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I have decided to take the plunge and make a dream a reality. Plans are for leopard first, then kudu...leopard being the unpredictable animal that it is, I'm looking for some ideas on where to start as far as choosing the right outfitter to put the odds in my favor.

I've talked to a a few members here, and I know that I don't want a "canned hunt" of any sort, but also want to have high chances of getting my leopard on the first go around. For those of you that have "been there and done that"....please feel free to weigh in and drop some names, areas, etc. as
it would be much appreciated.

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Ky, I have no experience with Leopard myself, so can't really help you out. However, I did see in the most recent issue of Peterson's Hunting (March 2021, with the wolf on the cover) that Craig Boddington gives a rundown on hunting Leopard and discusses countries and methods. Also, not to necessarily beat the drum for Boddington, but he does have a website where he provides his recommended outfitters of which several are for Leopard. I only gravitate in that direction because he is probably one of the most experienced African hunters in the US and he isn't afraid to share his opinions. Hope that helps.

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John Sharp. Your search has ended.

If you can't get a booking with John, then I would seek out Norman Crooks (Pro Safari).


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Unless the trip gets messed up by COVID again, I will be hunting leopard with John in 6 weeks. Hunt was pushed back from last year due to the COVID. Cant' imagine how you could have a bad hunt with John.


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Lindon Stanton Mbababala Safari's in Zim. He has areas in the North and South. Southern Zim historically has the larger bodied cats, but if you're playing the odds up North is a better choice.


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Have done 3 leopard hunts of 3 weeks each. First two were in Zim (Matetsi and Chirisa) and never got a shot.

Third hunt was in Namibia with Dirk DeBod. Got my leopard on the first day during daylight in the late afternoon.

My advice is to go somewhere where you can legally hunt after dark. Pre-baiting is good.

I shot my leopard with a .338 Win, but a .30/06 with a 180 grain Nosler Partition is all you need. A scope with an illuminated reticle is a plus.

Very intense, technical hunt. I envy you!

Good hunting!

P.S. Shot a 57" kudu on the same hunt.

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Originally Posted by Winchestermodel70
Have done 3 leopard hunts of 3 weeks each. First two were in Zim (Matetsi and Chirisa) and never got a shot.

Third hunt was in Namibia with Dirk DeBod. Got my leopard on the first day during daylight in the late afternoon.

My advice is to go somewhere where you can legally hunt after dark. Pre-baiting is good.


Very intense, technical hunt. I envy you!

Good hunting!

P.S. Shot a 57" kudu on the same hunt.



I keep telling him to go to Namibia... grin


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Book with Atcheson’s in Montana. He has several good leopard outfitters. He will probably recommend one in Namibia.


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Zimbabwe is a good place.

I was hunting plains game in Zimbabwe and was able to shoot animals for incoming leopard hunters. 3 hunters to be point on. All 3 hunters had their leopards within 3 days.

Touch Africa with Jonathan Collett as the PH. Jonathan hunt the same area that John Sharp PH's out of.

Best option Bubye in Zim

https://www.touchafricasafaris.com

Another area to consider is Namibia.

I have hunted with Pieter Scott and Dian and they have limited leopard tag's however he was right at 100% in obtain clients a leopard.

http://www.omuwiwe.co.za

Both of these PH will give you a better than average chance of a good leopard.

The more days you have to be in the field the better chance you have in obtaining a good leopard.

Key in talking to any PH is pre baiting give you a head start on your hunt. 3 days of pre baiting and then placing game cameras to see what are on the bait puts you ahead of the game.

If you are keen on shooting your own bait animals, and doing that part of the hunt, that may take 3 or more days for the leopard to find the bait, so depending on how many days you have booked. 10 days, 14 days or 21 days you decide. Now the more bait animals you put up the better, With Jonathan we put up 13 different bait locations and had 9 that were active. however only 3 were considered big male cats that he would allowed to be hunted.

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I also suggest Namibia. Good numbers of cats, good habitat, good outfitters.

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ultimatetanzaniasafaris, talk to Charl, Mbarangandu Game Reserve, i shot my leopard in broad daylight, plenty of leopards and they're not skittish, four leopards were taken there last year on a very short season.

400 H&H, 1.5-5 Leupold, with a homemade 400gr hollow point from a Swift A Frame bullet, 70 yards, center punched both shoulders, he was dead before his feet left the limb.


