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What are Wegner's credentials...? I know Jordan, Cirillo, Cooper, et al, but who is Wegner..? At least when I read something by Ross Seyfried or Mike Plaxco or John Shaw, or Chuck Taylor...I know who they are and what their shooting accomplishments are...

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Don't know anything about him other than his disclaimer at the bottom of his articles, which are mostly a compendium of shooting techniques safety, practice etc..Jim

Here's another article on safety, including dry fire practice..

http://www.spw-duf.info/safety.html#dryfire


and link to the home page..:

http://www.spw-duf.info/index.html

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Well, at least he has an opinion and that is more than some folks have....

Like all Orange Gunsite graduates, I took some umbrage to his comments about my training site, but to each his own...

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tightloop...He readily acknowleges that he doesn't agree with even some of the experts on points..and also encourages any who read what he has on his site to use their common sense, experience to develop their own personal practices.

For many who own handguns for defense( not necessarily you)the various topics & things he goes over might be eye openers...and encourage them to accompany-add to their ownership of a handgun for defense with more in depth understanding-training.Jim


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I would add that he does have credentials, and offers training.
He lives in Show Low AZ( I lived there 18 years ago)..

http://www.spw-duf.info/training.html

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A truck load of great pistol shooters live in Az...I will touch base with a few and see if they have heard of him...and what the consensus is...He might be the next GREAT thing...who knows...?

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Well, he has compiled alot of good historical stuff and references to what others have tried and proven..and what else he has on his FREE site is worthwhile.
About 90% I'd estimate of folks who have a handgun for defense-home defense will never take a course or buy a book..:)

Who had heard of "Massad Ayoob" before he came on the scene..:)

...:)Jim

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Well, he has compiled alot of good historical stuff and references to what others have tried and proven..and what else he has on his FREE site is worthwhile.


+1

Some people love to teach, they share information freely out of love for the topic and with little thought of personal gain.

I get that impression from Mr Wenger's site.

Also apparent is that every word is carefully crafted and edited so as to be easily readable and yet give out no false information (did ya ever write an informational web page? If so you'll know what I mean).

This despite the fact that he freely communicates an awful lot of information.

OK, read Mr Wenger's site and then go here...

http://www.gunsite.com/

..and try to pick up any useful info.

I'm sure the guys at Gunsite are driven by ideals too, but they are definitely running a business. Even their "approved links" are to other businesses, I'll bet they sell the links.

Just my $0.02

Birdwatcher


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Birdwatcher,
I am not a disciple of Mr Wenger, having only found his site a day or so ago as this thread evolved.
My younger brother is considering getting a CCW in Minnesota and I sent him the link.

There's alot there.
The sections on handguns, ammo and holsters is pretty good and should help folks make good choices based on their own situation and needs.

The section on deadly force, situational awareness and situational evaluations and knowing the rule of law is a CRITICAL part of the equation which some may not consider...but should.

The decision to carry has huge responsibilities and having made that choice years ago, I have found that my patience, tolerence and willingness to AVOID reacting poorly to the inevitable daily confrontations has increased tremendously.
'An armed society is a polite society'..and that "politeness" should start with those who carry and have that responsibility.
Best to ya, Jim


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MUCH has changed since Orange Gunsite, since Jeff was no longer involved in daily teaching, even more since it changed hands...

When Jeff owned and ran it, it was his passion that was passed along to the students...I am sure that part is surely lacking now.

Assuming anything at all from a website can misleading...TOTALLY depends on who designed it and wrote the script...

Birdwatcher, have you ever taken a formal class on pistol shooting from one of the top folks in the country...like Gunsite, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Chapman, Barnhart, Leatham, or any of the rest? It is intense, competitive and informative...not for those looking for anything free, who want it given to them, or are concerned about how the website is written...not for those who are looking for a good time shooting, not for those who don't want to grow their knowledge base, and not for those who are a bit thin skinned. They are about learning from someone who can DO what you cannot, learning from someone who has been there, done that...about expanding your practical ability to meet situational expectations...

Individual practice is good, but you come away from one of these classes enthused, motivated, involved, and focused...I know I would get those things from Cunsite, Thunder Ranch, or a school with Robbie Leatham...Not just based on their website, but from personal interaction and knowledge...Not from Missouri, but I like them to " show me"....

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The section on deadly force, situational awareness and situational evaluations and knowing the rule of law is a CRITICAL part of the equation which some may not consider...but should.


