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Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15954347 03/30/21
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ttpoz Offline
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This has been a fascinating thread! I've enjoyed it greatly. Thanks to Hawk and other knowledgeable contributors. It has been rather humbling. I don't have the temperament, skillset, or pocketbook to even think of shooting at a level approaching what serious benchrest guys do. I suppose that when all is said and done, my thoughts are in line with those of Dirtfarmer and Drover. Still, its a great read and I hope there's more to follow.


ttpoz

in silvam ne ligna feras
(don't carry logs into the forest)
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Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15954475 03/30/21
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If one were to suggest the idea is fiction, you'd be saying all cartridges, regardless of neck length, shoulder angle, length, width, throat design, primer size, etc., are all equal. That none of that matters. I don't believe that. I just think other non-cartridge specific factors like the barrel, bolt, bedding, how it all aligns, and so on, makes enough of a difference that it becomes very difficult to know where accuracy is coming from, or what's preventing it on any given rifle. Having loaded for a handful of 6.5 Creedmoors, I believe that it is a good mousetrap. But one with a poor barrel, poor assembly, or whatever will not have the accuracy of countless other rifles in other cartridges that are well executed. There's significant overlap amongst most it seems.

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: prm] #15954540 03/30/21
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Clarkm Offline
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Originally Posted by prm
... it becomes very difficult to know where accuracy is coming from, or what's preventing it...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory

I have pursed accuracy in shooting, machining, and designing electronics.

I thought I had a feel for how to manage my errors.
Then in 2006 I designed an amplifier that was mass produced and tested by computer.
The auto test computer sent me test data.
The Gaussian distribution of errors in output was a million times more accurate than I expected.
My seat of the pants feel for it did not allow that 100 errors cancel a lot more than they add.

That questions the accuracy rituals of shooting that I abandoned because they did not seem to make a difference.


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Clarkm] #15954626 03/30/21
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Originally Posted by Clarkm
Originally Posted by prm
... it becomes very difficult to know where accuracy is coming from, or what's preventing it...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory

I have pursed accuracy in shooting, machining, and designing electronics.

I thought I had a feel for how to manage my errors.
Then in 2006 I designed an amplifier that was mass produced and tested by computer.
The auto test computer sent me test data.
The Gaussian distribution of errors in output was a million times more accurate than I expected.
My seat of the pants feel for it did not allow that 100 errors cancel a lot more than they add.

That questions the accuracy rituals of shooting that I abandoned because they did not seem to make a difference.




I realize that the answer will be complex, but I'm really curious what you came up with here

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: marksman1941] #15954671 03/30/21
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The more subtle the differences, the greater the cohort numbers required to establish statistical relevance.

With too many variables and with really minute differences, it's highly likely that no definitive statistical conclusion will ever be reached.

That's my feeling for what we're dealing with here. There are a LOT of variables associated with shooters, their techniques, rifle quality, barrel characteristics, load differences, on and on. With an almost infinite amount of clutter to deal with, there will probably too much glare to see the light.

DF

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Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: marksman1941] #15954891 03/30/21
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Clarkm Offline
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Originally Posted by marksman1941



I realize that the answer will be complex, but I'm really curious what you came up with here


I quit truing actions ~2004.
I seldom turn necks.
I don't weigh brass.
I don't weigh metered powder charges.
I seat 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 280ai, 7mmRM, and 300WM all at 3.34" OAL.
I don't use a gimbal in the lathe, I just count on the 6 jaw's D1-4 mount being lose enough to steer with the spider with a minimum moment arm bending the barrel..


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15954961 03/30/21
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Elvis Offline
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Interesting read. My 6.5 Creedmoor is a very accurate rifle with all the accuracy features, 30 degree shoulder, short powder column, straight side walls..............................but so is my 7x64 with tall powder column, sloping side walls and 20 degree shoulder angle. Hmmm.

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Elvis] #15955045 03/30/21
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Originally Posted by Elvis
.............................but so is my 7x64 with tall powder column, sloping side walls and 20 degree shoulder angle. Hmmm.



That's because it's a 7mm.

wink


Hunt with Class and Classics

Don't bend a knee. Bow your back.






Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: HawkI] #15955232 03/30/21
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Originally Posted by HawkI
The Houston Warehouse

According to this article, he used a 22 PPC.


