If I were back in Northern Maine hunting 400+ lb deer in thick, hilly woods and cedar swamps a model 94 in 356 Winchester would be the only gun I'd consider.
Some of those fat 400+ lb bears would notice a 220 grain speer at 2400 fps as well.
Buck stops 250 yds out at the end of a clear cut or field, the ole big bore could still lob a hearty hit, with a good blood trail that probably won't be needed.
The "feel" of a model 94 with some "above 30-30" power is one feisty step up, for those of us who grew up carrying a 30-30 since childhood.
I had to do a whole lotta custom stupidity to get that:
Last December I ran into a Marlin 336 ER in 356 Win. Not quite the ballistics of the 358 WInchester due to thincker case, but still a fine 35 cal. My father had one for several years that he used to hunt elk in the brush of Colorado. I load mine with the Speer 180 JFP for PA whitetails. Unfortunately I neer had the chance to try it myself. Recoil is just getting to the point of being objectionable. But the gain over the 35 Remington that I also have is worth it.
I got a Big Bore .356 for my wife as a upgrade from the Mod. 94 in .44 mag. she toted on our moose hunts and her berry picking trips. With a good bullet it should kill well at under 150 yards, which is about the average distance our shots are taken here in Alaska on moose. My problem is I have a new Mod. 71 in .348 Ackley Improved and a good Marlin 45-70 and a bunch of the bonded Kodiak bullet for all three calibers, so the .356 won't be my first choice.
A friend has used one for years on moose and our little island deer. I think he used the 250 grain Kodiak bullet and shots were close. I think the small case would be better served with a 200 to 220 grain bullet of good quality and I hear of folks flattening the nose on 225 grain Partitions. That would be great if they would become available again. I had a machinist make up a tool for me to put a hollow point in a 220 grain Speer flat nose bullet so it would expand better. The idea came from Campfires "Dinny".
A friends son killed a mid sized brown bear last fall at about 25 yards with his .358 Win. and a 200 grain Accubond bullet. He said the second shot he put into was more of a comfort to him as the bear was done in with the first shot. If one cares to look it up as I have, the case capacity for the .356 Win. is the same as for the .358 Win. The difference is the pressure their actions can safely handle. A Model 94 or 336 Marlin cannot handle as much pressure as a bolt action .358 Winchester. A .35 caliber bullet of good construction is a very useful bullet diameter in a lever gun for game larger then deer, which is why I went with a .348 Ackley Improved, I wanted near .35 Whelen muzzle velocity out of and old school lever gun.
It has been a long time since any one really improved on the design strength of and old school lever gun like Winchester and Marlin became famous for. Instead the direction has been to use pointy bullets and scopes on them to make them into 300 yard rifles. I like a peep sighted mid bore tossing 250 grain bullets at about 2,500 fps mv. Those brown bear or their tracks I see every moose hunt make me like a powerful .35 caliber load.
You dont hear much about them because they are hard to find. The guys that have them like them I guess. I've been looking for years and still dont have one. I did find a 375 Winchester though. In my opinion the 444 beats them all though. I have two of them
Mainer? What? I thought that takedown should never hear you say that. Poor little takedown 358 Winny is going to be sad. But I won't tell. Do you want to sell it and go to the 356? Let me know. I want dibs please. Be Well, RZ.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill.
I have a 348 Winchester in an original 71 that shoots under 2MOA with factory Hornady ammo. I also have both a BLR and a Savage 99F in 358 Winchester so I can't justify a 356 but the 356 would do just about as well in real world use with the great 220 Speer at 2300fps. Great rigs but none of these rifle-cartridge combos caught on.
Why so little mention of this fine cartridge and rifle? What are your thoughts and opinions?
Very few made, even less ammo. Great setup for most killin. 👍
Ping pong balls for the win. Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Not sure why it ever came to be as the 358 Win had a longer history. Other than Winchester made it that way... I owned a Savage 99 in 358 Win and currently have a Marlin 336ER in 356 Win. For the extra effort of finding brass for the 356 Win, I prefer it. Advantage of the 358 Win is that you can use 308 Win brass to form it but I am one to always prefer the original case as reforming stretches the necks a lot.
I've put away a lotta moose meat with the 358 Win in savage 99 and BLR. The main advantage of the 356, is a simple, lightweight, exposed hammer platform for deer country. Here in Alaska and the Yukon, most of us hunters do just fine getting onto game with unloaded chambers. There is no need of the risk, traveling many miles with a hot chamber. There's always time to load one into the chamber when game is spotted. Simlle bolt actions work great, and are what I prefer to carry.