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Originally Posted by Ky221
I have decided to take the plunge and make a dream a reality. Plans are for leopard first, then kudu...leopard being the unpredictable animal that it is, I'm looking for some ideas on where to start as far as choosing the right outfitter to put the odds in my favor.

I've talked to a a few members here, and I know that I don't want a "canned hunt" of any sort, but also want to have high chances of getting my leopard on the first go around. For those of you that have "been there and done that"....please feel free to weigh in and drop some names, areas, etc. as
it would be much appreciated.


Canned hunt for leopard. Never heard of such a thing but anything is possible I'm sure.

Good luck in your quest.

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Originally Posted by 6MMWASP
Originally Posted by Ky221
I have decided to take the plunge and make a dream a reality. Plans are for leopard first, then kudu...leopard being the unpredictable animal that it is, I'm looking for some ideas on where to start as far as choosing the right outfitter to put the odds in my favor.

I've talked to a a few members here, and I know that I don't want a "canned hunt" of any sort, but also want to have high chances of getting my leopard on the first go around. For those of you that have "been there and done that"....please feel free to weigh in and drop some names, areas, etc. as
it would be much appreciated.


Canned hunt for leopard. Never heard of such a thing but anything is possible I'm sure.

Good luck in your quest.




I've read of cats that were sedated.......I'm not sure of the validity of it, only wanting to make it known if it is such a thing.....that I want no part of it

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Yes, canned leopard hunts have happened. Quick background.

About 8-10 years ago, in Namibia the procedure for getting a leopard permit was different than now. CITES export permits are issued to each govt . The govts are allowed to regulate how the permitting is done in each country Previously, the Namibian govt got is annual CITES allocation of leopard export permits - 500 or so, and they were all held by the MET (Ministry of Environment and Tourism). The actual lic/permit was not obtained by the PH/Outfitter for the client until AFTER the leopard was shot. If more leopard were shot then the govt had CITES permits for that year, the skins were just held over until the following year's quota was allocated. Those previously left over cats got the first permits in the new allocation. The other thing that was going on was IF RSA used up it's leopard CITES allocation, RSA PH's/Outfitters were smuggling skins into Namibia and paying Namibian PH's/Outfitters to pull the CITES permit in their name for the RSA client as though it was shot in Namibia. Here's how that entire thing came unraveled.

There was a PH/Outfitter in Namibia who advertised 100% guaranteed leopard hunts and would actually shoot 5-6 or more a year and had been doing so for a good number of years. Because of his reputation and "100%" success rate he was one of the highest priced leopard hunts in the country. He did have a large game farm of his own and he did hunt several other surrounding properties as well. During the off season he was also known as being the guy the cattle ranchers would call to come and live trap problem leopards and get them off their property - he'd even pay the landowners under the table. He was telling the landowners he was taking the cats to different communal lands or National Parks and turning them loose. What he was actually doing was taking them to his place. If they were females, he'd turn them loose on his property (would help draw males). He had also built some large holding cages and kept a number of the biggest Toms he'd live trapped there. So.......

An unsuspecting client would show up and they would actually conduct a "proper hunt" - pre baits, blinds and all and if the client got a cat, it was all good. Now, if it was getting down to the last couple of days, he'd tell his workers to heavily sedate one of the caged cats and place it in a certain place, either up on a bolder on a kopje or a tree limb by a certain time. Then when he and the client were out checking baits or going to/from one of the blinds, he'd "spot" the cat and make a big show of it all and how the cat was "sleeping" because it must have just fed heavily on a nearby bait. They'd ease out of the bakkie and the client would shoot the cat. They get to the cat, it's dead and the client isn't any the wiser.

How this all came unraveled is, every year at or near the end of the hunting season all the PH's get together and have a big party. Well, this guy got SERIOUSLY drunk and started telling the story of the American client he'd had that year. He was laughing about the clients general lack of hunting/shooting skill, being so fat he couldn't walk more than 100m from the bakkie, snored all night in the blind etc. As he goes on, the hunt gets to the ending days and low and behold, they see a leopard sleeping on a bolder part way up a kopje maybe 75m away. Client takes a shot from the back of the bakkie and misses. Hits the bolder and the cat is still "asleep". "Your in luck, shoot again!". Second shot misses. "Quick, shoot again!". Third shot finally hits the cat and it rolls around and off the rock. Congratulations all around etc. This guy is laughing like crazy while telling the story and drinking even more and then guys listening start asking him questions and he spills the beans about his cages etc.

