo, solids will not accompany me.
I can possibly understand the use of solids behind the leaded premium bullets, but I see no reason when using a mono.
I don't understand people that don't make their own decisions about what they are going to use on THEIR hunt. The hunter is paying the PH therefore the the PH works for the hunter. The PH can suggest but the hunter has the right to make his own choice of bullets
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Going to try and shoot my 416 Rem this weekend. 350gr Speers and testing H4895, IMR 4166 and TAC velocities. Hoping to get between 2500-2600fps with 350gr bullets.
Once I determine the powder that is giving desired velocity. I will then develop a go to load with the 350gr TSX and file in the Dakota Arms open sights that were recently installed.
I know you are just working up bullets and loads based on the PH's wishes. But I am not going to screw around with solids, and if I ever make it back to Africa for another buffalo, solids will not accompany me.
I can possibly understand the use of solids behind the leaded premium bullets, but I see no reason when using a mono.
I don't understand people that don't make their own decisions about what they are going to use on THEIR hunt. The hunter is paying the PH therefore the the PH works for the hunter. The PH can suggest but the hunter has the right to make his own choice of bullets
In this case we have an experienced hunter who has hunted Africa and Alaska. It’s just his first buff hunt, so he trying to go with the PH plan. Maybe once he has more experience with hunting buff; he’s not a Loony and thus less inclined to break out of the mold. He is a Partition proponent, has killed a bunch of stuff with them. Has used A-Frames a few times.
[So, if the SAF seems to be the better shooter, I think he'd go with it without reservations.
Would like opinions and ideas on which one of those two you guys would pick, assuming equivalent accuracy...
DF
I've always had consistency issues accuracy-wise with all Partions. I suspect you'll get slightly better penetration with the NPs and that is a definite plus, but i had no issues with the two buffs and the 400gr A Frame.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
[So, if the SAF seems to be the better shooter, I think he'd go with it without reservations.
Would like opinions and ideas on which one of those two you guys would pick, assuming equivalent accuracy...
DF
I've always had consistency issues accuracy-wise with all Partions. I suspect you'll get slightly better penetration with the NPs and that is a definite plus, but i had no issues with the two buffs and the 400gr A Frame.
I shot a mature bull Bison with a 400 grain partition from a 416 Rigby muzzle velocity of 2370 FPS. Rib cage shot the bullet bulged behind the partition like an A-frame. The lead was 3/16" below the jacket at the base and the base was pinched together as if the bullet tumbled. Penetration did not reached the offside rib cage.
Was not impressed
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Going to try and shoot my 416 Rem this weekend. 350gr Speers and testing H4895, IMR 4166 and TAC velocities. Hoping to get between 2500-2600fps with 350gr bullets.
Once I determine the powder that is giving desired velocity. I will then develop a go to load with the 350gr TSX and file in the Dakota Arms open sights that were recently installed.
I know you are just working up bullets and loads based on the PH's wishes. But I am not going to screw around with solids, and if I ever make it back to Africa for another buffalo, solids will not accompany me.
I can possibly understand the use of solids behind the leaded premium bullets, but I see no reason when using a mono.
I don't understand people that don't make their own decisions about what they are going to use on THEIR hunt. The hunter is paying the PH therefore the the PH works for the hunter. The PH can suggest but the hunter has the right to make his own choice of bullets
I agree 100%, I would not go with a PH that insists on solids. When I was organizing my hunt, I asked the PH what he preferred and he stated "Barnes or A-fames, whatever shoots best". Barnes it was, and one shot through the heart took care of it. Asked if I should shoot again and he said might as as well. For the third shot he replied "no, he's dead"
But, per usual, shot placement solves a lot of issues.
I got that unload/load drill from Bill, head honcho at Swift. Seemed to work for him. Empty rifle with a wounded buff nearby doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. But I’m not a buff hunter, he is. And he makes the bullets. I’m just a reloader. Bill was very helpful with technical info, so I’m in no position to criticize him. He knows a lot more about all this than I do.
DF
Dirtfarmer, these comments aren't directed at you, just to the the general participants of the thread.
Well, people do all sorts of different things and I suppose Bill is probably more experienced than I am. It doesn't sound smart to me, but who am I to say?
In any case, I'm a firm believer in listening to your PH and using his assumed greater experience on hunting buffalo than I possess. If you happen to have the ability to pick and choose your PH and can discuss these things with him ahead of time and then find one that has the same beliefs regarding bullets and hunting buffalo as you do, great! However, in my experience, the hunter doesn't always get to choose. Even if you think you'll be hunting with a certain PH, often times something comes up and you end up with a different PH than intended. Personally, I'm not that wedded to my beliefs on buffalo bullets and buffalo hunting, that I can't be flexible. I'd rather have both softs and solids available and then load accordingly based on the PH's recommendations and the situation at hand.
And, by the way, don't think that PH's don't deal with clients all the time that insist their way is the best and pay no mind to the experience of the PH. You can imagine the regard the PH has for clients like this.
Another bud, 41" Zim buff with 400 gr. TSX out of a Ruger RSM .416 Rigby. Bullet went thru over 50" of buff, found on far side. He ran, they found him dead after trailing him for a ways. Bud says they perused him too quick, he was down, they saw him get up and run into some thick stuff. He relates, trailing a wounded buff in a thicket can be a bit nerve racking. They were relieved when they found him down and dead.
I have a theory that some of the toughness of Cape Buffalo was perpetrated by using solids of yesteryear. Given the quality of softs back then, solids were the dependable/ logical choice.
