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We’ve been having this conversation a lot here locally.

I don’t think you can price NR elk tags so high that a quota is not filled. Then the question is, is each state ok with adding to the problem of it becoming a rich mans sport.

In NM, we have a goofy land owner authorization program, in a recent audit it found close to 75% of them are converted by NR’s. The authorizations range from the low side of $2,500 to $10,000+, this is on top of the NR lic.



Originally Posted by duckcall
I have a serious question for the resident hunters that want to see non resident numbers drop or have them pay an astronomical price that will keep people like me from making the trip anymore. Non resident fees make up a large percentage of revenue for your F&G departments, so would you be willing to have your tag fees increased by $150-200 to offset the lost revenue? Would you want your fees to stay the same and have services reduced? I am just trying to get a handle on the different perspectives, as I live in a state where non residents flock to to deer hunt, and here many of the same opinions expressed here by locals.


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Originally Posted by duckcall
I have a serious question for the resident hunters that want to see non resident numbers drop or have them pay an astronomical price that will keep people like me from making the trip anymore. Non resident fees make up a large percentage of revenue for your F&G departments, so would you be willing to have your tag fees increased by $150-200 to offset the lost revenue?


Until the price for tags gets so high that Preference Points are no longer needed and there are surplus tags available on opening day, there won't be a loss of revenue to G&F or the G/O's. The state G&F, G/O's, and resident hunters couldn't possibly care less that someone doesn't like their NR tag/license/permit prices.

MT proved that in '11 when they eliminated all guaranteed outfitter tags and raised the Non-Resident price of their big-game combo tag from $675 to $1K, deer tags went from $450ish to just under $700. There were surplus big-game combo tags available essentially OTC up through opening day for 4-5 years. There was a great wailing, moaning, and gnashing of teeth from folks who'd "hunted there forever" being suddenly priced out. Lots of, "That's nuts, I'll never go back, blah, blah, blah."

Prior to the lottery and price changes of 2011, a NR could draw the big-game combo tags roughly every other year and deer tags were out 3-4 years. There were thousands of folks who basically told MT to piss up a rope and they either stopped hunting western big-game, or, lots of them headed for other states. The point-creep in other states for deer and elk and to a lessor extent pronghorn went nuts. A NR Region G deer tag in WY that used to take 2-3 yrs to draw now takes 5-7 the same thing has happened all over the state and all over the West.

Back to MT, 2014 my friend bought a deer tag essentially OTC in July because there were leftovers. 2015, there were folks who didn't draw NR Deer tags in the general lottery because the word was out. You could hunt in MT right away without waiting the better part of a decade to build points. The $1K combo tags lagged that by about 2yrs but by 2017, there were folks getting turned down in the general lottery for $1K combo tags as well. MT is now looking at another potential price increase.

Western big game tags are essentially like ammo or reloading components right now. They're in short supply, people are willing to pay higher prices, in fact, people are willing to pay through the nose just for the privilege of standing in line.

So I'll end the same way I began. Until there are surplus tags on opening day, the G&F and G/O's aren't losing a dime and neither them, nor the resident hunters give a rodent's-behind if you don't like the cost of a permit/license/tag.


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Originally Posted by bwinters
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by Kenneth


Your statement of CO catering to NR was idiotic.



Your right, Colorado isn’t the fall back plan for every elk hunter in the country that doesn’t draw in a state that doesn’t offer UNLIMITED OTC elk tags. Jesus.....


Again, not true.

Never in my life have I went to CO for Elk because my plans for a different state didn't pan out,

I also do not know of any other person who has went to CO because his plans for a different state didn't pan out.

What you're trying to imply is a very, very, small amount of hunters that may make last minute changes.

Last time, that is not catering to NR.


Me and about 10-11 of my hunting buddies...........

How do you propose to introduce a new guy to elk hunting who has zero points? Tell him he needs to wait a couple years?