Long story short. He's turned into the MET, looses his PH license and his property is delisted as a registered game farm meaning he can't have clients hunting on it at all, ever. At the same time, the other Namibian PH/Outfitters pitched a bitch about the number of Namibian permits being issued to RSA clients etc. As a result, leopard hunting in Namibia was closed for a year or a little more. When it was reopened the current system was put in place.

Currently, the country still gets it's CITES quota. The MET then allocates the quota to the landowners (maybe one permit) but they must apply to get an allocation the year before. They have to submit a fairly detailed letter on the number of leopard they believe are in the area and on their property and it's also based on if they received a permit the previous year and filled it or not - the 2021 allocations were just released a few weeks ago. The actual permit is still held by the MET and the PH has to go there and get the permit filled out in the clients name BEFORE the client even arrives in country. If the client is not successful, the permit is returned to the MET. A landowner can legally sell his quota/allocation to another PH but, the process is the same, has to be filled out in the clients name before the client arrives in country. This has shutdown the RSA cheating that was going on previously. Since the new procedures were put in place, its not unusual for the county to not full it's CITES export quota.

So, the story above does reflect that a "canned" leopard hunt can happen. PH/Outfitters who claim 100% success rates might need to have a few questions asked. So, the previous year, he gets one tag and one client and fills the tag - 100% for the year. Gets one tag and two or three clients and last client fills the tag - PH/Outfitter is 100% for the year but not the clients. PH/Outfitter gets a tag and provides the client with a sold shot opportunity and the client misses or declines the shot for some reason - PH/Outfitter can still claim 100% success because they are only obligated to getting the client a shot opportunity but, not putting the cat in the salt. Another possibility is like my friend Jan with Sebra Hunts. Last year (Sept) he had a leopard client, 21-day hunt, and the client had two solid legitimate shot opportunities and declined both times. Can Jan claim a 200% success rate? All I'm saying is be cautious and ask detailed questions and the old "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably isn't" might apply.

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Originally Posted by Ky221
I have decided to take the plunge and make a dream a reality. Plans are for leopard first, then kudu...leopard being the unpredictable animal that it is, I'm looking for some ideas on where to start as far as choosing the right outfitter to put the odds in my favor.

I've talked to a a few members here, and I know that I don't want a "canned hunt" of any sort, but also want to have high chances of getting my leopard on the first go around. For those of you that have "been there and done that"....please feel free to weigh in and drop some names, areas, etc. as
it would be much appreciated.



If you want a leopard hunt where you’ll have a very high likelihood of killing a good Tom on your first safari, you will want to check into the operators in Zambia’s Luangwa Valley. The various PH’s there have an exceptionally high success rate. One of the best is Johnny DuPlooy, who owns Muchinga Safaris. He has the Chifunda concession, which has excellent buffalo, leopard and lion. Kudu, bushbuck, roan, crocs, hippo and other game. Mark Young, Mark’s Exclusive Adventures; books for him and is worth calling to discuss Johnny’s leopard hunts. (307) 250-1156.

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have you talked with Mark at Ahhsom African Safaris out of Wall Wall Wa?


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Originally Posted by FOsteology
John Sharp. Your search has ended.

If you can't get a booking with John, then I would seek out Norman Crooks (Pro Safari).



Another vote for John in the Bubye Conservancy, if Zim is your choice. There are many other great ones out there, but I've hunted with John twice and without reservation, you'll not find a more ethical, decent and pleasurable PH to hunt with.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by FOsteology
John Sharp. Your search has ended.

If you can't get a booking with John, then I would seek out Norman Crooks (Pro Safari).



Another vote for John in the Bubye Conservancy, if Zim is your choice. There are many other great ones out there, but I've hunted with John twice and without reservation, you'll not find a more ethical, decent and pleasurable PH to hunt with.


John does have an excellent reputation and is widely respected by other PH’s.

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I will be with John in May. We have leopard on the mind. This is a postponed trip from last July cancellations. My second safari with John and his super staff. You just cannot find a better gentleman to spend a couple of weeks in the tall grass. If you have questions I will be glad to share my experiences.

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One excellent place that has hardly been mentioned (only once so far) is Tanzania. Yes, Zimbabwe has very good leopard hunting if you go with the right PH (I’m surprised Wayne Grant hasn’t been mentioned), Namibia has some but isn’t as widespread as people think (personally I would not consider Namibia as I believe there are much better options), Zambia is very good, with Luangwa Valley (Johnny DuPlooy of Muchinga Adventures)and Kafue areas (Richard Bell-Cross of Pro-hunt Zambia) both excellent but nobody talks much about Tanzania. Perhaps that is because of the cost of a Tanzanian safari. But...

There are some top shelf operations in Tanzania that have outstanding leopard hunting. As previously mentioned, Charl Van Rooyen has Mbaragandu and Nalika concessions, which border the southern side of the Selous. They are enjoying fantastic success on nice leopards. However, there are a couple others worthy of mention as they enjoy fantastic success on daytime leopards (personally, I would not ever do a nighttime leopard hunt. I’ve shot 2 leopards in daytime, so perhaps I’m jaded).

Mike Fell hunts Maswa North, which borders the northwest side of Serengeti National Park. He enjoys a very high success rate and kills some huge leopards, 180 lbs+ huge. He is excellent, though expensive, but produces fantastic results. My son and I hunted buffalo out of his camp in December of 2019, and though we were not hunting leopard, we saw sign in many places and it was common to hear one ‘sawing’ at night from camp. Also heard lions roaring more nights than not.

The other PH in Tanzania is Alan Vincent, who hunts Mlele in western Tanzania. I’ve known Alan since first hunting with his father, Roy, back in 1983. Alan grew up watching his dad hunt leopards in some great areas of Zimbabwe and learned well. I’m booked to hunt with him this fall, and while I did not originally intend to hunt another leopard, I’m mainly focused on 3 buffalo, Alan strongly urged me to include leopard as he told me Mlele is one of the best leopard areas he’s ever been in. He’s hunted all over Zimbabwe and Tanzania over the last 28 years, so he has a good basis for comparison. The area had been vacant for a couple years (Robin Hurt had it before) before Alan took it over last year. He only ran one hunt in there due to the pandemic but told me that, while checking baits mid-day, they twice drove up to bait trees to find nice Tom’s laying beneath the trees. He told me these are the least spooky leopards he’s ever seen, so I added another leopard onto our list to hunt. I’ll be the last hunter of the year, so will update in November when back home.

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Originally Posted by CAelknuts
One excellent place that has hardly been mentioned (only once so far) is Tanzania. Yes, Zimbabwe has very good leopard hunting if you go with the right PH, Namibia has some but isn’t as widespread as people think (personally I would not consider Namibia as I believe there are much better options), Zambia is very good, with Luangwa Valley (Johnny DuPlooy of Muchinga Adventures)and Kafue areas (Richard Bell-Cross of Pro-hunt Zambia) both excellent but nobody talks much about Tanzania. Perhaps that is because of the cost of a Tanzanian safari. But... there are some operations in Tanzania that have outstanding leopard hunting. As previously mentioned, Charl Van Rooyen has Mbaragandu and Nalika concessions, which border the southern side of the Selous. They are enjoying fantastic success on nice leopards. However, there are a couple others worthy of mention as they enjoy fantastic success on daytime leopards (personally, I would not ever do a nighttime leopard hunt. I’ve shot 2 leopards in daytime, so perhaps I’m jaded).

Mike Fell hunts Maswa North, which borders the northwest side of Serengeti National Park. He enjoys a very high success rate and kills some huge leopards, 180 lbs+ huge. He is excellent, though expensive, but produces fantastic results. My son and I hunted buffalo out of his camp in December of 2019, and though we were not hunting leopard, we saw sign in many places and it was common to hear one ‘sawing’ at night from camp. Also heard lions roaring more nights than not.