I have to go no farther back than witnessing the difference between solids and softs (hollowpoints) out of a 22 rimfire on small game to know which is better for quick humane kills.
I have a theory that some of the toughness of Cape Buffalo was perpetrated by using solids of yesteryear. Given the quality of softs back then, solids were the dependable/ logical choice.
I have to go no farther back than witnessing the difference between solids and softs (hollowpoints) out of a 22 rimfire on small game to know which is better for quick humane kills.
Agreed
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I killed a nice hippo and a Buff with the 370 gn CEB Safari raptor. Shoot excellent out of my Dakota 416 Rigby. I killed a bunch of other African plains game with it as well. It was a little overkill on some critters but it was the only African caliber I had back in the day.
I killed a nice hippo and a Buff with the 370 gn CEB Safari raptor. Shoot excellent out of my Dakota 416 Rigby. I killed a bunch of other African plains game with it as well. It was a little overkill on some critters but it was the only African caliber I had back in the day.
I like CEB Raptors, have shot them in a .308 and a .375 H&H, both surprisingly accurate. I've read that some PH's like them.
I guess until they become better known, more mainstream, the rank and file PH won't even know what they are, must less what they can do...
Like has been said before, those guys are masters of their craft, but not that many are gun nuts. They tend to go with conventional thinking about bullet choices. And, if I was going on my first hunt with one, I'd probably do like my buddy is doing, go with the PH's recommendation.
Some contend it's "your hunt", do your thing. There can be two sides to that story, as there usually are to most stories. I for one, am not gonna try to talk him into using what I may like, but will load what he needs according to the PH's request. He'll have 400 gr. NPT's and 400 gr. SAF's to choose from for the soft and the new Breakaway 400 gr. Swift Solid, tweaked for the same POI. I think he'll be in good shape regardless of the order in which they load those rounds. He's an experienced BG hunter and an accomplished field marksman. When the PH gives him a shot, that buff's gonna get whacked.
A HELL of a nice old hard bossed bull there DF, Congrats to your Buddy.
Thanks, gunner.
Bud has been in law enforcement most of his career. Retired from a state job, he went to work for the U. S. Marshal Service. He said his biggest challenge was staying is shape to keep with with those guys, many less than half his age. But, he did.
He told his PH, he didn't want an "old man's hunt", and the PH obliged him. He said it was a pretty hard hunt but he kept up with the PH and his guys. Talking to him, I think that was half the pleasure he got out of the experience. Of course, a 41" buff is nothing to sneeze at and it looks good on his wall...
It’s nice to have solids on hand when you happen to see a world class duiker or steenbok and want to take it. Punch through like a pencil.
My smallest critter was a serval at ~50 yards with the 350 gr TSX 416 Rem. It's laying in my office with a bushbuck, waterbuck, buffalo and kudu all dropped at the shot. The bullet just worked.
Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.
I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.
How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?
DF
I would just shoot 350 grain TSX and forget the solids. But thats just me
Yep. My PH in Zim used the 400 gr TSX (416 Rigby) with no solids unless, of course, elephant was on the menu.
Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.
I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.
How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?
DF
I would just shoot 350 grain TSX and forget the solids. But thats just me
Yep. My PH in Zim used the 400 gr TSX (416 Rigby) with no solids unless, of course, elephant was on the menu.
Sounds like my bud’s Zim PH. I wonder if those guys compare notes, have a regional best use protocol?
A HELL of a nice old hard bossed bull there DF, Congrats to your Buddy.
Thanks, gunner.
Bud has been in law enforcement most of his career. Retired from a state job, he went to work for the U. S. Marshal Service. He said his biggest challenge was staying is shape to keep with with those guys, many less than half his age. But, he did.
He told his PH, he didn't want an "old man's hunt", and the PH obliged him. He said it was a pretty hard hunt but he kept up with the PH and his guys. Talking to him, I think that was half the pleasure he got out of the experience. Of course, a 41" buff is nothing to sneeze at and it looks good on his wall...
DF
Man that's cool as hell, I just had a buff hunt too, averaged 10.5 mi per day with just over 11 being the longest, over mountains and through dry and wet river sand, not an old man hunt I guess, didn't think to ask, still damn near kilt my lazy ass ; ] very glad for your old Bud, hope this other Bud connects and has a hell of a hunt too.
A HELL of a nice old hard bossed bull there DF, Congrats to your Buddy.
Thanks, gunner.
Bud has been in law enforcement most of his career. Retired from a state job, he went to work for the U. S. Marshal Service. He said his biggest challenge was staying is shape to keep with with those guys, many less than half his age. But, he did.
He told his PH, he didn't want an "old man's hunt", and the PH obliged him. He said it was a pretty hard hunt but he kept up with the PH and his guys. Talking to him, I think that was half the pleasure he got out of the experience. Of course, a 41" buff is nothing to sneeze at and it looks good on his wall...
DF
Man that's cool as hell, I just had a buff hunt too, averaged 10.5 mi per day with just over 11 being the longest, over mountains and through dry and wet river sand, not an old man hunt I guess, didn't think to ask, still damn near kilt my lazy ass ; ] very glad for your old Bud, hope this other Bud connects and has a hell of a hunt too.
Bud with this buff if a gun nut. He was shooting 400 gr. TSX over 100 gr. H-4831 with Fed 125's out of his .416 Rigby RSM. Said he shot that gun 250-300 times off hand at a hundred, getting ready. (sounds like someone else I know)...
Then killed this buff at 25 yds. with one TSX.