Waiting is the only logical option. I mean having unlimited no caps of how many hunters youll allow to trample all over hell and back in a given unit doesn’t just make for a chit experience , it also over crowds other species that are being hunted at the same time and worse case scenario is downright dangerous. There’s been at least 1 hunter killed by another hunter each of the last few years. It’s just too much! Each year I get a survey that asks the same questions in different ways but basically, “was there too much hunting pressure”? Duhhhhh CPWD knows it’s a chit show, but all they care about is money. They love that hydrant flow of non-res money!

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Originally Posted by bwinters
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by Kenneth


Your statement of CO catering to NR was idiotic.



Your right, Colorado isn’t the fall back plan for every elk hunter in the country that doesn’t draw in a state that doesn’t offer UNLIMITED OTC elk tags. Jesus.....


Again, not true.

Never in my life have I went to CO for Elk because my plans for a different state didn't pan out,

I also do not know of any other person who has went to CO because his plans for a different state didn't pan out.

What you're trying to imply is a very, very, small amount of hunters that may make last minute changes.

Last time, that is not catering to NR.


Me and about 10-11 of my hunting buddies...........

How do you propose to introduce a new guy to elk hunting who has zero points? Tell him he needs to wait a couple years?


Is there some regulation I haven't heard about in which virgin elk hunters from TN just magically get to cut to the front of the line?


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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub


Waiting is the only logical option. I mean having unlimited no caps of how many hunters youll allow to trample all over hell and back in a given unit doesn’t just make for a chit experience , it also over crowds other species that are being hunted at the same time and worse case scenario is downright dangerous. There’s been at least 1 hunter killed by another hunter each of the last few years. It’s just too much! Each year I get a survey that asks the same questions in different ways but basically, “was there too much hunting pressure”? Duhhhhh CPWD knows it’s a chit show, but all they care about is money. They love that hydrant flow of non-res money!


'cub, I'm sure you're an ok dude, but you're a terrible debater.

One hunter was killed? In all of Colorado? for the entire season? That would be considered a very safe season to all but one person, out of how many?

And that person was Res or NR? Gun safety issue most likely?

Your a resident for 4 years? How many years have you hunted CO? Not really a lengthy time frame there to tell me "all about CO"

I've been hunting CO since about '93, so tell me about YOUR 12 maybe 13 hunts there,

Not sure where your hunting but I've yet to see the crowded, unsafe conditions your trying to imply,


I did have one Deer hunt years back, ATV trails everywhere, that was a bit too much regarding traffic, of course Res outnumbered NR by a huge margin, so forget about the NR causing all the crowding.

Maybe 10 bulls here, just a fact that's all. Point being, Not sure who your trying to tell what..

Get your ass away from the road, And enjoy the Mountain.

Spotting a orange dot a mile away is not "downright dangerous"

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Kenneth you fail to realize the residents of a state "own" the wildlife, not the federal gov't. Wildlife is managed for our benefit not NR. Doesn't matter if it's on federal land or no , it is the state's wildlife.

As far as Colorado being backup for folks that don't draw, that is true. Take a look over on a Texas hunting forum. Thousands of OTC elk tags are sold every year to NR.

Also all those PP you been buying in Wyoming have never been a guarantee for a license as stated by WG&F, they merely give you better odds to draw. If you've been buying PP for a guaranteed tag then that's on you, read up before you buy.

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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Man I wish Colorado would do this! Sucks living in a state that caters to non-residents!


You should wish the leftards would move back to California, that would cut the states population in half.


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Originally Posted by Kenneth

'cub, I'm sure you're an ok dude, but you're a terrible debater.



Kenneth I’m not here to debate with you man, Colorado has a huge overcrowding problem, it’s not some secret insight of mine after only 4 years of hunting and living here, it’s the ongoing consensus. I know a lot of guys that don’t even hunt here and they live here and have most of their lives. They buy a preference point here and then go and hunt out of state in places where regardless of cost the experience is better. Or they have quit hunting all together. There are so many issues at play here that are going to make the hunting experience more disastrous ( ie point creep) the new apply for as many species as you want for hardly any money up front, that it’s only going to get worse, The state puts out herd numbers that none of the locals concur with and success rates are horrendous. The state might indicate 10% success in some units but they fail to tell you that 6% of that 10% takes place on private land hunts.