In my case, you're preaching to the choir here....

Not much on Mr Wenger's site was new to me, in fact it has been up for at least a couple of years, expanded now from what I recall a couple of years back. But being familiar with the material I could appreciate how carefully it is packaged, all the way down to the photos of the effects of flash from the cylinder gap when practicing some of the shooting from close to the hip techniques.

When you're writing about something as critcaly important as self-defense with lethal force ya gotta be very careful of what you say and how you say it.

..and speaking of those low shooting hand postion techniques, since both Fairbairn and Wenger emphasize them, I expect I'll start. Putting your handgun out in front of you in every instance is likely the wrong thing to do... sometimes.

Although I expect the practice of any method where any part of your body is in front of the cylinder gap and especially the muzzle oughtta be approached with extreme caution.

Back to the original topic, it is interesting to compare the attitudes of our CQB crowd to the shooting fraternity when it comes to Sykes and Fairbiarn.

Those involved with the practical application of the martial arts, especially as it applies to military training, readily acknowledge a huge debt of gratitude to those two men for ushering in what is essentially the modern rea.

Acknowledgement for the same from the firearms crowd seems lacking, generally going back as far as Cooper, Weaver et al. in California in the 50's and 60's, and possibly as far as Applegate when pushed.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state, since I still observe my fellow countrymen to some degree as a foreigner would, one of the character flaws common to many Americans is a sort of cultural egocentricism, I expect this is especially true of the handguns crowd.

Looking at Fairbairn and Syke's pioneering handgun tome, it is all at once concise, accurate, and his conclusions and methods have stood the test of time remarkably well.

The sum total of, and the circumstances of where those guys accumulated their experience and expertise is astounding, and indeed we are unlikely to see their like again.

Birdwatcher


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Assuming anything at all from a website can misleading...TOTALLY depends on who designed it and wrote the script...


If I put up a website with my name on it, it reflects upon me personally, no matter who designed it.

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Birdwatcher, have you ever taken a formal class on pistol shooting from one of the top folks in the country...like Gunsite, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Chapman, Barnhart, Leatham, or any of the rest? It is intense, competitive and informative


No of course not... grin

...but I expect all those things are true, and I would probably enjoy it enormously...

Quote
...not for those looking for anything free, who want it given to them, or are concerned about how the website is written...


Why on earth not? What Mr Wenger presents is true and carefully written, and potentially of enormous value to the reader, ESPECIALLY a newbie like Jim's brother. Ergo Jim, an old salt himself, can still use it by referring others to it.

Gunsite OTOH, is selling a product, their website reflects that.

Look at the opening page of the Gunsite website, a row of guys in neatly pressed new cammy's, and a sum total of maybe $15,000 or more of M-16 clones, then browse through their website to see more on that theme.

The Gunsite website is aimed at the sort of guys who can take time off to travel halfway across the country and go first class all the way. I'll bet there are more than a few shiny new RV's in their parking lot.

That being said, none of the above implies that Gunsite ain't selling a good product.



Mr Wenger's site OTOH, seems aimed more at guys like me grin

Point of comparison, for the basic Arizona CCW class....

Gunsite... $100 1 day, for classes that "more than satisfy the Arizona 8 hour requirement...."

Wenger... $75. Two days. Maximum of 2 students per range session, $25 discount for each additional family member (same household) . "My Arizona Concealed Weapon Permit course has always exceeded the state mandate. I will continue to offer a two-day course even though the statutory mandate has dropped to eight hours. The first day's lecture portion should run around ten hours, depending on the number of questions the students have during the lecture. The second session, which includes the live fire training and mandatory testing, lasts about eight hours."
"While the CWP course is not primarily a shooting course, the range session includes some diagnostics, coaching on fundamentals and a strong tactical emphasis in those shooting exercises which are included. These include shooting from a protected-gun position at arm's length from the threat, one-handed shooting and shooting after having moved to standing and kneeling positions behind cover. One aspect of the tactical emphasis is the combination of movement and communication with shooting."