The other PH in Tanzania is Alan Vincent, who hunts Mlele in western Tanzania. I’ve known Alan since first hunting with his father, Roy, back in 1983. Alan grew up watching his dad hunt leopards in some great areas of Zimbabwe and learned well. I’m booked to hunt with him this fall, and while I did not originally intend to hunt another leopard, I’m mainly focused on 3 buffalo, Alan strongly urged me to include leopard as he told me Mlele is one of the best leopard areas he’s ever been in. He’s hunted all over Zimbabwe and Tanzania over the last 28 years, so he has a good basis for comparison. The area had been vacant for a couple years (Robin Hurt had it before) before Alan took it over last year. He only ran one hunt in there due to the pandemic but told me that, while checking baits mid-day, they twice drove up to bait trees to find nice Tom’s laying beneath the trees. He told me these are the least spooky leopards he’s ever seen, so I added another peopled onto our list to hunt. I’ll be the last hunter of the year, so will update in November when back home.


Spot on as well.


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Doug Duckworth of Mokore Safaris, a well respected PH and safari company, has just posted a cancellation offer on AR, for a leopard in Matabeleland, nice chance for a big Tom. All in, about $21,000.

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You have been given some excellent advice. I would add that this cancellation hunt was just posted recently and you would have a high chance of success.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/canceled-leopard-hunt-zimbabwe-2021.62791/
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I think you should go for more than just leopard.

In 2011 I went for a "big 4" safari in Zim. I shot elephant, buffalo, lion, hippo (for bait), zebra, and some impala (for bait). Never got a shot at a leopard.

While driving around checking baits for leopard, you might cross some buffalo tracks worth following or, as we did, blunder into a bull elephant track good enough to follow.

Sadly, it's almost imporssible for Americans to import lion or elephant since then but you get the idea.

Some of the Namibia hunts have higher success with leopard but that's about the only game you can hunt except warthog for bait.


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Thanks to all that took the time to chime in.

I ended up booking for Zimbabwe in august of 2022.

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Originally Posted by Ky221
Thanks to all that took the time to chime in.

I ended up booking for Zimbabwe in august of 2022.

Who with if I may ask..


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by Ky221
Thanks to all that took the time to chime in.

I ended up booking for Zimbabwe in august of 2022.

Who with if I may ask..





PH name- Gunter Bierbaumer Leadwood African Adventures.

An acquaintance of mine just finished a lion/Buffalo/rhino hunt with this outfit.

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Thank you and good luck!


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Thank you and good luck!



Thanks.

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As M3taco pointed out, Jan du Plessis of Sebra Hunting Safaris in Kamanjab Namibia has a Leopard hunt on offer for $17,500 all in for a 14 day hunt. I’ve hunted Plainsgame FIVE times with Jan, and can attest that he has lots of Leopards on his ranch. In addition, Jan has excellent relations with all the neighboring ranchers, so if Leopard hunting is slow on his property, he can move his hunter to an active area where a big Tom Leopard is hitting the bait. I’ve never hunted Leopards with Jan because of my limited financial resources, but I’ve shot bait animals for him (Gemsbok, baboons, Zebra) and checked baits while out pursuing Plainsgame. An additional benefit is the gourmet food prepared by Jan’s wife Mariesje.


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Some good recommendations in here, especially Sharp and the Duckworths (I have hunted all three of the Duckworth's areas).

Shaun Buffee is another good PH for leopard, he loves hunting them. I took a leopard in the daylight after sitting in the blind for only a few hours with Shaun in the Omay. We worked hard getting to that point and it was a great hunt. It was actually 10 years tomorrow that I shot that leopard. I have not talked to Shaun in two years but I believe he is still hunting on Bubye Valley Conservancy.

Keep in mind when booking Zim you have to hunt with a licensed PH and to be licensed you pretty much have to be a Zim citizen. Don't let anybody bs you on this. And be careful of areas, while Zim is a great place to hunt there is still some bad things that go on there.

This is from the Zim PH association and is a good place to start.

Zim Info

Good luck with your choice, I love hunting in Zimbabwe. If Zim is your choice try to see Victoria Falls. It is worth the trip.


Edit:

I should have read the entire thread first, I see you booked in Zim with what appears to be a South African company PH. Not saying anything is wrong but I would proceed with caution, make sure a fully licensed Zimbabwe PH is with you the entire hunt. Contact the ZPGA through the link above if you have questions.


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Leopard hunting is very specialized. There are plenty of good PH’s for Buffalo but I believe there are far fewer PHs that are really good on leopard.

In Zimbabwe you can hunt leopard day or night on private land but only day time in Safari areas. If it important for you to kill a leopard during the day some areas will be really difficult. The cats in some areas are notoriously smart and in general will be hunted at night.

