Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 41 vs .358 & 9.3 on bull moose observations:

Hi all,

Though my entry into the 41 caliber class of rifle is fairly limited at only six years, I have some observations I'd like to share:

One of the most desirable functions in my world, is to anchor very large bull moose where they are, as I'm the one who has to process this animal. Its my back and knees, which are very sore after three one year tours in the Iraq war as an Army Engineer.

I agree with Doctari that on very large game, the best window of velocity for penetration is 2200 fps-2500 fps. I understand that African game are different, but these Yukon bulls will stop many bullets. The terrain is remote, and there is no help of a crew or a landcruiser. When bulls that are in full rut are called in, they are all hopped up on hormones and rage.

Fatally hit bulls can cover some serious ground for just a few more seconds. I build boats for primarily moose hunters, so I see and hear alot of feedback. This, in combination with my direct experiences, I can honestly say that a 41 caliber is not out of place, or excessive for Alaskan game.

Along rivers, it only takes seconds for fatally hit bulls to stumble into the swift river and die. Only to get stuck in a wood pile up or under a cut bank. I prefer to hit square in the front end. Not soley lung shots, and certainly not neck shots.

My last two bulls died within feet of either a swift cut bank, or an oxbow swamp.

All my biggest bulls were taken with a 358 Winchester using 275 grain Woodleighs at 2200 fps, 9.3x62 Mauser using 300 grain swift A-frames at 2300 fps and more recently, a 41caliber wildcat off the 9.3 case shooting 350 grain A-frames at 2230 fps.

With the 358 and 9.3, generally there is no reaction from the big bulls and I'll pump a second one into them while they're still moving. They tip over quite fast after shot number 2. In one special case, the 358 winchester did instantly down a massive bull with one head-on shot that clipped the vertebrae as it entered high in the chest. Brief run-down of my experiences with the ole nine-three and the 358:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13539716/1

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/15870698/savage-99#Post15870698

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13268585/1


This year, a 350 grain, .410 A-frame instantly anchored a rut-charged bull on the first shot. It was more immediate than I've ever experienced. The anchoring effect is prevalent. The recoil was unnoticeable in the moment.

This rifle was 8.5 lbs with scope:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13233780/3

My older 9.3x62 carbine was 8.25 lbs scoped. My latest 416 Ruger is 8.3 lbs scoped.

This immediate anchoring of a rut charged bull on the dry bank, is not something I'm going to walk away from. It comes at a price, and the recoil is severe when sighting in or at the bench. In slow motion camera footage of me shooting these light 41 caliber rifles, they actually recoil and twist into your shoulder as the bullet rotates down the rifling. Full wrap checkering is a good thing.

I honestly can't shoot no more than 9-15 full power rounds in three shot groups in a single session, with either of these two mentioned 41 cal rifles. If I go past that, I have severe pain in my neck and shoulder for the rest of the day. An occasional head ache too.

I don't think a lightweight 400 whelen or 416 Ruger is a rifle for new moose hunters. Better to start with a 338-06, 35 whelen, 358 Winchester, 9.3x62 etc.

Secondary observations:

A fixed 2.75 x Burris or fixed 2.5 x Leopold gathers plenty of light in the dimmest first light. The course crosshairs show up very well. The extended eye relief of these two gems is perfect for the level of recoil. In my environment, the lightweight of these 6-7 ounce scopes is a bonus, and the magnification is plenty for typical ranges of calling bulls to YOU.

Recovered 350 grain A frame and 300 grain A-frames from the last two bulls:

The old bison hunters knew what was up with big, relatively slow bullets. Cool analysis, thanks for posting.

Clockwork,
I used to be quite dismissive of the 41s in my younger years. I thought they were overkill and uneeded. They're good outfits for anchoring Alaskan game where they are. The slow velocity combined with good bullets, doesn't appear to blood-shot the meat like a high velocity cartridge.

I'm looking forward to testing the 400 grain DGX bonded bullet. Doctari says good things about them:

https://youtu.be/EIsUw2j86DY

Mainer, always appreciate your posts. 👍

Surprised the 6.5 buttfuuck crowd hasn’t chimed in. Grin

Haha Jud the deer ham I cooked today was taken with a creedmoor. It sits between a 30-30 and a 280 in the safe, across from a 9.3x62.