...I'll bet Jeff would have approved, although doubtless, commenting in his Royal "we", he would'a nitpicked some of the details.. wink

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For those without regular access to a computer, a small paperback edition of STL is available from Paladin Press. IIRC, I got mine through Amazon, and have read it, or at least most parts of it, frequently, as it is of a handy size to take along in a pocket to such places as courthouses, where I have to kill much time and cannot be using a computer. (I wear a big-city police badge.) Someone here mentioned a few posts back the big-bore sixgun, and notably, STL indicates the big-bore snubby being a good weapon for the plainclothed man, as opposed to the uniformed police/soldier. In reference to autoloaders with no safeties, I do seem to recall the Late GREAT Jim Cirillo adopting a DAO auto in .40 at some point in his life; not sure how long he stayed with the concept, but I am totally happy with my duty SIG P229 DAK in .40 short and wimpy, though I have a slight preference for full-power .357 sixguns when on my own time, due to elephant-watching experience. (Borrowing the "elephant" term from Col. Cooper.) And, I will confirm that Chinese members of the Shanghai Municipal Police were issued Colt autos in .380, based on reading several sources.

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Everything has its price, and they all seem to keep going up..

One true thing my pop told me was to buy the best you could afford and never look back...probably still holds true even for firearms training...

Jeff could be more than a little pompous in his teaching, and did look down his nose at a few things...but he was always open to see if something worked better than what he had and if it did, he would use it..

Don't kid yourself Birdwatcher, they both are selling a product..Gunsite is just a little more hi zoot than Wenger...and rightfully so...wonder how many of Mr. W's students have "seen the elephant" in the line of duty of otherwise? How many of his students have gone on to truly distunguish themselves within the firearms industry, be it training, journalism (although some are questionable at best)competitive shooting whatever...Not much difference in what they are selling except one is First Tier and one is not..Not saying Mr. W's info and topics, much less his training is not worthwhile...but it probably depends on your skill set when you sign up for a class..My guess is that Gunsite 150 probably turns out a better shooter on average than does Wenger...regardless of cost..

Jeff approved of bettering yourself in every aspect of life, be it shooting, history, writing....but he like me (maybe because he helped to mold my shooting) tried to get the best training that was avaliable...

And you don't strike me as the kind of fellow who would take any training just because it was cheap...bet your pop taught you better than that as well.

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Ditto as to the .380 Colt autos for the Chinese members of the Shanghai force. I remember that from a lengthy article on Sykes and Fairbairn I read some time ago. It also said that Shanghai police regulations required their 1911 magazines to be altered to carry a maximum of 6 rounds!

BTW, in that same article - and I can't vouch for its accuracy - it was said that Sykes first met Fairbairn while Sykes was acting as a sales rep for the Colt company. And that was how Fairbairn was introduced to the .45 ACP. Or so the story went.

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tightloop... all good points.

Anyhow, back on the top of Fairbairn and Sykes.... here's a collection of pertinent articles from a British CQB site.

http://www.cqbservices.com/?page_id=46

Especially check out the article "W.E. Fairbairn, The Legendary Instructor" for info about Fairbairn in the postwar years.

I was wrong earlier, turns out this article has it that he left the service after the war and that he never received any official recognition from the British government...

Quote
As regarding �Cashing in� consider this fact - relying on his Pension wasn�t an option.

Fairbairn had retired from the SMP, the colony was overrun by the Japanese shortly after and was held until their surrender. After the war Shanghai was united with Communist China and as such the SMP ceased to exist, this meant Fairbairn had no income coming from his SMP pension at all....

SOE only existed as a temporary wartime department, it was created purely as a means to an end. Again I suspect that Fairbairn had realised this, although pensions were promised to its staff after the organisations closure MI6 (the arch-enemy of SOE) took over the SOE pensions. One only has to look to what happened to the late Gavin Maxwell (SOE weapons Instructor) to know that pensions for former SOE Instructors or Operatives weren�t really a priority for SIS. Sad to say but that was the fate for many of the people who served.

The Fairbairn-Sykes knife which bore his name had been mass produced by Britain, the United States and many other countries (along with variations), neither of the men who designed it received a penny in royalties for their selfless contribution.


Hard to imagine the Brits/Canadians/Americans would actually let him go, perhaps he was actually employed on a more clandestine level, certainly by then he had proteges serving with the American intelligence agencies.

With regard to Fairbairn and Sykes, from the same article...

Quote
Fairbairn and Sykes both taught different syllabuses.

These programmes of instruction had a shared beginning but evolved into completely different systems which were (on some points) completely at odd�s with the other.

Shocking to some but true - no matter what others would have us believe.

Fairbairn�s studies into self protection evolved into �Defendu�, it then progressed further into �Close Combat�. This was then later refined into the �Fairbairn System� or �Gutterfighting� during wartime.