Also in Zimbabwe size of the cat will vary greatly by area. You can kill a heavy cat with a big skull in the Save or the BVC but if you hunt in the valley the cat will more than likely be much smaller. A big cat in the BVC will go 180 plus pounds, in the valley maybe 140.

A good area with plenty of bait and a true leopard expert PH will save you many days and nights in a blind. Having a PH that is full time on the concession is important. They will know the area, know where the cats are, and know their patterns.

It is definitely not like tracking Buffalo. Hunting leopard can be grueling, monotonous, boring, and I can promise you the gut bucket will begin to smell after a couple of days.

Anyway these posts brought back some fond memories.

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

Last edited by Mike70560; 05/05/21.
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What Mike says is 100% spot on. Personally if I'm hunting in ZIM, I'd go with a Zim PH.


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A few probably dumb questions about baited Leopard hunts.
Hunter usually shoots a bunch of various bait animals.Does hunter pay for them individually or are they in the package?
Does a Leopard prefer one bait animal over another or don't they care?
Gotta be one tense experience making the shot !
As an aside anyone hearing anything about the daily Delta flights to JHB?

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I have to completely agree with Mike & Jorge about hunting with a Zimbabwean when hunting in Zimbabwe. I wouldn’t do it any other way.

In answer to hlg’s question, bait animals are often allocated as part of a leopard hunt, but you do pay for each bait you shoot. You do not shoot ‘a bunch’ of various bait, just what is needed. Impala and warthogs are common baits that leopards love, baboons less common but also a good leopard bait. Interesting point, Alan Vincent told me we will be using some zebra for leopard bait on my hunt later this year, he says it makes excellent leopard bait. When I’ve hunted leopards in the past, we used only impala and warthog and had great success in getting nice cats on bait.

As for it being a tense experience making the shot, not really. It’s probably the easiest shot you’ll make on your hunt. Close, rifle well supported with sights set where the cat is expected to stand. It’s an easy shot as long as you manage your nerves.

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"I have to completely agree with Mike & Jorge about hunting with a Zimbabwean when hunting in Zimbabwe. I wouldn’t do it any other way."
+3, or is it +4?

Just got back from my leopard hunt with John Sharp. He strongly prefers Zebra for bait. Supposedly lasts longer in the heat and more meat. 4 baits per zebra. Shot 3 zebra at the beginning of the hunt and then didn't worry about getting bait after that.

The only thing difficult about the shot is managing your nerves, as CAelknuts said. I for sure didn't want to jerk the trigger or make a mistake on placement and get somebody chewed on. Got my cat on the 12th night. 39 yd shot in the moonlight. Hunting on BVC, so night hunting allowed.


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I didn't realize this thread had been re-kindled....my mistake.

So here's the scoop. The PH I'm hunting with "Gunter Bierbaumer" ,We spoke just today; and I had a few questions for him. He assured me that there will be a Zimbabwean PH present as well as a game scout.

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Originally Posted by gunner500
ultimatetanzaniasafaris, talk to Charl, Mbarangandu Game Reserve, i shot my leopard in broad daylight, plenty of leopards and they're not skittish, four leopards were taken there last year on a very short season.

400 H&H, 1.5-5 Leupold, with a homemade 400gr hollow point from a Swift A Frame bullet, 70 yards, center punched both shoulders, he was dead before his feet left the limb.


I see this threads still rolling along, again, big, dumb, and plentiful leopards, shot mine one hour after daybreak on the second setting, happens on a regular basis there according to my PH Gawie, 100% success rate cant be beat.


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A lot of good advice. Leopard is hard but a PH that is a cat guy will get it done.
I have been twice for leopard.

1st was with dogs in Zim - fantastic and great fun. My son and I each killed one on day 7 and 8 of the trip. Exciting.

2nd was in TZ with baits. No cats seen or on bait in 14 days.

So, choose wisely. I would hunt with dogs again in a heartbeat.

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+1 They have an area up north that has big leopard.
Originally Posted by BOWHUNR
Lindon Stanton Mbababala Safari's in Zim. He has areas in the North and South. Southern Zim historically has the larger bodied cats, but if you're playing the odds up North is a better choice.


Last edited by swiftshot; 06/06/21.
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