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Originally Posted by wytex


As far as Colorado being backup for folks that don't draw, that is true. Take a look over on a Texas hunting forum. Thousands of OTC elk tags are sold every year to NR.

.


Cmon now wytex, I’m idiotic and that’s not true! Right, spend 10 minutes on any online hunting forum, the Texas Hunting Forum, Rokslide, Big Game.net, everyone is being told just come to Colorado and you can hunt elk, no restrictions, no limit, pick your tag up at Walmart! I’ve hiked 6 miles from a trailhead and met more than 1/2 dozen guys bow hunting elk that weren’t from Colorado on a given day! It’s just my imagination though!

The issue is that states have transitioned from good sound wildlife management to a means of funding for the state and the quality of the animals, the quality of the experience, and herd management plays second fiddle to meeting a budget goal, it’s that simple! There’s all kinds of articles available discussing the economic goals of CPWD and wildlife management has nothing to do with it. The Parks side wants the most money, selling the tags is critical to fund the Parks side, not the wildlife side of the organization.

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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
The state puts out herd numbers that none of the locals concur with and success rates are horrendous. The state might indicate 10% success in some units but they fail to tell you that 6% of that 10% takes place on private land hunts.


That's true for all 50 states. Would that be a investigatory task the hunter should do in planning hunts?

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Texans may flood the Colorado woods, but Californians (at least those from N Cali) flood the Idaho elk fields, as Idaho has some unlimited NR areas. Washington folks flood north Idaho in the same manner. Vehicles and campers in every wide spot. It is not just Colorado that has the issue.

The best thing I ever did before leaving Idaho was buy a lifetime license, so my name is in the pool with the residents. That, and being 60% VA disabled, I get dirt cheap NR licenses there.

Am I part of the problem? Probably but it is what it is.



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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by Kenneth

'cub, I'm sure you're an ok dude, but you're a terrible debater.



Kenneth I’m not here to debate with you man, Colorado has a huge overcrowding problem,


Oh cut the crap out, years ago you spewed the same crap about Alaska being so crowed when you were a "resident" of Alaska...

Feel free to go back to Alaska Outdoors and read your same drivel,

Now you're another Resident in another state and you feel you should always have the entire area to yourself. Good luck with that.

It's true, some things never change.

I and 2 buds hunted CO for Elk first rifle in 2019, Tell me all about this overcrowding,

And to really piss you off, these 3 NR Cheese heads brought home 3 bulls in '19,

Enough of the woe is me crap.

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You win, your dick is bigger mine. Back to the original topic, good on Wyoming for doing something so few states will, prioritizing their residents over non-residents for a change! And remember resident hunters should shut the [bleep] up when voicing their opinions about deteriorating hunting conditions caused by excess non-resident hunters...., got it!

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Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Back to the original topic, good on Wyoming for doing something so few states will, prioritizing their residents over non-residents for a change!


Maine does exactly that with their moose program. It is not unique.

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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Texans may flood the Colorado woods, but Californians (at least those from N Cali) flood the Idaho elk fields, as Idaho has some unlimited NR areas. Washington folks flood north Idaho in the same manner. Vehicles and campers in every wide spot. It is not just Colorado that has the issue.

The best thing I ever did before leaving Idaho was buy a lifetime license, so my name is in the pool with the residents. That, and being 60% VA disabled, I get dirt cheap NR licenses there.

Am I part of the problem? Probably but it is what it is.


They come from everywhere to hunt Colorado. I’d agree it’s overcrowded. I started hunting Colorado in 2001, I don’t think it was less crowded then the difference is guys are hunting harder than the used to. I used to have several good spots in units I can draw fairly easy. Those great spots are no longer. guys are hiking in spike camps,rafting across rivers, navigating property lines..all of it. Getting tough to get away from them now.