I very much enjoyed reading this article. Thanks for the link.

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Clarkm] #15955358 03/30/21
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Jordan Smith Offline
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Originally Posted by Clarkm
Originally Posted by prm
... it becomes very difficult to know where accuracy is coming from, or what's preventing it...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory

I have pursed accuracy in shooting, machining, and designing electronics.

I thought I had a feel for how to manage my errors.
Then in 2006 I designed an amplifier that was mass produced and tested by computer.
The auto test computer sent me test data.
The Gaussian distribution of errors in output was a million times more accurate than I expected.
My seat of the pants feel for it did not allow that 100 errors cancel a lot more than they add.

That questions the accuracy rituals of shooting that I abandoned because they did not seem to make a difference.



Clark,

There's a difference between not knowing or understanding all the variables involved in a system, and trying to explain contradictions between empirical observations and our physical models of the universe by assuming that there must be some local hidden variables that we don't know about and that uniquely determine the state of a system (as in the case of using the deterministic Hidden Variable theory to try to refute the non-deterministic nature of quantum mechanics). In short, Hidden Variable theory is not applicable here. In metrology, the concepts of uncertainty and error are distinct and meaningful, but are constantly conflated in various disciplines. Uncertainty describes our confidence that our prediction/measurement matches reality (associated with precision/group size), and error refers to the difference between our prediction/measurement and reality (similar to the concept of accuracy). It is a common rule of thumb that if there are multiple sources of uncertainty, but one source is dominant over the others by a factor of ~3 or more, the other sources can essentially be neglected.

The example of rifle "accuracy" is such a case. If our certainty about where each bullet will go has a certain level of precision (which we usually refer to as group size), this is really the addition in quadrature of the many individual sources of uncertainty, from bedding, to barrel quality, to machine work, to bullet consistency, to case design, etc., etc. I think most guys here have correctly identified that in most situations the uncertainty in POI is much larger due to sources like bedding and ammo quality than from inherent case design, so in most cases the case design can be neglected. But when it comes to many BR shooters, where the uncertainty in shot placement due to bedding, ammo quality, barrel quality, etc., has been reduced to the point where those sources of uncertainty are comparable to the uncertainty due to inherent case design, then case design can make a difference and can't be neglected.

IC-B

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15955359 03/30/21
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dogcatcher223 Offline
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I do agree the shorter cases with steeper shoulders appear to be accurate. I own a 6.5x55 and everytime I shoot it I think "boy, the swedes got this right." It seems to defy logic since its neither short nor steep, but it's the least fussy cartridge I've ever loaded for.


From a place you will not see, comes a sound you will not hear.
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: dogcatcher223] #15955568 03/30/21
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dogcatcher,

Actually, the 6.5x55 has a relatively steep shoulder angle and body length, especially when compared to other cartridges of the day--and many later cartridges.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, considerable research indicates a shoulder angle of about (not necessarily exactly) 30 degrees results in the most consistent powder-burn. The 6.5x55's shoulder angle is a little more than 25 degrees.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
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Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Jordan Smith] #15955570 03/30/21
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Clarkm Offline
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Clark,

There's a difference between not knowing or understanding all the variables involved in a system, and trying to explain contradictions between empirical observations and our physical models of the universe by assuming that there must be some local hidden variables that we don't know about and that uniquely determine the state of a system (as in the case of using the deterministic Hidden Variable theory to try to refute the non-deterministic nature of quantum mechanics). .


Well yeah, in the sense that the phrase "hidden variable theory" is more specific than an unknown out of control variable(s).

I took honors physics from Brown before he wrote the book "Quantum Field Theory"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_S._Brown

And I can tell you he was rabidly anti gun.
They fixed his problem. Physics is now explained in terms of baseballs.


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Mule Deer] #15955614 03/30/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
dogcatcher,

Actually, the 6.5x55 has a relatively steep shoulder angle and body length, especially when compared to other cartridges of the day--and many later cartridges.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, considerable research indicates a shoulder angle of about (not necessarily exactly) 30 degrees results in the most consistent powder-burn. The 6.5x55's shoulder angle is a little more than 25 degrees.


Thank you for the reply. You gave me reloading advice for this cartridge years ago and it is much appreciated.