Other bud is an experienced BG hunter, but depends on me to do his gun work, which I don't mind doing. He has a fine hunting property that I use, help with tractor work, etc. In fact, I loaded some 350 Speer "rabbit" loads for him to practice with in his .416 Rem M-70. Well, I'm gonna pull those and seat the 400's, he never shot them.
I'll be doing the sighting, although there may not be that much difference at 50 yds, 350's vs 400's. We'll see. Bill at Swift said to sight at 50 yds. I had sighted the 350's at a hundred on a standing bench.
So, when everything arrives, I'll have (24) Swift Breakaway solids, (50) 400 gr. NPT's and (42) 400 gr. SAF's plus more brass. Bill said to load (3) rounds with the 400 gr. SAF, 73 gr. 74 gr. 75 gr. 4064 and shoot. Then adjust the Solid load for same POI as softs, all at 50 yds. His Swift solids are loaded with 77 gr. 4064.
I'm almost tempted to duplicate Swift factory loads and go shoot. I now know exactly the COAL, load, etc. of Swift A-Frame ammo, both soft and solid, even details on crimping..
Different guys, both good hunters, one a Loony/hunter, one a hunter who's killed more BG in more places than the Loony bud ever thought about. He's shot caribou, moose, elk, bear, deer, nilgai, etc, in the lower 48, Mexico, Alaska and Canada. He had a great PG hunt in RSA 2 yrs ago. I've posted stuff on that hunt and the "magic" 160 gr. NAB 7RM load over RL-26. At least he thinks it's magic, was magic for him. So, now to develop a "magic" .416 Rem load for buff.
gunner, yeah, they both great guys. The Loony type, I grew up with. The one headed over for buff, I've known around 15 yrs. or so. We hunt together all the time.
With 50 yds being Bill's recommended sight in distance and the gun already sighted for 350 Speers, what's wrong with duplicating Swift A-Frame commercial ammo, getting on the standing bench and tweaking 50 yd. POI with the 400's. Bill said their SAF ammo has 75 gr. 4064, the solid has 77 gr. So, evidently that's how they got the solid load, shooting it behind the SAF load, tweaking until POI was close.
I generally like to work up loads, but we're shooting very expensive stuff, don't have an unlimited supply of components and that thing kicks....
I'm not a hoss like you...
I can duplicate Bill's factory ammo data and go shoot. That doesn't sound too Loony, but at this point, I'm looking for a quick fix, a good result, burning up the least ammo.
What ya think? I won't be able to chrono with the standing bench, but if it's the same load as Swift commercial ammo, who cares.
BTW, I was using 4064 with the 350 Speer load before I knew how cool 4064 actually was... Go figure.
LOL, I'd run with it, you got it handled, plus saving those near unobtainum components, you know, next steak house visit, i'll bring my 416 Rigby I torched the throat in, it's the only rifle I have that has whisker burns on the side of the stock and my right pinky finger wore the blue off the face of the steel grip cap, I shot the chit out of that thing getting ready for Africa, read to many mage about it I guess.
Am going back to the Limpopo this fall, come hell or high water.
LOL, I'd run with it, you got it handled, plus saving those near unobtainum components, you know, next steak house visit, i'll bring my 416 Rigby I torched the throat in, it's the only rifle I have that has whisker burns on the side of the stock and my right pinky finger wore the blue off the face of the steel grip cap, I shot the chit out of that thing getting ready for Africa, read to many mage about it I guess.
Am going back to the Limpopo this fall, come hell or high water.
Didn't that .416 bore suddenly become a 505 Gibbs?
You, being the only dude I know who actually shot out a big rifle.
Another friend (not the two discussed) went ele hunting in Africa, bought a Merkel .500 NE. I helped him with loading the 570 gr. bullets. I got to shoot it. Big push, actually not as nasty as I thought it would be. I'd rather shoot it than a light Wby 340 or such. Those slap you, as you well know. I've had a.340 Wby and a 338 Win, both went down the road, still have a .338-06.
The Gibbs seems more potent than the .500 NE, 570 gr. at 2,150 fps, Where as the Gibbs is more like 525 gr. at 2,300 fps. That's a considerable difference.
Only a hoss like you would shoot out a Rigby and rebore it to a Gibbs. Bet you haven't shot it out,,,Yet...
Graf and sons are slow. I ordered 400 gr. Partitions and 400 gr. Breakaway Solids on 2-18-21. I never got the order, so I checked on line. Their web site shows the order as not shipped. I talked to customer service. They are currently shipping Feb 5th orders, mine should arrive in a couple of weeks. At least I was assured their last box of Breakaway Solids were mine. Good thing I'm not in a hurry or in a bind.
I have some brass and 400 gr. SAF's headed this way from a Fire friend.
But, time is gonna be getting short, which gives more reason to just duplicate Swift factory ammo, shoot'em at 50 yds off the tall bench, not worry about chrono, adjust 400 gr. POI from 350 gr. Speer POI, load ammo for Africa. At 50 yds, I'm guessing POI won't be that far off.
Gun is wearing a Trijicon TR-24 1-4x24 glass with triangle reticle. I was able to shoot some pretty good groups at a hundred, although that reticle wouldn't be my first choice for precise shooting. It should work well on a buff at buff ranges. Here's a link discussing the build and glass selection.
Dirtfarmer, Based on what you said, yeah, I'd just move forward with the recommended loads and see if they are minute of buff! As long as they were, I'd leave it right there and let your buddy go to Africa. Even the softs and solids shooting to the same POI, I wouldn't worry too much about that. You're typically not threading the needle on a buffalo, especially on the follow-up with the solid.
