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i ran the fixed 4 power on mine till my eyes preferred the 6x to me if eye are decent nothing beats a fixed 4 power for woods hunting my shots are normally 100 yards up-to 130


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Isn't the pressure against the bolt face on the .45-70 much less than the pressure of the .444?

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I have a JM 45-70, the GBL model.

I kind of shyed away from the 444 because of the slow twist (1/38 I believe it was) kind of topping out at 265gr or so bullets.

But I think in the later production the barrels were set up with Ballard rifling, at 1/20 twist. I would like to have one of those.

I like the 45-70 plenty, but there are enough examples of them blowing up, that I never lean on it pressure wise. The chamber area receiver are hollowed out pretty good....a little too good in my opinion, but it keeps the weight down.

The 444 has significantly more metal in that critical area.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
I have a JM 45-70, the GBL model.

I kind of shyed away from the 444 because of the slow twist (1/38 I believe it was) kind of topping out at 265gr or so bullets.

But I think in the later production the barrels were set up with Ballard rifling, at 1/20 twist. I would like to have one of those.

I like the 45-70 plenty, but there are enough examples of them blowing up, that I never lean on it pressure wise. The chamber area receiver are hollowed out pretty good....a little too good in my opinion, but it keeps the weight down.

The 444 has significantly more metal in that critical area.


I don't hot rod mine either. If I want something going fast, I've got other rifles to do it. My 18.5" barrel lever gun is for big-n-slow in the woods.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
I have a JM 45-70, the GBL model.

I kind of shyed away from the 444 because of the slow twist (1/38 I believe it was) kind of topping out at 265gr or so bullets.

But I think in the later production the barrels were set up with Ballard rifling, at 1/20 twist. I would like to have one of those.

I like the 45-70 plenty, but there are enough examples of them blowing up, that I never lean on it pressure wise. The chamber area receiver are hollowed out pretty good....a little too good in my opinion, but it keeps the weight down.

The 444 has significantly more metal in that critical area.


You're exactly right

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My 2 444P's have ballard rifling. I shoot mainly 300 gr bullets(my cast) and jacketed. It is my go to deer gun for the woods and swamps. The one I hunt with wears a 3x10x50 Meopta scope. Since our hunting times are 1 hr before sunrise to 1 hr after sunset. The other just sleeps in the safe as a never needed back up. My 310 gr cast bullet crono's out of my 444P at 1908 fps avg.
My 45/70 is a Marlin 1895 LTD-111 with an 18" barrel. It's a range toy with 400 gr cast bullets. And kicks like @!@$@!!!!!~!

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Originally Posted by model70man
Isn't the pressure against the bolt face on the .45-70 much less than the pressure of the .444?


The SAAMI max for the .45-70 is much lower than for the .444, due to the fact that the .45-70 is a carryover from the black powder era.

If loaded to the same pressure, bolt thrust will be higher with the .45-70 due to the larger diameter of the case head/rim area.

I personally don't see the need to go past 35.5 Kpsi with the .45-70. If I need a faster large diameter, heavy bullet, I go with a bigger case. If I need flatter trajectory, I go with a better platform for that. Recoil becomes a factor, too.

The .45-70 is very good at killing big animals at shorter ranges, and the .444 with 300 grain or heavier bullets is a monster, too. There ain't much I can't kill with a .45-70 loaded with 425 grain LBT hardcasts at 1650 to 1700 fps. Same with a .444 and the proper bullets.

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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
I have a JM 45-70, the GBL model.

I kind of shyed away from the 444 because of the slow twist (1/38 I believe it was) kind of topping out at 265gr or so bullets.

But I think in the later production the barrels were set up with Ballard rifling, at 1/20 twist. I would like to have one of those.

I like the 45-70 plenty, but there are enough examples of them blowing up, that I never lean on it pressure wise. The chamber area receiver are hollowed out pretty good....a little too good in my opinion, but it keeps the weight down.

The 444 has significantly more metal in that critical area.

You're exactly right

See article below where Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets does heavy bullet load work using a 444P with 1:20 Ballard rifling and a 444S with 1:38 Micro-Groove rifling.

.444 Marlin Versatile Big-Bore Part III :: By Marshall Stanton - via Wayback Machine

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I have been shooting a Marlin 45-70 and 400 grain bullets over a case full of H322 for over 25 years. I don't go over what the book says. I read the Marlin 1895 had to have metal removed to accommodate the 45-70 rim, so it is a weaker action then other Marlins. Makes sense to me. Following modern 45-70 load data gives one a load that is powerful enough for big bears and other big critters. It is a .458 bullet coming from a smaller case then a .458 Winchester, which makes it a shorter range cartridge for killing big stuff.

I can't imagine a well constructed 280 to 300 grain .444 bullet not taking care of any thing in North America.

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