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Still pursuing the same vintage guns I pursued in 1980. Only thing different is I can afford them better now. I'll scrimp&save and scheme for a 1930-vintage rifle, and walk right past a rack full of shiny new guns without a second glance. I'm still as passionate, if not more so, about cast bullet shooting as I was in 1980, only a helluva lot more knowledgeable than I was then. Handguns: vintage Colt and Smith revolvers, and Colt 1911's still hold my attention, not so much modern tacticool stuff. I still wear mostly wool when hunting- if weather is so extreme that wool doesn't cut it, I'll not be out in it anyway. (Foot gear is another story- my quest continues for the bestest/lightest/warmest stuff to keep my long suffering toes warm.) Cars: I was knee-deep in the British sports car culture in 1980, still have a pristine 51 year old MG in the garage.

In short, my hardware hasn't changed one bit. My attitudes and knowledge has though. Stick in the mud? Maybe, but that's not to say I haven't kept up - I have kept up purely from an academic standpoint. I simply chose to spend those years perfecting my craft, so to speak, not chasing after every new thing that crossed my path.


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I'm with you. A tupperware gun just doesn't do it for me. I have a couple Glocks because they work, but I never sit and admire them on a cold Winter night. They are about as exciting as a circular saw or a toaster. Both things work well and do a good job, but outside of that, they aren't nice to look at or fondle.

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I disagree about the clothing. I started wearing the advanced alpine mountaineering clothing in the 1980's -- polypropylene base layers, the polyethylene fleece from Malden Mills, the nylon and polyester shells with Gore-tex vapor-permeable membranes, Spandex polyether-polyurea fabrics, 2 and 4-way stretch Schoeller soft-shells, the wicking "micro-fiber" polyesters, and siliconized nylon. While some of this stuff was invented earlier in the 20th century, it was the 1980's when this stuff really hit the outdoor clothing market.

There is none of it, and nothing invented since that I wouldn't trade for age-old natural materials like wool, canvas and down, especially for hunting where some bulk in the "luggage" is tolerable. There may be a few narrow applications where the advanced materials are a real benefit like ultralight trekking or bicycle touring, but for almost every other outdoor activity, what this stuff has done is allowed outdoor clothing makers to source highly consistent synthetic materials, produce garments with low-cost offshore labor, and sell them at massive margins through niche marketing to rich US markets for leisure and recreation.

I will remark that since the 80's there has been a distinct shift from low-cost (birch) and middle-priced (low-grade walnut) hardwood stocks to synthetic polymer stocks being standard on rifles and shotguns. There are also a lot of laminated (plywood) options that were not popular in the 80's. Back then, plastic and plywood would have been regarded as cheap and crappy. Today, people prefer them because they're stable and can easily be made to stay accurate. I think people came to realize that pursuing that goal with solid wood was a proposition that could double the cost of the rifle for most rifles under $1000 and people buying in that price range are not willing to pay that.

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One of the biggest game changers that has contributed to paradigm shifts is the breadth and depth of information on the web. What I mean by this is the sharing of information and experiences beyond word of mouth. Back when I was a kid a lot of paradigms were fed by gun writers and folks that said you needed a 300 win Mag to kill a “big whitetail” or a 338 win Mag to kill an elk. Many of those folks are still around and are the same people year after year that say it will be the biggest mistake of your life if you try to shoot a deer with a 223, but haven’t themselves. Yet HUNDREDS of people on forums shoot deer with 223s, post pictures and results and are perfectly happy. I have a cousin who is absolutely convinced his first elk rifle (first centerfire rifle) needs to be a 300 win Mag for those “cross canyon shots”. When I asked how he came to that determination he said the old timers at the bar near his moms cabin said so and live and breathe elk hunting. Later I learned none of them have shot an elk since the 80s.

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in this order EXcal crossbow termacell 4wheeler other than that I don't need any thing newer than 1880

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It's a hackneyed expression- but it's all good. We chase our own dreams, select the gear that suits our needs/dispositions, and (hopefully) stand united against the forces that would deny us our pursuits.

Keep on keeping on.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer


Jerry,

My experience is that better bullets have made the most difference--along with factory rifles being bedded better. Have gotten well under sub-inch accuracy with quite a few older rifles using today's bullets, though I sometimes had to "adjust" the bedding--which was often as easy as free-floating the barrel with a plastic bread-bag clip behind the recoil lug.


No argument from me. I honestly defer to your expertise and testing much more than I have.

I just know it all works better.
Thnx

Jerry


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Something for the turkey hunters out there to think on....he keeps walking me for a chance. He stops walking he got a chance.