Dirtfarmer, Based on what you said, yeah, I'd just move forward with the recommended loads and see if they are minute of buff! As long as they were, I'd leave it right there and let your buddy go to Africa. Even the softs and solids shooting to the same POI, I wouldn't worry too much about that. You're typically not threading the needle on a buffalo, especially on the follow-up with the solid.
Thanks for all the help.
I'm about where you are and will put something together without a lot of shooting. And, if 400 Gr. Swift A-Frame ammo shoots around 2,350 fps or so, ammo assembled in my shop, using their data, should be close enough.
IIRC, my .350 gr. Speer load was 77 gr. of 4064. I'll pull the 350 gr. Speers, tweak the powder charge and seat the 400's. A Lee Factory crimp die should seal the deal.
LOL, I'd run with it, you got it handled, plus saving those near unobtainum components, you know, next steak house visit, i'll bring my 416 Rigby I torched the throat in, it's the only rifle I have that has whisker burns on the side of the stock and my right pinky finger wore the blue off the face of the steel grip cap, I shot the chit out of that thing getting ready for Africa, read to many mage about it I guess.
Am going back to the Limpopo this fall, come hell or high water.
Didn't that .416 bore suddenly become a 505 Gibbs?
You, being the only dude I know who actually shot out a big rifle.
Another friend (not the two discussed) went ele hunting in Africa, bought a Merkel .500 NE. I helped him with loading the 570 gr. bullets. I got to shoot it. Big push, actually not as nasty as I thought it would be. I'd rather shoot it than a light Wby 340 or such. Those slap you, as you well know. I've had a.340 Wby and a 338 Win, both went down the road, still have a .338-06.
The Gibbs seems more potent than the .500 NE, 570 gr. at 2,150 fps, Where as the Gibbs is more like 525 gr. at 2,300 fps. That's a considerable difference.
Only a hoss like you would shoot out a Rigby and rebore it to a Gibbs. Bet you haven't shot it out,,,Yet...
DF
, that it did Sir, my 10lb 500 Nitro with both 570gr Barnes's running at 2160 ish isn't too bad, it's built on a merkel boxlock action, iirc the original 505 Gibbs loads with 525/535's at 22-2300 fps were a handful, my loads with both 600gr Woodleighs at 2450 is indeed a hellbender, those were a few test loads, the rest are loaded to a very manageable but still potent 2150 with the 600's, I need to get that thing to Africa too, I don't doubt the Woodleighs.
No Sir, I haven't shot it out, wouldn't survive the trying!
LOL, I'd run with it, you got it handled, plus saving those near unobtainum components, you know, next steak house visit, i'll bring my 416 Rigby I torched the throat in, it's the only rifle I have that has whisker burns on the side of the stock and my right pinky finger wore the blue off the face of the steel grip cap, I shot the chit out of that thing getting ready for Africa, read to many mage about it I guess.
Am going back to the Limpopo this fall, come hell or high water.
Didn't that .416 bore suddenly become a 505 Gibbs?
You, being the only dude I know who actually shot out a big rifle.
Another friend (not the two discussed) went ele hunting in Africa, bought a Merkel .500 NE. I helped him with loading the 570 gr. bullets. I got to shoot it. Big push, actually not as nasty as I thought it would be. I'd rather shoot it than a light Wby 340 or such. Those slap you, as you well know. I've had a.340 Wby and a 338 Win, both went down the road, still have a .338-06.
The Gibbs seems more potent than the .500 NE, 570 gr. at 2,150 fps, Where as the Gibbs is more like 525 gr. at 2,300 fps. That's a considerable difference.
Only a hoss like you would shoot out a Rigby and rebore it to a Gibbs. Bet you haven't shot it out,,,Yet...
DF
, that it did Sir, my 10lb 500 Nitro with both 570gr Barnes's running at 2160 ish isn't too bad, it's built on a merkel boxlock action, iirc the original 505 Gibbs loads with 525/535's at 22-2300 fps were a handful, my loads with both 600gr Woodleighs at 2450 is indeed a hellbender, those were a few test loads, the rest are loaded to a very manageable but still potent 2150 with the 600's, I need to get that thing to Africa too, I don't doubt the Woodleighs.
No Sir, I haven't shot it out, wouldn't survive the trying!
Wow!
600 gr. at 2.450 fps. Now, that's a gunner load. I know you guys have some monster 'dillers there in SE OK, but those 600's gotta over penetrate....
Elk in NM doesn't throw that much lead at his jackwabbits... Well, maybe close...
I could see why you'd want to drop it to 2,150 fps and I'm sure that load doesn't rattle your fillings quite as bad.
BTW, what's your favorite .505 Gibbs powder and how much?
, Yes, quite the handful loaded all the way up, i'll leave that vermin eradication to our Buddy Elk, he likes it, 2150 is GTG, recoil wise and letting the big soft point do it's job, don't have my load book handy, but, H-4831 will go from mild to wild.
What Bill Hober says about the A-Frame and Break-Away is basically what I experienced when working up loads with 300-grainers n my .375 H&H. (Used it for testing because that's the caliber/weight of Break-Aways they had on hand.) They landed within about two inches of each other at 100 yards with the same powder charge, but came together when adding a little more powder to the Break-Away load.
Graf's has indeed been a little slow lately, due to bazillions of orders. But so far they've gotten me everything I've ordered--and their customer service has even called me to make sure about details. They're still among the best around.