In thick, hilly deer woods where I grew up in Northern Maine, there is no way n hell you'd get on an elusive buck with an unloaded chamber. They are spooky, and way harder to hunt than moose n caribou. Hunting with a round chambered, is a necessity.
In that type of environment, the stalking can be brutal and the exposed hammer rifle is the safer platform for that style of hunting.
Id never hunt like that with a savage 99 with it's internal firing pin, nor would I use a finicky, complicated browning lever or model 88.
The big bore 94 in 356 with it's sleek receiver that allows unrivaled carrying comfort at the balance point and extended range over a typical 30-30, that would be my top choice for back home where both deer and black bear can commonly exceed 400 lbs.
I've owned a couple of Marlins in 356 WIN and haven't had any trouble using 358 brass in it as long as I stuck to the shorter 356 COAL limits. I load the Speer 180 grain FP for deer and the 220 grain Speer FP for anything bigger/tougher. The one whitetail doe that I shot with the 356 while using the 220 grain Speer FP showed little expansion on its path through the deer, the holes in both sides oft he rib cage, in and out, looked to be about .40 caliber. OTOH, the 180 grain Speer FP seems to knock 'em off their feet.
Got me greedy hoarding hands on about 240 Nosler Partition 225 grain .358 bullets. Campfires "Dinny" loaned me his Corbin cannelure tool for putting a crimping groove on the bullets after I flatten the noses on my Ken Onion Work Shop knife sharpener sanding belts. I am using a set of calipers and 220 grain Speer flat point as a control bullet. I should end up with about a 210-215 grain Partition. This will give the little .356 Win. case a leg up over many other bullets offered for the .356 case. At least in my mind and considering the size of Alaska's moose and bears.
Powder will be either WW 748 or Ramshot X-Terminator, depends on what the gun likes. I'm thinking 2,400 fps mv is doable, but can live with any thing over 2,300 fps mv. Can't think of any thing in Alaska that combo won't put down handily if I do my part.
During moose season the rifle will wear a Leupold 1.5-5x20 with the German #4 reticle in Talley QD rings, other then that the XS receiver sight will be used, but sorely tempted to put a fixed rear sight in the barrel dove tail. I just see better with a scope, especially in low light when moose are out and about.
The horrible side mounted receiver safety will be addressed. Got a brass saddle ring and will drill a hole in the stem on the left side and put the ring through it so the safety won't engage Cutting the head off of a .356 Win. case to plug the hole on the right side of the receiver and should add a touch of bling to an already good looking rifle..
I have put a cannular on a bunch of 225 grain Partitions now with the Corbin tool. I ground the nose off of one the bullets and it weighs right at 218 grains. Hoping to have a load zeroed by late next week and really want to bust a critter with that bullet out of the .356 Winny.
I find all of the comments interesting in that I thought I was shooting a very odd-ball cartridge. Maybe there is more love for the cartridge than I thought. In my case, the Marlin 336ER helps.
I have put a cannular on a bunch of 225 grain Partitions now with the Corbin tool. I ground the nose off of one the bullets and it weighs right at 218 grains. Hoping to have a load zeroed by late next week and really want to bust a critter with that bullet out of the .356 Winny.
I think this is an excellent idea. After using a few .358s and liking lever guns I became enamored with the idea of a .356 and planned to have JES convert a 336. Ultimately I decided to go with the .444 due to brass availability. I like the .444 alot, but the .356 is certainly a good cartridge for alot of hunting.
As I mentioned, I have a nice 94 BB in 356 set up with peeps. I am considering low mounting a Leupold 3X scope to help compensate my old eyes. Starting to have trouble seeing that front sight. Just really hate the idea of scoping a 94. Les
Its not always easy to do the right thing, But it is always the right thing to do.
You might like a mini red dot sight mounted on the rear sight dovetail. Less bulk and weight than a scope but still a good solution to fuzzy front sight disorder.
New to the 356 win, but not 35 cal. - 35 rem, 358s, up to the Whelen, been my favorite cal for 35 years. I’ve recently started playing with the 225 gr woodliegh RN in my 356 win bigbore. I’m getting 2350 fps with this bullet using h4198. I flattened the tips and the bullets end up @ 223grs. and shoot into tiny little groups all the way out to 200 yrds. I’ve also been playing with 200 grain fusions, these bullets were pulled from 35 whelen ammo, so were designed for much higher velocity. They start out pointed and after grinding the tip off they weigh 193 grs. I load these to 2550 fps and I’m getting good penetration in jugs (6) and perfect expansion. This will be my first season hunting with this rifle. Gonna start out with deer here in Kansas and if all goes well cow elk later in the fall.