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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
It's a hackneyed expression- but it's all good. We chase our own dreams, select the gear that suits our needs/dispositions, and (hopefully) stand united against the forces that would deny us our pursuits.

Keep on keeping on.



100% ^^^

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good post gnoahhh . we do need to stick together

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I shot my first sub-moa 5-shot group in 1965. The bullets were Sierras. Fifty-five years later, the same bullet, newly manufactured, shoots about the same (different barrel, mind you. That one wore out years ago). I was an early proponent of synthetic stocking of hunting rifles and built my first in 1977. Proponent or not, I never built one for myself until ten years later, though most of my target guns were so equipped. Today, I have two glass stocked hunting rifles and neither is a real "go to". As far as other gear is concerned: I have a range finder and fool around with it but it's not something I have to have in my pack. I have never warmed up to the idea of proving my long range skills on game. Binoculars are better than I had fifty years ago. My boots are better but the feet in them are tired! Backpacks are a lot better than the old plywood GI packboards I used to use (I still have a couple). Socks. I have learned that a thirty dollar pair of socks may be money well spent. I still camp the same as I always have.
The bottom line is, I have not changed my opinions much over the last 55 years; as far as hunting is concerned. I enjoy my time in the field the same way I always have. I shoot similar rifles. Many years of long range competition shooting has made me less enamored of the practice of shooting long range at game rather than more. As a gunsmith, my methods have evolved over the years, driven by experience. Nonetheless, my bedding techniques are about the same as I practiced in the early '70's and the rifles still shoot OK. Barrel fitting is much the same and it still works too. Perhaps this just shows that I am resistant to change and I'm OK with that. GD

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Excellent post.

Originally Posted by okie john
Like almost everyone on this thread, I've been an active shooter during all of the years in question, including hunting, military service, working in the industry, and competition. In that time, I’ve seen a ton of major changes for all shooters. The biggest is the internet, which lets us exchange information directly instead of hearing only what various marketing departments want us to hear. That alone has changed the market far more than any other single factor.

The second is the Global War on Terror. Various governments have put a lot of R&D money into gear, learning, and skill development. We now have a couple of generations of people who REALLY know how to shoot when the chips are down, and who know what gear they need. Some of those folks are teaching the trade and classes cost a lot less than you'd think. Combine that expertise with the internet and a lot of old legends just don't stand up any more.

Beyond that, and as pertains to rifles:

1. Rifles and ammunition are more accurate. The road to 1 MOA was long and costly in 1981. Now you can get 0.5 MOA with cheap rifles and factory ammo. A lot of machinery will get worn out making guns and ammo in the next few months. Manufacturers will replace it with better machinery and accuracy will improve even more.

2. Bullets are more consistent, so groups are smaller. Bullet companies have also refined BC figures to make getting hits at long range more predictable. Wind permitting, a beginner can get hits at distances that were once limited to experts. Smart folks won't use this to extend their maximum range, but to increase the chance of success at mid-range.

3. Bullets perform better on target. You can choose light monomentals to reduce recoil and increase penetration or much heavier jacketed bullets for higher BCs and better long-range performance but you still can't get both.

4. Propellants are temperature-insensitive so they’re more consistent, which helps to shrink groups. We've also filled in some gaps in the burn-rate chart so there are now far more shades of gray between 4350 and 4831 than there were in 1981.

5. Optics are better. People shoot a LOT more than they did in 1981. They have better rifles and ammunition so they shoot at longer range. Many folks have stopped holding over and started dialing so optics must track—and many of them do. We'll soon have a generation of shooters who have only known dialing. I suspect that the non-dialing scope will eventually go the way of the fixed 4x.

6. Rifles are lighter. In 1981, the only way to get a rifle as light as a Kimber Montana was to spend $2-3,000 on a custom. Now the Montana is a mid-price item and their Mountain Ascent—even lighter than the Montana—costs about what the Montana did (adjusted for inflation) when it was introduced. Plenty of other rifles are almost as light as the Montana at half the price.

7. Everything is cheaper. Obviously not so much during the pandemic, but certainly just before and hopefully again soon.



All together, these things have redefined standards for distance, precision, and weight. But we still have problems:

1. High-BC bullets and scopes that track have made flat trajectory less relevant but people still focus on the wrong things. They used to focus on velocity instead of on bullet construction and shot placement. Now they focus on BC instead of on bullet construction and shot placement.

2. We need better ways to understand terminal performance, especially with monometal bullets. A medium-sized wound channel end-to-end plus an exit is all the penetration we can use. Does energy still matter with a wound channel like that? How do we quantify the role of frontal area? Does something like the 358 Winchester with a 180-grain TTSX at 2,600 fps become the new giant killer?