Must also mention that I am often a little puzzled when hunters suggest using the load that shoots most-accurately on animals the size of Cape buffalo. A few years ago my friend D'Arcy Echols, the well-known custom gunsmith from Utah, told me one of his customers demanded a .458 Lott that would shoot "both softs and solids into a half-inch at 100 yards." D'Arcy then asked me, "Just how --------- small buffalo and elephants these days?"
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
My buddy who shot the Zim buff pictured, was pushing that 400 TSX out of his Rigby with 100 gr. H-4831 at around 2,450 fps or so.
In the .416 Remington, with 75 gr. 4064 and a 400 A-Frame, speed is in the 2,350-2,375 fps range. 78 gr. will push it to 2,400+ (Swift data).
But, I'm sticking with 75 gr for the A-Frame, 77 gr. for the solid, both Swift factory loads.
So with burning that extra powder and with the added gun weight, the Rigby doesn't offer that much over the Remington, A buff will never know the difference. Packing them both for miles in that hot, dry terrain, the hunter will for sure know the difference. As posted before, bud's Zim PH carried a push feed M-70 in .416 Rem. He liked the big RSM, just said it was too heavy. The 400 TSX is the PH's fav bullet for buff. Another Zim buff hunter remarked that his PH was also a 400 TSX advocate. I guess some of those PH's got past alternating softs and solids... I would think there may be some regioal differences in ordinance among PH's.
What Bill Hober says about the A-Frame and Break-Away is basically what I experienced when working up loads with 300-grainers n my .375 H&H. (Used it for testing because that's the caliber/weight of Break-Aways they had on hand.) They landed within about two inches of each other at 100 yards with the same powder charge, but came together when adding a little more powder to the Break-Away load.
Graf's has indeed been a little slow lately, due to bazillions of orders. But so far they've gotten me everything I've ordered--and their customer service has even called me to make sure about details. They're still among the best around.
Must also mention that I am often a little puzzled when hunters suggest using the load that shoots most-accurately on animals the size of Cape buffalo. A few years ago my friend D'Arcy Echols, the well-known custom gunsmith from Utah, told me one of his customers demanded a .458 Lott that would shoot "both softs and solids into a half-inch at 100 yards." D'Arcy then asked me, "Just how --------- small buffalo and elephants these days?"
Now, that's a good one...
D'Arcy had him...
On the accuracy part, my bud is a Partition fan, used A-Frames in his 338 Win Mag in AK, so he's familiar with them. If I can show him one or the other shoots better, I think he'll be satisfied to use that bullet. So, it may be more Psych Ops than Ballistics....
Graf order arrived today, 400 gr Swift Breakaway solids and 400 gr Partitions.
So now we’re ready to get serious. Sure glad to finally have those components in hand. I’m grateful that Graf produced, had the items. And I’m grateful to the Fire contributor who sold us Rem brass and 400 gr. A-Frames. These components are otherwise unobtainable.
I am going to be interested in hearing your impressions on shooting the 416. As I have shared, mine is very easy to shoot for a big bore.
I’ve shot it with 350’s, not that bad. Don’t think 400’s are gonna be that different. I’ve shot .458 Win and 500 NE, neither of which were all that bad. Big push, especially the 500, but all very controllable.
Standing bench is the way to go with big guns, IMO. And I’m not gonna chrono these, just duplicate Swift ammo and shoot. 400’s at 2,350-2,375 fps will do what needs doing. As noted earlier, Bill Hober gave me Swift’s factory load data and I can duplicate it.
Man, am I blessed to have these components. Wow. Without Campfire connections, my bud would be up a creek. And don’t ya know, I’m letting him know. And my wife wonders why I spend time on the Fire.
I saw 2 cape buffalo once at a water tank while hunting impala in South Africa so I am totally qualified to give an opinion here.
My opinion is that this topic is interesting, as a true, herd tracking cape buffalo hunt is the only thing that interests me in Africa anymore. Thanks for the imformative thread. I am listening.
I’m very late to this conversation, but here is the load I shoot in my .416 Hoffman; it is only very slightly larger than the Remington case, so could be a good starting point. You should reduce powder by a couple grains to start.
In my Hoffman, I shoot 81.0 grains of RL-15, pushing a 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaw at 2,510. I was given that load by Jack Carter, who founded Trophy Bonded Bullets. He shot a Hoffman also, and as he put it “A 400 grain Bearclaw at 2,500 is one hell of a buffalo killing load”. He was right, it is.
I’m headed to Tanzania in October with 3 buffalo on license. I’m not sure which Bullets I’ll be shooting as finding any quality 400 grain softs is impossible at this time. Thankfully, we now have a better selection of bullets than we did 33 years ago when I got that load. I’ll go with Nosler, Swifts, Cutting Edge, Barnes or Trophy Bonded, whatever I can get my hands on. I’ve got some 350 grain TTSX’s, but my PH prefers I shoot 400’s.
On a related note, I saw where someone mentioned having trouble finding 416 Remington brass. You can get it directly from Pete at Quality Cartridge. I just bought 100 rounds of new 416 Hoffman brass from him, which should last my lifetime. He also carries 416 Remington brass in stock. (301) 373-3719.
Instead of alternating softs and solids, my PH - Alan Vincent, suggests I shoot either a 400 grain Swift or Nosler, with TSX’s in the magazine instead of solids. He figures the TSX will penetrate nearly as well as a solid, while doing more damage along the way. He wants a Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition first to avoid an exit with other buffalo around the target.
I have a box of swift A-frame 350gr. .416 I will never use.