Some core techniques were retained throughout, a fact is that they were not the same as the ones E.A Sykes�s was instructing to SOE�s recruits.

The first available copy we have of Sykes�s programme of instruction is SOE�s �Close Combat� syllabus (the Silent Killing Course) which was first released in June of 1942. Please bear in mind that prior to this date he had taught students with Fairbairn for two years, he had also been with SOE for less than five months.

Below are some comments he wrote about two core techniques of the Fairbairn system:

�Difficult to apply unless your opponent has lost his senses�

and more pertinently:

�Why bother?�

These are comments he made about two techniques which were retained throughout the evolution of Fairbairn�s systems. This is in no way meant to cast any aspersions as the physical veracity of Fairbairn�s techniques; it is included simply to show that the two systems were very different from one another.

To quote another of my instructors �In the trade, this is known as a clue�

Sykes�s syllabus was constantly revised and kept up to date until the end of the war, mainly from the experiences and information from operatives in the field. Simply put some of the techniques may have been the same but the emphasis was completely different.


FWIW, elswhere on his website the author, who seems to be well informed has it that Fairbairn was the knife expert and Sykes the gun expert of the duo.

Much here for further study.

Birdwatcher


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While we know all about the evolution of our own handguns and training systems, I for one do remain pretty much clueless about the evelution of such in England.

Generally forgotten now, but the Brits had an exceedingly robust handgun tradition, with numerous opportunities in various "affrays" across the Empire to sort out what worked and what didn't, typically English gentlemen on foot facing determined opponents armed with edged weapons, exactly the sort of situation that later led to our own development of the .45 acp cartridge and the auto that fires it.

Astonishing how long the potential the revolver took to be recongnised, especially given that double action percussion smoothbore "pepperbox" revolvers had been around for a decade or more.

IIRC Colt began production of his "Paterson" revolver in 1836, but it wasn't until 1844 that Jack Hays' Texas Rangers famously showed what they could do when used rapid-fire as a primary weapon, Colt having gone bankrupt in the meantime due to lack of sales.

IIRC again, the .44 Colt Walker didn't achieve wide circulation until 1847. England adopted the '51 Navy as an official service in the 1850's just as we did, but by that time was already producing big bore, short barreled double action revolvers from .44 all the way up to .50 cal.

In service the .36 cal single action '51 Navy quickly proved too slow and too weak, the Brits going the big bore, double-action route and never looking back. I forget exactly when the first such handgun was adopted by the US Military, maybe the 1890's (???), forty years after the fact.

Where I'm going with this is, along with that early Brit adoption of functional fighting revolvers oughtta have come a functional manual of arms.

Earliest I've read about was in an old "Guns Annual" (which I no longer have) in which a guy named Wilfrid Ward wrote an article about the Brits dropping the Webley .445 in favor of the Enfield Mark 1 .380 revolver (one of which was my very first cartridge revolver, marked "1943", another gun I should never have sold).

IIRC Mr Ward had it that, to pass the British "Revolver School" of the 1920's, starting from a one-handed low ready, a candidate had one second to put a single round inside a 10" x 15" rectangle posted at chest height 30 feet away. It weren't exactly on a level with Sykes and Fairbairn in Shanghai, but it was prob'ly better than what we were doing in that same time period.

Anyhow, here's an article from that same CQB site that offers some interesting glimpses on the topic (bold emphasis mine)...

Quote
THE IRON HAND of WAR
British experiences in the development of combat shooting.


...a typical police force would take the top competitors and make them the force firearms instructors who would then stipulate the range facilities and training program. People teach what they know, and if you employ target shooters, they will teach target shooting.

This accounts for virtually every police/military pistol range being of at least 25yds length�. there is no tactical reason, it comes from sporting regulation...

Today liberal sentiment is highly critical of the British Empire, but whatever the faults it provided the British Army and Colonial Police Services with a wealth of experience. Tribal confrontations, border disputes and insurrections gave soldiers and police practical experience. From these ranks many radical thinkers emerged, men who realised that bulls-eye target shooting was a woefully deficient preparation for fighting.

I�ve heard of one officer who would take primed cartridge cases and press the case mouths into blocks of soap, forming a hard soap �bullet�. He would load these into his service Webley. In the garden he would have his servants surround him, armed with a variety of sticks and bludgeons, then at random rush him. Our hero would then respond with well-placed shots to his human targets, giving him practise in reactive accuracy....

