24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Unfired - how to tell #15914358 03/18/21
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Centennial Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Is there a way to tell if a rifle has been fired? I understand they are before they are proofed but afterwards, is there a way to tell? Does it even matter on a rifle that is in as new or perfect condition?

I ask because i just came across a 1965 M70 in 375 H&H with the original box. When i look closely, the lands and grooves look like they are still blued and there is no thinning at the crown or any evidence of copper anywhere. The rifle looks new and has never had a scope mounted on it.

Thanks for the help,

BP-B2

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15914773 03/19/21
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,237
P
Poconojack Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,237

I always check out the bolt face, handle and lugs, bolt raceways, extractor, and the general appearance of the bolt itself for any signs of wear. Also, look for little shavings of brass. The overwhelming majority of guns that are marketed as being ‘unfired’ are NOT. Ymmv.


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15914793 03/19/21
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,909
T
tmitch Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
T
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,909
Originally Posted by Centennial
Does it even matter on a rifle that is in as new or perfect condition?


Not in my opinion, especially on a post-64 rifle.


Charter Member
Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester

"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15914839 03/19/21
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,274
Ken_L Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,274
All rifles are fired before being shipped so does it really matter? Honestly, could you tell a rifle that was shot twenty times by the owner versus once in order to be proofed? I purchased a Kimber in 7mm-08 off the shelf and this thing was so dirty you thought they shot 50 rounds through it.


NRA Lifetime Endowment Member
Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15914899 03/19/21
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 386
E
elkmen1 Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
E
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 386
I have an arsenal rebuilt 03, and you can see some very fine wear on the bolt and slide rails, its been shot, but not very much.

IC-A

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15915409 03/19/21
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 304
S
Sam_H Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 304
NIB cannot be proven, unless you are the original purchaser and know what you have. Good luck trying to convince a buyer. The "original Winchester box" reinvention industry is another part of the problem. Yet another is the too good to be true refinished gun risk.

Have a few that appear unfired. Circumstances of purchase and the stories that went with them reassured me somewhat. But I did not pay the NIB premium.

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15915464 03/19/21
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 454
I
iskra Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
I
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 454
To answer your question, "Yes". It is possibly to tell 'if" a weapon has been fired even once. Forensically! More practically in that context all the other "evidentiary" matters as how recently, particular ammo, ambient temperature/humidity at time of firing; and more.
Practically speaking, the term "unfired" is best taken as a good faith 'opinion'. Technically better put perhaps in lawyer language as a good faith perception that the rifle remains in new condition, the firing of which beyond proofing, has not "apparently" occurred.

Continuing "practicality" bent, more literally a "so what". Particularly if buyer intention is to fire it. That unless, "deflowering" an object some kind of achievement! smile Where such status has greatest meaning, the more vintage "collectible" guns, typically themselves aged. Likelihood of "unfired" there potentially more meaningful, but requiring an unusual sort of provenance or some such accounting credibly!

"Unfired" the term is of a category commonly called "puffing". That is, of unverified and likely stretching sales technique. Such of a sort commonly encountered in a particular business/trade and not a "representation upon which a potential buyer is necessarily entitled to rely as more than simple "opinion".

"New in box" has more meaning as more easily appearance-verifiable to reasonable satisfaction.

We could venture into all sorts of "what if..." examples for discussion. But I won't. I do suggest simply taking such representations with a grain of salt!

And closing with the aside... What rifle bores are commonly blued???

Best & Stay Safe!
John

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15915726 03/19/21
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 304
S
Sam_H Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 304
"Unfired" is out the window before sale, when the rifle is test-fired. Seems silly to even describe a new firearm as "unfired". Never mind doing so with something purchased second-hand.

NIB is, at least, possible.

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Sam_H] #15916088 03/19/21
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 34,861
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 34,861
Originally Posted by Sam_H
"Unfired" is out the window before sale, when the rifle is test-fired. Seems silly to even describe a new firearm as "unfired". Never mind doing so with something purchased second-hand.

NIB is, at least, possible.



I agree sam. I also agree with Pocono. He hits on some good points and areas to look at and evaluate when buying a used rifle. I've looked at nice (on the outside) pre 64 model 70's that had terrible bores. I simply hand said rifles back and move on to the next one... Bolt face is often the dead give away as well... But to say and describe something as "unfired" is simply silly, as we all know they are test fired from the factory..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.

Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
P


BSA
Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15916997 03/19/21
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Centennial Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 208
Thanks for the input, i really do appreciate it. Just to be clear, it's a 1965 and not many people are concerned about collecting them...im apparently an oddity. And, I don't believe there is a big market for faking early post 63 rifles either.

So, bottom line, fired, tested, unfired, boat paddle, warm patina, and any other adjective claim of the seller is really only as good as the buyers opinion.

NRA grading states:
"PERFECT: In New condition in every respect. (Many collectors & dealers use "As New" to describe this condition).

EXCELLENT: New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect, (except at muzzle or sharp edges)."

But even this is subject to the potential buyer.

Again, thanks for the input. It's a stunning rifle and as new in appearance as any new rifle i have purchased. Im happy to have it and it sounds like shooting it occasionally wont hurt the value.

IC-B

Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15917044 03/19/21
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,237
P
Poconojack Online Content
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,237

Unfired also being discussed on the Winchester Arms Collectors site.
Re. Blued bores, “on M70’s & M52’s any barrel that is rust blued will not have the bore blued, while if blued using Dulite hot salt bath, bore will be blued.”


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15917096 03/19/21
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,295
D
deerstalker Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,295
In my experience 1965 among other bad things in my life , was not the best of years for any of Winchester models. there were worse years but a lot of better post 64 years had better workmanship.


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Re: Unfired - how to tell [Re: Centennial] #15917132 03/19/21
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,745
U
UPhiker Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
U
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,745
On the other hand, an unfired gun has no "history". Guns with an "interesting" life have been shot.


Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

RR1b
Who's Online Now
569 registered members (10gaugemag, 160user, 1936M71, 163bc, 06hunter59, 1minute, 73 invisible), 2,123 guests, and 1,014 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3










Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2020 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 7.3.28 Page Time: 0.048s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8295 MB (Peak: 0.9378 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-05-14 21:48:14 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS