Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Advice on .416 bullets for buf

I'll see if I can dig up some load data tonight after I get home to share with you tomorrow.

By the way, before I left for Africa, I took 4 rounds of my selected A-frame loads and set them in the sun on the dash of my truck on a 90F+ day and let them bake there for about 30 minutes. To say these rounds were hot, would be an understatement. I could barely hold them to load them into the magazine. Then I fired them to see if I saw any signs of pressure. All was good, so I had no worries when things heated up in Africa. I realize this was not a scientific experiment, that the rifle itself acted as a bit of a heat sink and I did not actually measure the temperature of the rounds, but at least it lifted one worry from my mind.

Swift A-Frame ammo?

DF

If so, we now know they’re loaded with IMR-4064.

I’ve searched around on the web, not extensive, but have read reports where 4166 didn’t prove as accurate as 4064. Some say it’s as accurate. 4166 has decoppering agents, which may be of benefit. It may be more temp stable, but evidently 4064 isn’t that bad.

In my current situation, I think I’m going with Bill’s protocol using 4064. If they use it in their Swift A-Frame ammo, it’s good enough for me.

Their Breakaway Solids cost around $5.80 each. That’s right, each bullet. Reportedly a loaded Swift round cost nearly ten bucks. Glad I’m a hand loader. I hope those solids are as good as they say. They better be at that price.

DF

Dirt, yes, the high temperature exposed tests that I ran was with Swift A-frame bullets. However, they were handloads, not loaded factory ammo.

I checked my reloading info, and I was using 79gr. of RL15 with the 400gr. Swift A-Frame. For solids, I used the Northfork flat point solid and bumped the powder up to 80gr. for that. I know you're most likely going with 4064, so that info probably doesn't help. I did a lot of work with 4064 in the .416 Rem, but I was using the 370 gr. (I think) Northfork soft point for that work. I was never able to get consistent accuracy with the NF soft, so abandoned that and went with the Swift A-frame. Looking back, I'm amazed and how much $ I spent trying to make the NF bullet work for me. Lots of rounds downrange!

By the way, in case you didn't already have the info, my old (#1) Swift reloading manual shows a maximum load of 78 gr. of IMR4064 for the 400 gr. A-frame at 2409 fps and says that it is at 96% load density.

Great info, thanks.

I'm trying to take the path of least resistance, getting to an end product with min resources and the least amount of time getting battered on a sitting bench by a big gun.

I think going with Bill's protocol makes the most sense. I even thought about loading his factory data and going to the range, which would be exactly what I would have, buying his loaded ammo. But, I'll do as he said.

DF

Interesting accuracy report, NF vs. SAF... I'm curious now, accuracy: NPT vs SAF. Guess I may get a chance to find out. I think terminal performance should be pretty close. If the Partition out shoots the A-Frame, I will report. If so, I hope Bill doesn't read about it....

I'm surprised that he didn't have RL-15 in his load data. Seemed he included about everything but RL-15. RL-15 has sorta been the gold standard for the .375 H&H for years, and generally what works well in the .375 H&H, works well in the .416 Rem. He's using IMR 4064 in his loaded ammo. So, in their testing, 4064 must have come out on top. I'm not gonna try to re-invent that wheel. I have a full, older can of 4064 that I'm going to start with; powder looks good, smells good. Will load Africa ammo from a newer can. Not sure it's better, just newer.

DF

Yes, it is interesting that they are using 4064 in their factory loads. Who knows what the real reason or deciding factor might have been? It could have come down to price, availability or something else. Their load data shows 79 gr. of RL15 being the max load at 2430 fps. Interestingly, they show Varget as being the most accurate powder listed. Max load for Varget is 77.5 gr. at 2386 fps. H4895 is right behind Varget at 2376 fps.

I've never fired a factory loaded round from my 416, just handloads. However, I never did try the Nosler Partition in it. I'm definitely interested in hearing how the NPT and SAF compare in your trials.

From what I've gathered, the terminal performance of the SAF and NPT are pretty close. I'd think which one seems to shoot better should be the one to go with.

My bud is more of a NPT fan, although he has successfully used the SAF out of his .338 Win Mag in Alaska. So, if the SAF seems to be the better shooter, I think he'd go with it without reservations.

Would like opinions and ideas on which one of those two you guys would pick, assuming equivalent accuracy...

DF

I’d pick the A-Frame just because I’ve used it before.

I'd pick the A-frame as well, just because I've used it and trust it. No flies on the NPT, though, so I'm in agreement with you that whichever is the better shooter is the one to go with.