ALASKA is a "HARD COUNTRY for OLDMEN". (But if you live it wide'ass open, balls'to the wall, the pedal floored, full throttle, it is a delightful place, to finally just sit-back and savor those memories while sipping Tequila).
CA...I have a box of 400gr Swift A-frames and a box of Speer AGS solids. If you're interested...the Swifts are $90 plus shipping. Speer AGS solids are $125 plus shipping. I had a lot of success shooting buffalo with Swift bullets, and Speer AGS bullets. Sad to say, my African hunting days are but memories, (twenty-four trips in thirty years) so I won't be requiring any further use of these bullets.
As an aside... I've also shot several buffalo with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Sledge Hammer solids. The first buffalo I shot in Zim was in a mealie field chewing his cud. The conditions were such, we got within 20yds of him before he realized he had company. He slowly turned his head, saw us, and jumped to his feet and turned to face us. I shot him in the chest with the Bear Claw, and he took the hit, stumbled, turned 90 degrees to my right, and I shot him again in the shoulder with a Sledge Hammer. That was that. The solid went thru, and the soft was found in the hip next to the bone. A picture perfect mushroom. Those bullets behaved as advertised. My rifle: M-70 .416 Taylor. I only shot 400gr bullets, and I settled on 2350fps as the best (in my rifle) for accuracy with both soft/solid.
CA...I have a box of 400gr Swift A-frames and a box of Speer AGS solids. If you're interested...the Swifts are $90 plus shipping. Speer AGS solids are $125 plus shipping. I had a lot of success shooting buffalo with Swift bullets, and Speer AGS bullets. Sad to say, my African hunting days are but memories, (twenty-four trips in thirty years) so I won't be requiring any further use of these bullets. O As an aside... I've also shot several buffalo with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Sledge Hammer solids. The first buffalo I shot in Zim was in a mealie field chewing his cud. The conditions were such, we got within 20yds of him before he realized he had company. He slowly turned his head, saw us, and jumped to his feet and turned to face us. I shot him in the chest with the Bear Claw, and he took the hit, stumbled, turned 90 degrees to my right, and I shot him again in the shoulder with a Sledge Hammer. That was that. The solid went thru, and the soft was found in the hip next to the bone. A picture perfect mushroom. Those bullets behaved as advertised. My rifle: M-70 .416 Taylor. I only shot 400gr bullets, and I settled on 2350fps as the best (in my rifle) for accuracy with both soft/solid.
Tsibindi, I really appreciate that offer. That’s very kind of you. However, a charge from Swift Bullets hit my credit card yesterday. I had a couple boxes of A-frames on back order and I guess Swift has finally shipped them. I went from not many bullets a couple weeks ago to now having more bullets to test for groups than I know what to do with. In addition to a box of 350 gr TTSX, I’ve got boxes of 400 grain in Swift A-frames, Cutting Edge Raptors, Nosler Partitions & Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. The only ones missing are TSX, which I’m supposed to get in April. In solids I’ve got Trophy Bonded, Cutting Edge and Woodleighs. I do appreciate your offer though.
I do appreciate Fire contributors helping each other with hard to get components during a time of ammo and component famine.
I hope all this passes and we get back to "normal", whatever that's gonna look like.
Things could and may well get worse with this nutty, woke administration in D.C.
Maybe some of this mess will wake up those who haven't been politically engaged, or even that concerned.
When it affects us personally, we tend to pay more attention. This stuff is getting pretty personal, IMO.
DF
I believe it’s going to get a lot more “personal” real soon. I have a feeling the next 2 years are going to be very long. And if the Dems hold both houses after the mid-terms, the following 2 will be the longest of our lifetime.
When I hunted Zim with my son and daughter a couple years ago with the recently late Phillip Smythe, he said he preferred all his buffalo hunters use TSX bullets due to their unfailing penetration. My daughter used the same 300 gr TSX bullets in her .416 Remington as she carries in Alaska and they worked perfectly I used the new Hornady DGX in my 458 and after seeing their performance Phillip said they also would get his recommendation
When I hunted Zim with my son and daughter a couple years ago with the recently late Phillip Smythe, he said he preferred all his buffalo hunters use TSX bullets due to their unfailing penetration. My daughter used the same 300 gr TSX bullets in her .416 Remington as she carries in Alaska and they worked perfectly I used the new Hornady DGX in my 458 and after seeing their performance Phillip said they also would get his recommendation
John's not going to like you. All of mine have recommended the TSX in some form.
Sighted in my bud's .416 Rem M-70 yeesterday. Bill Hober at Swift said to sight at 50 yds. Well, the most convenient was 67 yds. I was using a 4'x4' piece of 1/4" Lauan plywood that I had covered with black plastic sheeting, painted it white and painted red targets. It acts a lot like a Dirty Bird target. There was a limb sticking up from a fallen tree (previous hurricane carnage) and I leaned the plywood target against it. That's the why of the 67 yds. I was using the standing bench, which IMO, is the only way to shoot a big gun.
The gun had previoiusly been sighted at a hundred with 350 gr. Speer over 74 gr 4064. I was wanting my bud to shoot it some, but he didn't. So, I pulled those bullets and loaded the 400's. I had a collet for my Forster bullet puller, but due to the hard Lee Factory die crimp, it wouldn't pull the bullet. So, I ran the round up in the press until just the bullet showed, applied Vice Grips, and pulled the bullet. Of course, no salvage of those bullets. Vice Grips "made an impression"... BTW, I put a hard Lee Factory Crimp die crimp on all of these rounds. The bullets I seat aren't going anywhere.
I tweaked the powder charges to 75 gr. 4064 for the softs, 77 gr for the solids, per Bill Hober's recommendations. That's the load he uses in his factory ammo. As previously discussed it evidently takes just a bit more powder to bring the solids up to the same POI as the softs.
I sighted in with the 400 gr. NPT's (first target). First shot was about 2" low, then I moved the scope, shot two, moved it again and shot two. The centered two were the last shot.
Then in the second photo, I shot 400 gr. SAF's and they were about as accurate as the NPT's with identical POI. And all this with the Trijicon triangle, with which I find I can shoot pretty consistently. It wouldn't be my pick for LR shooting, but does great for what it was designed to do.
Then, the Swift Breakaway solids, third photo. They weren't quite as accurate as the softs, but they do cycle thru the action really slick. That's the idea behind the design. Some of the competition's solids with big HP's, don't cycle as slick as these. These bullets cost $7.17 each (Midway), Larry doesn't have the best prices and of course he doesn't have the bullets.... A box of Swift Breakaway ammo in .416 Rem is over $200. A box of 400 gr. SAF's is pushing $150.
I'm going to load both NPT's and SAF's for Africa. My bud will shoot which one the PH prefers. I see no difference at the range and would doubt there'll be much, if any, difference on a buff.
The Solids aren't as accurate, but as I told my bud, by the time you're down to solids, MOA accuracy means nothing. You're then at a minute of a buff, and probably one on the move. BTW, these 400 gr. NPT's and SAF's are more accurate than the 350 gr. Speers, which shot about 1 1/2" at a hundred. Take these 67 yd. groups out to a hundred, I think they'd be close to MOA. But just two rounds? Not 10... Components are scarce and this isn't the gun to shoot 10 shot groups...
Here are the photos. The only way I can tell the SAF from the NPT, the SAF has no lead above the jacket, whereas the NPT has a tip of lead showing. Closer exam shows a slightly different ogive. The Breakaway is sorta weird looking, but made to cycle smoothly and that they do, like real slick. Slick cycling in the heat of battle should negate complaints about the cost...
Good to know the "improved" Hornady DGX worked well. The first version was a little dicey, according to my PH friends.
Have killed buffalo, and been standing alongside hunting partners who killed them, with Barnes TSXs, Combined Technology Fail Safes, the late lamented North Fork soft-nose, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frames, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and probably a couple I've forgotten. Have also discussed buffalo "softs" with 25-30 PHs. The cartridges have run from the .375 H&H to .458 Lott.
Probably the most surprising comments came from John Van Der Meulen, the father of the first PH I hunted with, who like my good friend Kevin Thomas grew up in what was then Rhodesia, and acquired his early experience on buffalo in the same way as Kevin, by culling hundreds on ranches. John's choice of a "soft" back then (30 years ago) was the .258 Winchester 500-grain "solid" made with a gilding-metal jacket--because it expanded somewhat ("riveted") yet penetrated well--usually without exiting, important in herd shooting.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Bill Hober is sure proud of his Breakaway Solids at $7+ per bullet. Well that's Larry's price at Midway. He had the price, just not the bullets. I got them a bit cheaper, in fact, the last box Graf and Son had. They sure are slick cycling, and from what I've read and heard, that's what the new design is all about.
When the tip breaks away, what's left is not too unlike the Hydrostatically Stabilized solids by another maker. Those bullets are said to drive straighter, not veer as some older solids were known to do. But, solids with large HP evidently weren't the slickest feeding due to the nose design. Bill Hober reportedly solved that problem, retaining the effectiveness of the HP design. He said it's the most tested solid ever. I believe him.
They don't seem to be cutting edge accurate compared to the NPT and SAF, but are no doubt good enough for their designated purpose. And, I didn't shoot enough to really say for sure. But as hard as those components are to find, I'm not shooting a bunch of them. A few representative shots will have to do.
Needless to say, my bud was very happy with how his rifle shot those 400's. It's an old push feed M-70, but it does have a new Shilen barrel, so why not.
DF, Looks like you're buddy is all set to go and got good accuracy from the info that Bill provided.
Yeah, I appreciate all the help from you guys here on the Fire, especially you.
Those components are just about impossible to find and I got what he needed.
I was fortunate that Bill Hober answered the phone at Swift. He was very helpful, sorta bristled a bit when I mentioned Partitions.
So, I didn't mention that unmentionable subject again. He was quite generous with his time. I think he enjoyed the visit and helping me out.
Just two shots a group doesn't make, but does give an idea. I had two almost touching twice with the 400 NPT's as I adjusted the Trijicon 1-4. I was impressed how well I could shoot that triangle and how well the gun grouped. Those targets were perfect. The triangle formed a pie shape in the bottom of that red dot, which turned out to be just the right size. The old Model 70 trigger is about perfect, which helped. I used a Bud's bag with heavy sand which worked pretty well.
I think the NPT's may actually edge the SAF's regarding accuracy, but I didn't shoot enough to prove that. The NPT's were a bit closer, twice. But the difference is negligible. Either one of those bullets at 2,375 fps will bust about anything walking, short of an ele. And these solids would probably do a job on one of those.
Bud leaves in May and I look forward to photos and his report.
The the only two things you need to know about buffalo bullets is Swift A Frames are great in all conditions, and solids suck. All of them.
Hey Model70Guy, care to share why all solids suck? Just wondering. I'm sure you have your reasons.
