Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading 3 vs. 4 die set on single stage press?

I have a question regarding which die set will best suit my setup. I do all my reloading on a single stage RCBS Rock Chucker press. What I'm wondering is which die set makes the most sense for loading on a single stage press.
I bought a RCBS Carbide pistol die set 9mm Luger (20509) on here. It's a 3 die set which includes a sizer/decapper, expander and seater/taper crimp dies.
I had a Lee Deluxe Carbide 4-Die Set 9mm Luger (90963) on backorder which was delivered after I got the RCBS set. It's a 4 die set which includes a carbide full length sizing die/decapping unit, powder through expanding die (used for expanding and belling the case mouth while charging the case with powder), a bullet seating die, and a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
I'm thinking the Lee die set would be useful for a progressive or turret setup and the RCBS die set would be a better choice for a single stage press as I would only have to change dies 3 times versus 4 for the Lee set. What do you guys say?
Thanks.

I haven't found the press type -- single, turret, progressive -- important when deciding about dies.

Instead, I've focused on the operations I want to do. For me, seating is one step, crimping is a separate step. No matter what. Hence 4-die set. Without regard to whether I'm doing it on a Lee Turret or Dillon 550.

-Chris

Lee 4 die set for me. Am toying with getting a Redding dual ring carbide sizer die for my .45 Colt loads.

A 4 die set makes crimping so much easier.

I would try both sets of dies and keep the set I liked best. I can’t see where press type factors into the decision. I prefer and use 4 die sets in both my T-7 and LnL.

4 die set = better control over amount and position of the crimp.

If I were you, I would go for the 3 die setup and this is why.

I started out reloading 45acp with a separate seating and crimping die because this seemed to be the internet consensus and not having a reloading mentor I didn't know any better. After loading a couple thousand rounds I began to wonder if I could seat and crimp in the same step and save a little work. I reload on a turret press so I turned the combo die down until it just removed the bell from the end of the case and the round would plop into the barrel. I have loaded another 7-8 thousand rounds since then without a problem.

It is my opinion that if you carefully set up your dies and forget about "crimping" you can probably load 9mm with a combo seating taper crimp die. If you can't make it work you can always buy a separate taper crimp die.

I think for the sake of new reloaders the taper crimp die should be renamed bell removal die.

I have a couple of 9mm factory rounds on my desk right now and I'll be dammed if there is any crimp in either one. One of these rounds is a hollow point self defense round that I use in my carry pistol. I have always wondered if you get setback from repeated chambering, so I did an experiment where I racked it in from a 1/2 full magazine 20 times and measured the length after each time. Guess what, no setback. Neck tension holds the bullet in place no "crimp" is needed.

So give it a try! A three die setup will may well save you 10,000 handle pulls in the next ten years.

By the way. I just started reloading 41 magnum and 45 colt about a year ago and this advise definitely does not apply to revolver cartridges that use a roll crimp. Those are a whole different ball game.

Bob

A 3 die works fine *IF* your setup is perfect, your brass is uniform and you're not loading a round that may set back during recoil or loading from the magazine.

Try anything but a FC die in a 20 Oz 45lc+P and it'll pull the bullets and dump powder by the 3rd shot.

If your feed ramp sucks you may find you're setting bullets back during loading on some autos.....

But 90% of the time we'll setup 3 die sets will work perfectly.

I prefer the flexibility and no-fuss of a separate crimp die, thus the four-die set. But I load pistol rounds on a turret press. If I were loading pistol rounds on my Rock Chucker, I might think differently.

4 die for sure.

The Campfire forms needs to have voting options for posts so someone like me can just hit the thumbs up for "this was a helpful post".

Thumbs Up!!!

I thought a lot differently 33 years ago when I decided to get a progressive for pistol rounds. Conclusion was 4 die set requires 5 operations size/decap, prime, powder drop, seat then crimp. 100 rounds required handling the brass 500 times. 3 die set 400 times. Too damn time consuming plus more work. Even with a progressive I still only use 3 die sets and have for 40 years which the beginning was a time when you had to lube pistol cases. Nitride and carbide dies didn’t exist. Also never have trimmed a pistol case, let alone a 9mm or any case that headspaces on the mouth as they shorten not lengthen on firing.

I'm a 4 die set guy, for autopistols, period.

I’ve only used the three die RCBS Carbide dies for 9MM. And I load on a Rock Chucker. It works great for me.

Since 90% of the 9mm's I load are with cast bullets, I need flare removal as the final step. Hence 4 dies. BTW, with a case kicker (mine is homemade) one can get thru those single steps pretty quickly. YMMV

I’ve never had a major problem with three die sets for both .45 ACP and .357 Mag. It takes a bit of fiddling to make sure everything is right in the beginning , but once it is done it is pretty much set and forget.

I buy the Lee carbide crimp die for use in a pistol loading. It make my loading 4 steps. Hasbeen

Lee 4 piece set.....the FCD rocks.....

semi ammo runs flawlessly

Single stage RC press....no need to be in a hurry

Haste makes waste...