They’re killing the deer quality in my favorite units. They say it’s to slow the spread of CWD. In 20 years I haven’t seen a sickly looking deer over there, but I’m not a biologist.. I don’t normally hunt elk there, but it’s a rare year I couldn’t fill a bull tag while deer hunting. Just gotta stay persistent, it’s a mental game as much as it is physical.

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Dunno what the rest of you guys pay in your home states...

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Plus we have the option of a second bear and cougar tag... freshwater, saltwater fishing extra, as is shrimp, clam, crab, ducks, pheasant etc...


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Originally Posted by rosco1
Originally Posted by T_Inman
Texans may flood the Colorado woods, but Californians (at least those from N Cali) flood the Idaho elk fields, as Idaho has some unlimited NR areas. Washington folks flood north Idaho in the same manner. Vehicles and campers in every wide spot. It is not just Colorado that has the issue.

The best thing I ever did before leaving Idaho was buy a lifetime license, so my name is in the pool with the residents. That, and being 60% VA disabled, I get dirt cheap NR licenses there.

Am I part of the problem? Probably but it is what it is.


They come from everywhere to hunt Colorado. I’d agree it’s overcrowded. I started hunting Colorado in 2001, I don’t think it was less crowded then the difference is guys are hunting harder than the used to. I used to have several good spots in units I can draw fairly easy. Those great spots are no longer. guys are hiking in spike camps,rafting across rivers, navigating property lines..all of it. Getting tough to get away from them now.

They’re killing the deer quality in my favorite units. They say it’s to slow the spread of CWD. In 20 years I haven’t seen a sickly looking deer over there, but I’m not a biologist.. I don’t normally hunt elk there, but it’s a rare year I couldn’t fill a bull tag while deer hunting. Just gotta stay persistent, it’s a mental game as much as it is physical.


A lot of truth in all of that, I am sure.
I wish I had a better answer for it all.



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EFI provided the reliability folks needed to make the long drives West. 75-80MPH Interstate's save folks 1/2-1.5 days of travel round trip. Throw in a bit of TV and YouTube encouragement and it gets BUSY in a hurry.

The other aspect, "The Hunting Party". You don't see folks who grew up in the West hunting with 2-4 truckloads of their friends. Mostly it's alone, immediate family, or 1 maybe 2 good friends. The 10-20 person cabin/camp thing is still alive and well E of the Mississippi and now at least parts of those camps travel annually. Lets face it, it's a whole lot less expensive to split gas 4 ways even if you have to pull a trailer.


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Originally Posted by horse1
Originally Posted by bwinters
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by AlaskaCub
Originally Posted by Kenneth


Your statement of CO catering to NR was idiotic.



Your right, Colorado isn’t the fall back plan for every elk hunter in the country that doesn’t draw in a state that doesn’t offer UNLIMITED OTC elk tags. Jesus.....


Again, not true.

Never in my life have I went to CO for Elk because my plans for a different state didn't pan out,

I also do not know of any other person who has went to CO because his plans for a different state didn't pan out.

What you're trying to imply is a very, very, small amount of hunters that may make last minute changes.

Last time, that is not catering to NR.


Me and about 10-11 of my hunting buddies...........

How do you propose to introduce a new guy to elk hunting who has zero points? Tell him he needs to wait a couple years?


Is there some regulation I haven't heard about in which virgin elk hunters from TN just magically get to cut to the front of the line?


You've heard of Colorado's OTC tags for second, third, fourth season?


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I believe in states rights, put it on a ballot and let the states residents decide the out come. Hunting has been a rich mans game since the Pittman Robertson act. My thinking is if, you don't like it go somewhere else, become as resident or buy enough land to get landowner tags. Sad truth is money talks and BS walks.


Life is good live it while you can.
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