Whenever I start debating myself (in my head) about what bullet to use for buff, I recall an article, or maybe a book chapter, that Craig Boddington wrote many years ago where he talked about using Sierra Gamekings (I think) in the 375 H&H to take buffalo back when "premium" bullets were a rarity. So I figure, if GameKings will work and did work years ago, I shouldn't worry myself about whether to use a TSX, Partition, or A-frame too much. Put a bullet where it needs to go, and you should be able to kill them just fine.

Bill loads his rifle with A-Frames, has solids on his belt. He takes his shot or shots with softs, cycles remaining softs on the ground for staff to pick up. He loads solids from his belt to finish the hunt. I don’t think I’d want to be standing there with an empty gun. Maybe he can load pretty fast. Seems to me that could be a hole in his program.

I’d think two softs then two solids. Drop two solids, top it off with a soft, one soft up the spout. Two softs then two solids. Doubt you’d get more than two soft shots before it was solid time. I’ve never hunted buff, he has. So, his experience is worth serious consideration. My thinking is just theoretical, his is from experience.

How do you guys who use softs and solids handle that?

DF

I would just shoot 350 grain TSX and forget the solids. But thats just me

No argument from me. I’d probably do the same.

But give the parameters of solids and softs, I’m delivering what has been requested.

DF

I have never hunted buffalo, but I would load a soft point in the chamber then follow it up with solids.

When I was in Africa, my PH wanted a soft in the chamber and solids in the magazine. I've had many other people tell me that they were given the same instruction by their PH. This is the "old school" way of thinking, I suppose, prior to the advent of really tough softs, but this was in 2007 when we had good, premium bullets. In any case, my PH did not care at all what my thinking was regarding using all soft points. He didn't care if they were TSX's or North Fork cup points, or wax! It was a single soft point and then all solids, no debate allowed. He later told me that his thinking on this was you only get one real good shot opportunity, on the first shot. After that, it was usually a rodeo and a guy would be very lucky to get another shot into the same buff. And, if he did get a second shot into him, that he wanted to break the animal down right now, so if you had a hip shot or Texas heart shot, etc, that a solid had more of a chance of penetrating where it might do some actual damage and stop the animal. He admitted that there were instances where a buff, upon getting hit well, might just stand there or take a few steps and stop, and in that case, another soft would do just fine. But, he liked to error on the side of caution and have a better chance of stopping the buff right now with a solid.

I will say that at one point we were trailing a buff that we thought had a limp or damage to one of his hind legs. When we caught up with him, we could see that he had been caught in a poacher's snare and was wounded. The government game scout gave us the OK to shoot him and not count him on our license or quota. So, my PH had me unload the soft and put all solids in because he wanted the bull to go down right now. I shot him in the shoulder and down he went. When we got to him, bubbles from his lungs were coming out the entrance hole. I was quite impressed with the performance of a single solid on a buffalo. Knocked him down right now and he was dead before we got up to him. Of course, there were no other buffalo with this lone bull, so there was no worry about pass-throughs wounding another animal.

By the way, I think your friends idea of cycling all of his rounds through his rifle and then loading solids is pretty ridiculous. I would think a PH would think the same thing. I'd want to continue shooting with whatever bullet I had loaded before the animals are gone. Then, if you want, you can load more ammo of whatever bullet you desire. But to stand there cycling ammo without firing makes no sense to me.

I got that unload/load drill from Bill, head honcho at Swift. Seemed to work for him. Empty rifle with a wounded buff nearby doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. But I’m not a buff hunter, he is. And he makes the bullets. I’m just a reloader. Bill was very helpful with technical info, so I’m in no position to criticize him. He knows a lot more about all this than I do.

DF

Going to try and shoot my 416 Rem this weekend. 350gr Speers and testing H4895, IMR 4451 and TAC velocities. Hoping to get between 2500-2600fps with 350gr bullets.

Once I determine the powder that is giving desired velocity. I will then develop a go to load with the 350gr TSX and file in the Dakota Arms open sights that were recently installed.

I know you are just working up bullets and loads based on the PH's wishes. But I am not going to screw around with solids, and if I ever make it back to Africa for another buffalo, solids will not accompany me.

I can possibly understand the use of solids behind the leaded premium bullets, but I see no reason when using a mono.

I don't understand people that don't make their own decisions about what they are going to use on THEIR hunt.
The hunter is paying the PH therefore the the PH works for the hunter. The PH can suggest but the hunter has the right to make his own choice of bullets

In this case we have an experienced hunter who has hunted Africa and Alaska. It’s just his first buff hunt, so he trying to go with the PH plan. Maybe once he has more experience with hunting buff; he’s not a Loony and thus less inclined to break out of the mold. He is a Partition proponent, has killed a bunch of stuff with them. Has used A-Frames a few times.

DF

I've always had consistency issues accuracy-wise with all Partions. I suspect you'll get slightly better penetration with the NPs and that is a definite plus, but i had no issues with the two buffs and the 400gr A Frame.