A great design of balanced power. And 357 pistol bullets to huge stuff at what @310gr? I like the medium bores. I haven't met up with a 356 when I had the money. Be Well, RZ.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill.
Your 225 grain Woodleigh load looks perfect for Alaska. Does the crimp groove work ok as is? I recently started modifying some 225 grain Nosler Partitions for my .356 Big Bore. Had to flatten the nose and put a cannular on them, a bit time consuming. How did you flatten the nose? I am using a Ken Onion Knife Sharpener sanding belt and a 220 grain Speer as a example for length.
I have some WW 748 and X-Terminator for powder, but your H4198 load looks plenty good, if my powder does not work out and give me over 2,300 fps mv.
got a hold of 100 of the 225 grain Woodleigh's and the crimping grove is in the wrong place. So I will sell them as I have other choices like the Partitions I modified and a bunch of the Speer FN 220 grain bullets. I zeroed the little 1.5-5 Leupold a couple inches high at 100 yards with the 200 grain Shock Hammer bullets and a healthy charge of Ramshot X-Terminator. Recoil is very tolerable and less then my 30-06 and .338 loads and the claim is the Hammer bullets penetrate like a Barnes X and expand down to 1,500 fps mv.
Hoping to put one in to the lungs of a bull moose soon. If I do I will share the autopsy reports. If it performs as I hope I may have found my one load for the .356 and Alaska's big game. I also have about 6 pounds of WW 748 for the Partitions and 220 grain Speers.
Not many choices for a flat nosed .358 bullet compared to few years ago. Hawk Bullets offers a few in different weights and jacket thicknesses. Speer may have quit making their 180 and 220 grain flat nose, but some internet time may find some. Both Speer bullets have a rep for being tough bullets. I got a hold of some 225 grain Nosler Partitions and flattened the nose and put a crimp groove on them and I think I figured out a way to crimp the 225 grain Woodleigh after I flatten the nose. Fury bullets offers a bonded 180 grain bullet.
Hammer bullets offers their Shock Hammer bullet in 178 and 203 grain weight and I think either one would work for deer and elk at .356 hunting distances. I read they penetrate similar to my favorite hunting bullet, the Barnes X of some flavor. The Shock Hammer is a long bullet and the 203 grain bullet is as long as the Big Bore action will handle. I only hunt Alaska and prefer a 220 grain weight bullet as our moose and bears are big. But, from what I read the 203 version Shock Hammers offer plenty of penetration on big game.
Ram Shot X-Terminator and WW748 are good powders for the .356. If your keeping the rifle I would get some more brass and learn to anneal. Also, stock up on bullets when you find what you like.
I correspond with a couple guys that use lead .358 bullets and also shoot .357 hand gun bullets for practice. Mine wears a XS Sight on front and rear. It is a small peep sight that does not snag on stuff and is built tough. The front sight is a flat post with a white line going up the center. My wife carries our .356 Big Bore on moose hunts and berry picking safaris!
A new option that I found and have picked up is Fury Bullets. They came out with a 220gr flat nose that is a copper jacketed bullet but has a flat lead nose. They have the correct crimp grove to keep the overall short enough for my 94. The nice thing is the base line loads can be built off of the Speer data. The nose is a little more pointed then the Speer so it sets .01” deeper in the throat but so far there is no noticeable difference in group quality but I have just started playing with these guys.
Don't forget you can easily form 307 WIN and 356 WIN cases from 444 MARLIN brass. Use a Form & Trim die to neck them down and shorten them. Redding makes them. I have BB 94's in 307, 356, 375 WIN and 444 Marlin. Great rifles!
The average distance to the big game Alaskan critter when the first shot is taken is about 160 yards. Easily done with a good load from a .356 Winchester.
I recently put my Marlin 336ER up for sale. Great guns, but I just have too many. And if it doesn't sell, I will work it into hunting rotation for a day or so.
A new option that I found and have picked up is Fury Bullets. They came out with a 220gr flat nose that is a copper jacketed bullet but has a flat lead nose. They have the correct crimp grove to keep the overall short enough for my 94. The nice thing is the base line loads can be built off of the Speer data. The nose is a little more pointed then the Speer so it sets .01” deeper in the throat but so far there is no noticeable difference in group quality but I have just started playing with these guys.
How recently did you get the Fury bullets ? I just found out about them a couple of weeks ago. Did they have them in stock ? I got lucky and got a new, unfired winchester 356 from an auction out east recently. Its one of the original pre-safety guns. Another auction has a few bags of brass and a bunch of the speer 220 bullets so I am bidding on those as well. Fury makes a bullet for the 375 as well.