Simple enough really. I've shot buffalo on 3 continents. Most of that was Asiatics in Australia on cull. Me being me I experimented with bullets because by my reckoning it would be a terrible waste of an opportunity not to. There's lots of good softs..Solids are all tied at " you might as well shoot a pig with a pellet gun" I fully understand the theory behind second shot solids but just don't agree with it anymore. If you have to shoot an outgoer don't even think about threading a bullet through 2 bales of wet hay for a heart shot. Breaking his hip is too easy and its not going anywhere after that. Another thing I know for sure is buffalo run whatever way they want when when they get that first hit.
I don't know much, but some personal records are 14 without moving my feet, and 29 in a day. The other thing I know for sure is a PHs favorite bullet is whatever is on your belt.. Most of them can't afford to hunt buffalo on their own dime.
Last edited by Model70Guy; 04/13/21.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the primary reason buffalo got such a reputation for being hard to kill was the erratic results of cup-and-core "softs," and not just in smaller calibers like .375 but .40+ cartridges. Which is why so many PH's recommended solids.
If I ever hunt buffalo again (which may or may not happen) will use a .375 H&H and some brand of monolithic in the 270-grain range, and not bother with solids.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the primary reason buffalo got such a reputation for being hard to kill was the erratic results of cup-and-core "softs," and not just in smaller calibers like .375 but .40+ cartridges. Which is why so many PH's recommended solids.
If I ever hunt buffalo again (which may or may not happen) will use a .375 H&H and some brand of monolithic in the 270-grain range, and not bother with solids.
From what I'm seeing (I'm not a buff hunter) and hearing, some PH thinking may be regional. For example I've heard of more than one Zim PH preferring TSX's.
Whereas in RSA, soft, solid combo seems more prevalent. Now this is a small sampling of reports. But it makes sense that PH's talk and share what works best for them and their clients. And, I guess that could be regional. Would appreciate thought on that.
Buffalo got a reputation of turning bullet-proof after the first shot from people with only one soft in their rifle, and poor reasoning skills. Plains game got a reputation for tenaciously running after good hits from people who shouldn't be running buffalo bullets in their deer rifles. Well, that and a herd animals instinct to run with the herd instead of making a short run and trying to hide from you like a whitetail.
Last edited by Model70Guy; 04/14/21.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
In my opinion, the only time solids should be used are on elephant, rhino and hippo on land.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
TSXs baby, like Porsche, there are no substitutes....
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
TSXs baby, like Porsche, there are no substitutes....
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don’t forget about boob size.
Big is better. Or so I’ve heard.
No substitute.
Ha!
DF
The bigger the better the tighter the sweater
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Thanks for your comments, Model70guy! That makes sense to me. I'm a fan of both Swift A-frames and the TSX. Doubt I'll be loading solids for my next trip.
Brownells has 400 grain A-frames in stock. I have 100 on the way for my Rigby. I also found 300 grainers for my 375 H&H and 450 grain 458 in stock on swifts site. All my big bores seem to shoot the A-Frames very well.
375H&H I’m using 75 grains of RL 17 cci 250 3.570 2610 FPS 416 Rigby is shooting 350 TSX with 104 grains H4831 FED 215 3.750 not sure on speed but it’s shooting three touching at 60 yards. 458 Winchester 450 shoots under MOA using AA2231 at 77.7 grains 2320 FPS 3.310 OAL.
I have used TSX almost exclusively since the early '00s and was very happy with them until 2018 on my lion hunt in Zimbabwe. We recovered 3 300 gr TSX from bait- eland, buffalo and zebra and my PH and I were both disappointed in the lack of expansion. He did not want me to use my 375 H&H on my lion as he was afraid of a pencil-through and instead insisted on using my 300 Win for my lion.
As mentioned, African PHs just do not really care for TSX and after seeing the recovered TSX all the PHs said to use A Frames. I don't remember what Phillip's response was or if we had lunch with him before we recovered the TSX but he would have been the sole dissenting PH. (Shot my ele not far from where he died.)
Also, two of the more veteran Alaskan bear outfitters pretty much said they'd rather I not use TSX. One told me to bring A Frames and not TSX for Kodiak a few years back and in October I'll be taking 300 gr A Frames (375 H&H) for my peninsula brown bear hunt. (65 gr RL 15 mirrors factory Federal A Frame loads in my rifle).
As an aside, my PH preferred also to not use solids on buffalo and wanted maximum tissue damage (but did prefer solids on giraffes as they are thick skinned).
I will continue to use TSX in my faster cartridges as they are extremely accurate at 300+ yards, but will never use them again on DG rifles.
The bullets I use on my upcoming hunt will be partially determined by what I can get my hands on for my .416. So far, I’ve gotten 400 grain Bullets in Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, cutting Edge Raptor, along with some 350 grain Barnes TTSX. In solids, I have 400 grain Trophy Bonded, Nosler, Swift and Cutting Edge.
I think any of these Bullets will work fine, it’ll mostly depend on what shoots best. I’ll be shooting a traditional expanding bullet first, as Alan Vincent wants that due to large buffalo herds in Mlele. He’s concerned about a first shot pass through. I’m keen to try some of the cutting edge Raptors too, as I’m hearing they’re an exceptional buffalo bullet. Good thing I have 3 buffalo on license!
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, Yes, quite the handful loaded all the way up, i'll leave that vermin eradication to our Buddy Elk, he likes it, 2150 is GTG, recoil wise and letting the big soft point do it's job, don't have my load book handy, but, H-4831 will go from mild to wild.
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