Jud and clockwork,

A scoped 416 shooting 400 grain bullets at Rigby velocities, from a rifle that is within 6 ounces of Jack O'Connors #2 270 is "specialized" to say the least.

It is not a pleasant experience from home. But very pleasant on some remote wild river when that big warrior bull comes to the call

While empirical data is good...

One point - does not define a curve.

Keep us posted.


P.S. Try the 9.3x62/286 gr. A-Frame, at ~ 2400 fps.




GR

Mainer, how’s it you ended up with a .416 Ruger when you were earlier disparaging Hornady brass? Just curious what changed your mind.

I don't know why , but the first thing
that came to mind for thump'n moose
was .358 STA.




Id like to hear the qualified science behind that.

Empirical data and scientific modelling reveals that
higher Vel. with certain types of expanding projectiles
results in greater penetration.

PA, that Hornady brass definitely ain't no 9.3x62 Lapua or Norma brass. Less spring back if you pull a bullet. Have to size back down to get back neck tension. No need on the Lapua.

If crimping using the die, shoulder area is softer and will distort if crimp be too much. Never had this issue with Lapua brass. Could crimp as heavily as I deemed proper.

Anymore, it's Lee factory crimp die working with the Hornady brass.

Slight ejector marks using factory 416 Ruger and 338 RCM Hornady rounds. So probably a bit soft the whole way through.

Though finicky, I can work with it.

Us handloaders find these finicky things and adjust fire. Like that 9.3 rcbs die that was improperly sizing your 9.3 brass. After your case head separation on a fired case, you made some sobering adjustments.

I had another recent, finicky handloading issue with some PRVI 9.3 brass:

Some brass had too thick of a rim to fit into my hand priming tool.

Few years back:
Had some Winchester 358 win brass that had such loose primer pockets, you could press the cci primers into the brass with your finger tip.

Makes sense. You're absolutely right about the privi 9.3 rims. Come to find out my lee shell auto prime and press shell holders were too tight in tolerances for many of them. After dad died I inherited the old Forster Co-ax press, which solved that issue for cheap 9.3 brass. I love that old press.

I got a batch of soft winchester .300wsm brass back around '10 or '11 that had horrific ejector marks with the same load that had worked well for years.

mainer, I love to read your posts as they are well written and based on experience. Makes me feel like I'm there with you. :-)

A good write up Michael!

I gotta stop in your shop one of these days.

Vern,

Lots going on, 3 22 ft freighters, and a custom Honda efi igx800 motor that will be powering one of the freighter canoes.

Great thread, Mainer as always. I'm surprised none of the "bullet placement is all that matters" brigade hasn't chimed is that just about ANY caliber will suffice as long as the bullet is placed in the right spot. Me. I like the way you think. Whenever I make it up there and based on what friends have told me (and what I've heard), my 340 Weatherby Weathermark with 225gr TTSXs is my plan. Thoughts?

Thanks for the interesting post.

I’ve got the Ruger Alaskan, .416 Ruger with a Leupold 1.5x5 on it. Love that gun. No I impressive feats with it yet, just water jugs & one doe antelope.

For fun shooting & lighter game (like the antelope) I find a 350 gr. Speer over 79-80 gr. of Varget to be nearly pleasant in recoil. Shoots close to the same poi of the heavier 400 gr. Factory level stuff.

PA, that's purdy darn cool your father was a handloader. Must be a meaningful experience knocking out good nine three and 416 Taylor ammunition on a family heirloom.

Jorgel, geeze if I had that kinda case capacity on a 338 caliber, I'd probably load 275 grain swift A-frames to around what a 338 win mag would launch a 250 grainer. I'd find an extruded powder that yeilded decent velocity from a 22 inch barrel. My gunsmith charges about $40 to cut and crown.

Anteloper,
Sounds like good practice, with your big bore. You ever hunt those shiras moose down your way?

Not yet...

Thanks Jud, You just probably ruined my damn keyboard with coffee spray! RJ

Mainer, thanks for the post and your experiences. I'm planning on a Canada moose hunt in Sept. '22 and you are helping me with some decisions.