From a place you will not see, comes a sound you will not hear.
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: Clarkm] #15955923 03/30/21
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Jordan Smith Offline
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Originally Posted by Clarkm
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Clark,

There's a difference between not knowing or understanding all the variables involved in a system, and trying to explain contradictions between empirical observations and our physical models of the universe by assuming that there must be some local hidden variables that we don't know about and that uniquely determine the state of a system (as in the case of using the deterministic Hidden Variable theory to try to refute the non-deterministic nature of quantum mechanics). .


Well yeah, in the sense that the phrase "hidden variable theory" is more specific than an unknown out of control variable(s).

I took honors physics from Brown before he wrote the book "Quantum Field Theory"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_S._Brown

And I can tell you he was rabidly anti gun.
They fixed his problem. Physics is now explained in terms of baseballs.

Exactly. The point I was trying to make is that Hidden Variable theory is not about unknown variables in a system, but rather alternative explanations for quantum entanglement.

I had a supervisor when I was doing a thesis in theoretical quantum physics that liked to use the phrase “that’s a smoking gun”, referring to a piece of convincing evidence of some underlying process. I never asked how he actually felt about guns, but he sure didn’t mind talking about them!

Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15956130 03/30/21
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DigitalDan Offline
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I have noticed that Mule Deer is inherently accurate. What confuses me is I don't think he has 30* shoulders, uniform neck dimensions or perfect head symmetry. Maybe it's those load recopies his better half cooks up?


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: DigitalDan] #15956174 03/30/21
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gnoahhh Offline
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Originally Posted by DigitalDan
I have noticed that Mule Deer is inherently accurate. What confuses me is I don't think he has 30* shoulders, uniform neck dimensions or perfect head symmetry. Maybe it's those load recopies his better half cooks up?


That, or the Varget he sprinkles on his corn flakes and the Bullseye that sweetens his coffee.


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: gnoahhh] #15956274 03/30/21
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DigitalDan and gnoahhh,

Thanks--I think!

Perhaps the two biggest "accuracy factors" I've found when testing rifles are (1) making sure bullets are seated straight, and (2) using wind-flags AT the range.

"Discovered" both about the same time three decades ago. The guy who started me with wind flags was the late Mickey Coleman, a very good benchrest gunsmith, who at a get-together at a West Virginia hunting club where Melvin Forbes was a member, had me shoot one of his superbly accurate rifles (a 6mm PPC) at 100 yards, with several wind flags between the bench and target. This demonstrated exactly how much even tiny wind variations (even on just one flag) can matter when shooting a rifle capable of putting 5 shots into one hole.

This was also confirmed about the same time by reading by Dick Wright's articles in Precision Shooter magazine. Dick is also a noted benchrest gunsmith, shooter, loading-tool maker, and long-time experimenter. He joined the Campfire a few years ago, but quit logging on a couple years back. His articles on shooting in PS always included "TAKE THE DAMN WIND FLAGS."

In the 30 years since have seen ONE other shooter put out wind-flags on a local public range--another Campfire member who knows who he is.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: OldSchool_BestSchool] #15956314 03/30/21
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DigitalDan Offline
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Yep, wind flags....learned about that at a 200 yd BP match in Cody about 10 years back. Full value L-R 10G20. Those puffs will get ya dang near every time.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Inherent Accuracy: Fact or Fiction? [Re: ctsmith] #15956388 03/30/21
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Originally Posted by ctsmith
Originally Posted by HawkI
The Houston Warehouse

According to this article, he used a 22 PPC.


I very much enjoyed reading this article. Thanks for the link.


It was shared here once before; I enjoyed it too the first time it was posted here.

I spent two or three hours talking to Randy Robinett (when I was on the clock). His next foray at that time was 25 caliber bullets (on the PPC case of course).

Inherent accuracy, after a conversation with him, has more to do with the lack of many wanting to experiment in short range BR more than anything else. 25 years the 222, several for the 22PPC, the 6PPC since and the 6x47 and some BRs thrown in.

Ive mentioned these things before, but in theory the 300 Savage and the 30 TC should have the 308 whipped at every turn in whoever's ballistic lab, but they dont, not the least of which is that they dont recoil less than the 308 and actions and capacities are about identical.



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