I use a separate taper crimp die for autopistols. My original 3-die sets had roll-crimp shoulders in the combination seat/crimp dies. In my opinion, that’s inappropriate for autopistol cartridges. I want a firm, taper crimp. To get it, I trim my cases, when new, to a uniform length and just knock the burrs off, no real chamfer. I seat and crimp in separate steps, crimping to a specific dimension.

+1

I have used pistol dies made by RCBS, Lee, and Hornady. I alway crimp as a separate operation. Which means I have a separate crimping die. One advantage to this is that once I have the seating depth set - I can lock it down and it does not change. The same goes for the crimp die - once I achieve the proper crimp - I lock it down and it does not change.

I reload in bulk on my single stage press. I usually process and load in lots of 300. Because I reload this way, I might have several groups of cases at various stages of completion. Therefore, I have not found crimping as a separte operation to be more time consuming - but - adjusting and readjusitng your dies is time consuming.

GB

Very well stated. I agree completely.

The 9mm Luger is a taperd case that headspaces on the case mouth. Very little crimp is needed or desired. All the crimp that is needed is enough to close the "bell" that was put to the case mouth for bullet seating.

The taper of the case itself will resist setback - as rschmelzle tested and comfirmed.

Thanks for catching that little gem gregintenn.

GB

If I had to load pistol on a single stage I'd probably use seat/crimp/taper crimp in one step.

Depending on brass it can work ok. If you have mixed range brass with slightly different lengths not so good if you actually need some "crimp".

Haven't used a single stage press for pistol since the early 80's so separate crimp for me. Almost all my loading is with swaged lead or lately coated lead so I have expander powder through dies with longer shoulder to keep the brass from swaging the bullet even smaller as its seated. And shooting mostly .45acp soft lead the taper crimp is important so doing that in a separate station is the way to go for me.

Off topic, if you shoot much pistol at all, get a decent progressive press and learn how to run it. I could see some deals in the future when all these folks that panic bought presses actually get around to attempting to use them and decide it ain't for them. I want another Dillon 1050 or the newer RL 1100 just for convenience.

Your life will improve considerably if you're loading much over the occasional pinking session.

Good luck

Most of my die sets are RCBS and Reddings ... three die sets are fine but I almost always add a Lee Factory Crimp Die to the set. It'll fit inside the RCBS die boxes but not inside the Redding boxes because of the loading trays built into the Redding boxes.

I ran nothing but a Rockchucker for years, long ago, and nothing really speeds anything up on any single stage press except that extra crimp die imho.

I like the three die set. I don't load for competition, I am not meticulous with things. I don't load a lot of different cartridges. Cutting out one additional operation is fine with me. My hunting is at short range, my self defense needs are mostly met by factory cartridges and I don't do much paper punching.

That's actually a really good post Bob ... and you closed well with that last paragraph although not all revolver cartridges require a roll crimp imho. I roll crimp when reloading big hand cannon fodder and/or 44 Mag loads for my 1894P and Redhawk combo. And I roll crimp most cast boolit loads. But I taper crimp fmj and tmj loads, especially those with cannelures. JSPs, GDHPs, etc., in 357 Mag ... those get taper crimps in my presses.

There is definitely an art to dialing-in a combo seating/crimp die to do both steps properly with one pull of the handle. It requires a consistent stroke of the handle, a good feel for your press and a careful setting-up process and tightening-down of your dies complete with set screws to avoid any and all potential for shift if you are running large batches.

I almost never run smaller batches than 100, usually more than 100, unless I am working-up a load to meet a specific need before running a big batch or when trying to match factory ammo performance ... again, before running a big batch.

One thing I have found over the decades is that the crimp has a big time affect, huge effect, on performance. You know, like they say football is all about offense, defense and special teams .... when, in fact, it is more about leadership, talent, heart, hard work, preparation, strategy and execution. Practice makes perfect. Likewise ballistics is about many things (once you remove the human element from the equation) but mainly platforms, powder, primers, pills and assembly. Each element multi faceted.

Proper crimping is an art, a skill, and knowing which crimp to use when and on what and how much is truly a learned skill.

As you alluded-to, one does not use the same crimp on a bolty specific 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge that one might use on a 454 Casull revolver cartridge just as one would not use the same crimp on a semi-auto necked-down magazine-fed cartridge that one might use on a straight-walled tube fed levergun cartridge.

Think about it. When I do it comes to mind that I probably have 8-10 very specific crimps, in my repertoire, that I might employ on a variety of difference loads ... reloaders rarely think of it in those terms but I'm sure most of us here could make the same claim. You've got three basic roll crimps, heavy, medium and light, and three basic taper crimps, heavy, medium and light, then, just off the top of my head I have a deep roll I use in grease grooves with certain coated cast boolits, another type of roll crimp I use for WCs seated to just below case mouth depth, another what I call half-light taper I use on TPJs and plated bullets (to prevent skinning upon sending) ... and so-on and so-forth.

Taught all my kids to reload years ago .... only my Son grasped seating/crimping in one stroke. The girls never could.

ETA: I had to snicker in agreement that a taper die could easily be construed as a "belled-mouth closing die" ... but it doesn't just roll off the tongue. lol