The earliest influential figure in our study is Arthur Woodhouse, an officer with the United Provinces Police in India. The result of his experiments was offered in the �New Revolver Manual for Police and Infantry Forces� published in 1907, with the stated objective �to give sound advice on how to practise in order to become a good shot- and to urge more practical training. Woodhouse was a proponent of unsighted snapshooting for close range confrontations. The shot was fired by �whole hand squeeze� while the pistol was sweeping up through the target. As we will see, these two techniques form a common thread.

An innovation was his �revolver pit� a 20-yard circular bay enclosed by a 14-foot high mud wall. A series of target zones were marked on the wall, and the shooter had to engage them according to the random commands of the instructor. Scores were noted, then bullet holes filled with wet mud, which quickly dried in the Indian sun....

In the bloody hand-to-hand trench raiding of World War One many fearsome close-range impact and edged weapons were devised and employed (still on view in the Imperial War Museum). At hand to hand range, in ankle-deep mud the pistol was a valued weapon but again, bull�s-eye training proved inadequate. Captain Charles Tracy was a voice of reason. In his �Revolver Shooting in War�, published in 1915 he says � Fine drill method is one thing, revolver fighting is another�.

An advocate of the �whole hand squeeze� and �vertical lift�, like Woodhouse his preference was for the revolver rather than the semi-auto pistol. Tracy constructed a number of tactical training ranges, where his students could search a �ruined village�, or, navigate an �enemy trench�. Targets appeared, moved dropped. At night the student would wander into booby traps, which would detonate; briefly illuminating targets to be taken by snap-shot....

Noel wrote �How To Shoot With A Revolver� in 1918, followed by �The Automatic Pistol� in 1919 and a later [1940] abridged edition of �How To Shoot With A Revolver�. In Noel�s work we see links between Tracy and Grant-Taylor [particularly with the cocking of the gun in route to firing position]. Noel covers firing by �instinctive sense of direction� utilizing a contraction of the whole hand, as though �squeezing water from a sponge�, a 45-degree ready position and a vertical lift to threat.

He, also, created shoot houses with moving, falling, pop up, and knock down targets. In some cases, he even fitted a blank firing pistol to the hand of a 3D target so that he could cause the hand to raise and fire the gun at the student.

We know that Tracy eventually went on to command the �Southern Command Revolver School at Wareham� and that Noel went on to become a �revolver instructor� at the �Small Arms School at Hythe� under Major Dudley Johnson in 1921, but that�s all I have regarding them as instructors....

THE MAXIMS OF PISTOL SHOOTING...

...7] You seldom need a pistol, but when you do, you need it mighty badly.
...8] You cannot claim to be a pistol shot unless you are a fast shot
...9] Practice the correct handling of the pistol from the first, then you will handle it by instinct when the moment comes.

...14] Trigger pressing is the secret of pistol shooting.
...15] Pistol shooting is merely a matter of practice
...16] Don�t hang on to the trigger, release the finger fully after every shot.
...17] Learn not to fumble. Practice a clean, quick action in drawing and handling your pistol.

...20] Reload at the first opportunity. Always have a full magazine ready.

...22] Keep cool. Fire fast, but never faster than your �best speed� or you will miss every time.
...23] The art of quick shooting lies in perfection in the quick alignment of the sights, combined with an instinctive and automatic trigger squeeze.


Note the way-early developement of various moves towards a "practical pistol" course. Turns out even Sykes and Fairbairn "stood on the shoulders of giants".

Fascinating stuff.

Birdwatcher







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Well it ain't about handguns, but Fairbairn's manual of unarmed combat from the same time period is also a gem.

Most of us of course being far better served with the knowledge of a few well-practiced and practical self-defense moves than we would with a lesser knowledge of more complex arts.

These moves are doubtless pretty good, input from people who know appreciated, I have heard that better defensive techniques are available, and apparently Sykes didn't think much of some of these in the book.

I'm gonna stress the caveat though, from the book...

Quote
I should like in conclusion to give a word of warning. Almost every one of these methods, applied vigorously and without restraint, will result, if not in the death, then certainly in the maiming of your opponent. Extreme caution, then, should be exercised in practice, care being taken never to give a blow with full force or a grip with maximum pressure.


Actually, its certainly recommended to practice with someone familiar with the martial arts.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:yfIwDKeasZMJ:www.tsroadmap.com/early/tough.pdf+get+tough+fairbairn+pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

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