The biggest issue is that while we easily dial elevation, most of us still can’t read wind.


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Rangefinders are the single best improvement for my hunting. Still using same guns and calibers that I did 30yrs ago, but I have upgraded the optics on a couple to allow longer range target practice. Since their introduction I've used Leupold's B&C or LRD reticles and truly wish I'd have bought more when they were readily available. Those reticles, coupled with a good rangefinder have allowed me to shoot past my old comfort zone on many occasions, but still not even close to what some consider long range today. I still like horse power and will never adopt the Creedmore or similar cartridges for my hunting. The 270 and 30/06 are mild enough for me!

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Not sure what “generally accepted truths” mean in this context, but a few things come to mind that have worked for me. Much improved Barnes bullets, laser rangefinders, better binoculars for my aging vision, truly waterproof boots and clothing have all improved my lot. Happy Trails


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I guess I forget how long ago 1980 is, I had leather boots insulated with???, waterproofed with Sno Seal. Grandpa shot various "shells" from his "big rifle " a Remington 742 in 243 Win. He mostly managed to knock one down reasonably regularly. Oh yeah, Suoer X shot shells cause they hit harder.

Not exactly on the original topic but what about game populations. In the fall of 1980 you had to apply in August for an any deer permit, called a doe tag. They usually gave out 1000 of them for Unit 29 in MO. If you got drawn, as a kid ( I was 18), you felt like you'd won the lottery, heck you might get to shoot that year.

We'd show up Friday night and Grandpa would say 'Boys theys deer everywhere '. 4 of us would hunt the weekend and see 8-9 deer between us and that was deer everywhere. If you could scratch down a 6 inch spike you were the talk of school.

During Youth Season my nieces and nephews want to hear about the Good Old Days and I always start the story with 'Today we woke up...'


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WAM - purposely vague but the intention was to refer to the prevailing wisdom of the day & how it’s changed. After typing this I realize that maybe I should have just said it that way.

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Originally Posted by John55
Rangefinders are the single best improvement for my hunting. Still using same guns and calibers that I did 30yrs ago, but I have upgraded the optics on a couple to allow longer range target practice. Since their introduction I've used Leupold's B&C or LRD reticles and truly wish I'd have bought more when they were readily available. Those reticles, coupled with a good rangefinder have allowed me to shoot past my old comfort zone on many occasions, but still not even close to what some consider long range today. I still like horse power and will never adopt the Creedmore or similar cartridges for my hunting. The 270 and 30/06 are mild enough for me!


+1, nothing has changed the game more than the affordable electronic rangefinder. Have both a 30-06 & 6.5 CM, both work just fine but the latter sure kicks a lot less than the former.

Last edited by centershot; 02/23/21.

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Originally Posted by centershot
nothing has changed the game more than the affordable electronic rangefinder.


Completely agree. I shoot enough in the off-season that the only "guess" left is the wind. Rifles/loads are sorted out, sighted in, and charts well verified LONG before opening day. I do some practice from 600-900 yds not because I intend on shooting critters at that distance, but, because it makes those 300-400yd shots seem "easy". Much like practicing with a bow @ 40yds makes 20yds seem like a piece of cake.

"Cold" was never much of a problem as all of my hunting has been afoot. That said, it's easier to stay dry or get dry now than it was then.


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in the '80's, my hunting moto was if it's brown it's down. we still cull does after rut but I'd pass anything less than a nice 10pt. In the '80's my main rig was a SAKO A111 30'06 in a Brown precision stock with a Leupold 2.5x8 scope. now my main rifle is an AO 7/08 custom with a Zeiss 2x10 scope. For a few thousand dollars, I picked up 1/2" group size. As an earlier poster said our seasons are much longer so no more hunting in the rain or really cold mornings. Since I hunt in the south the termocell has been a blessing. We hunt out of tower stands so the gadgets like range finders & CDS are of no value to me.

Hunting now is a social event where 40 years it was a competitive sport.

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Factory ammo is good.. I've told this many times. Forty years ago, I needed a rifle, and bought a new Remington M700 BDL 30-06. I didn't know how to shoot so I bought boxes of factory, Imperial, Winchester and Remington, one box at a time. .I ended up with some empties. One of my fellow workers father reloaded, A Lee Loader I think. He offered to swap my empties for a box of reloads. The box was measured even. At the garbage dump / range , offhand at a 100 paces I was getting a 5" group with iron sights, an out of the box stock rifle. With the hand loads the group shrunk to half that . Hmmm, there might be something to that. Now you can get a box off the shelf and get a good group. Or at least with my son shooting.


You can hunt longer with wind at your back
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