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Girls and Glocks #15967560 04/03/21
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McInnis Offline OP
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First let me say I don't know much about semi-auto handguns. I started shooting revolvers and fell in love with them a long time ago and never really saw the need for anything else. I know I'm in the minority but I think I've only shot semi-autos three times in my life, including last week.

A friend came to visit. My wife and I knew her as a little girl when she grew up next door to us. Since then we've both moved around and now she's a young woman living in a nearby town. She's really a neat person, loves all kind of outdoors stuff including guns. She has a new AR-15 she brought so I took her to the gun range. She brought her model 19 with her. She's had it a while, don't know how much she's shot it.

The thing jammed on her nearly every time. I took it and it jammed on me the first time (I've heard about what happens when you limp wrist a Glock), then I figured out I need to grip it more firmly than I'm used to gripping my revolvers. We talked about that, but she still couldn't keep it from jamming.

She's a slim little thing, maybe weighs 105 lbs when soaking wet. But she's wiry. While here she helped me load bags of top soil in the truck for a new greenhouse and she handled them like a man. She told us she goes to the gym every day after work and I believe it. And she enjoyed firing a S&W model 629 of mine with near-full .44 mag loads and enjoyed it. But she could not grip that Glock hard enough to keep in from jamming. Is this common? Is there any technique that could help her besides just holding the thing tighter? Are other semi-auto pistols as prone to this issue?

She bought this pistol for self defense but I hate the thought of her needing to use it until she can overcome this. My wife and I both suggested she get a revolver but that seemed to have no interest to her. Like everyone else her age I'm sure she thinks of them like I think of flintlock pistols, a relic of long ago.

Any thoughts?

BP-B2

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967710 04/03/21
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What kind of ammo did she have?

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: thumbcocker] #15967799 04/03/21
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I didn’t notice, she was loading the magazines. They were factory loads. I’m not thinking it was ammo related or at least not entirely. After my first try I ran off several consecutive rounds without a problem and she said that when her brother shot it that it never jammed on him.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967807 04/03/21
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That doesn't sound right. I'm an old guy, don't have big hands or a gorilla grip, and my Glocks are fine, never hiccup.

Something else must be going on.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967865 04/03/21
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What type of malfunction? That can help diagnose the problem.


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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967883 04/03/21
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It's hard to diagnose from a distance, but I'd say the problem is not as much the grip strength as it is the firmness of the wrists. When the gun can twist in the hand it can short stroke and thus malfunction. I'd increase the control group first and have someone familiar with glocks run a mag or two through it, just to see if the grip is really the problem. Remember: High up, firm wrists.


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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967909 04/03/21
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Glocks are certainly not limpwrist proof.

However, I was at the range when a smallish woman was first learning to shoot, and the man she was with had brought what he thought was a good variety of guns for her to shoot, but apparently the guy was a collector of vintage type guns, so Lugers and such were on the table, but nothing modern. I offered to let her try my Glock 19. She shot it just fine. Emptied the mag without a hitch. Didn't hit the target much, but no malfunctions.


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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15967993 04/03/21
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It sounds like an ammo problem to me. I don't like Glocks, but I gotta say they usually work well. If she's not limp-wristing it, it's almost gotta be an ammo issue.


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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: MOGC] #15968074 04/03/21
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Originally Posted by MOGC
What type of malfunction? That can help diagnose the problem.


After firing the slide would move just far enough to partially eject the empty cartridge. Usually the spent brass would be stuck perpendicular to the chamber.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968128 04/03/21
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Common issue with Glocks. It's practically an antique design. A metal frame pistol would work better for her because it doesn't depend as much on her wrist strength as a Glock. CZ, Beretta or S&W are all good. Suggest a Walther if she wants plastic. PPS is great or they have the easy cocking models.


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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968141 04/03/21
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Sounds like ammo issue to me

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968156 04/03/21
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We used to see this quite a bit in IDPA matches and practices. Smaller/lighter stature shooters (more frequently women that didn't have upper body mass) would end up with a malfunction every shot when shooting around a barricade or from an unusual position where they couldn't lean their entire body into the pistol with locked elbows in an isosceles stance. These were very accomplished shooters that could shoot very well when they could get their entire body behind the pistol, so they were very unhappy. As it turns out, the Glock pistol frame actually flexes when cycling and requires resistance to allow the slide to cycle its full length. Most of these shooters switched to steel frame 1911's to solve the problem until the S&W M&P came out. Eventually many of them switched to the M&P and had no problems no matter what the position. The difference is that the Glock has those separate small metal rail inserts molded in the frame whereas the S&W M&P has a full length metal insert for all four rails which keeps the frame stiff during cycling and prevents the frame from flexing. Over the past several years other makers have started producing similar pistols with full length metal inserts (such as the SIG 320 and 365 and 365XL series) and the problem has pretty much disappeared amongst the more practiced shooters. The fact that you could put a hard hold on the pistol and didn't have a malfunction suggests this is probably the issue, not the ammo. I would suggest she try to borrow or rent a S&W M&P (or a SIG 320 or 365XL) and see if the problem disappears using the same ammo she was previously shooting. I have shot/carried Glocks for 30+ years now and I love them, but technology has moved on and I think some of the new offerings are a better mousetrap. I am especially impressed with the SIG 365XL and a Holosun 507K red dot installed on top. Hope this helps!

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968198 04/03/21
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Originally Posted by McInnis
Originally Posted by MOGC
What type of malfunction? That can help diagnose the problem.


After firing the slide would move just far enough to partially eject the empty cartridge. Usually the spent brass would be stuck perpendicular to the chamber.


Her shooting technique is not providing enough firm resistance for the gun to work against. This could be grip, wrist, elbow or shoulder. Somewhere in her form she is soft.


Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: fullauto01] #15968223 04/03/21
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McInnis Offline OP
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Originally Posted by fullauto01
We used to see this quite a bit in IDPA matches and practices. Smaller/lighter stature shooters (more frequently women that didn't have upper body mass) would end up with a malfunction every shot when shooting around a barricade or from an unusual position where they couldn't lean their entire body into the pistol with locked elbows in an isosceles stance. These were very accomplished shooters that could shoot very well when they could get their entire body behind the pistol, so they were very unhappy. As it turns out, the Glock pistol frame actually flexes when cycling and requires resistance to allow the slide to cycle its full length. Most of these shooters switched to steel frame 1911's to solve the problem until the S&W M&P came out. Eventually many of them switched to the M&P and had no problems no matter what the position. The difference is that the Glock has those separate small metal rail inserts molded in the frame whereas the S&W M&P has a full length metal insert for all four rails which keeps the frame stiff during cycling and prevents the frame from flexing. Over the past several years other makers have started producing similar pistols with full length metal inserts (such as the SIG 320 and 365 and 365XL series) and the problem has pretty much disappeared amongst the more practiced shooters. The fact that you could put a hard hold on the pistol and didn't have a malfunction suggests this is probably the issue, not the ammo. I would suggest she try to borrow or rent a S&W M&P (or a SIG 320 or 365XL) and see if the problem disappears using the same ammo she was previously shooting. I have shot/carried Glocks for 30+ years now and I love them, but technology has moved on and I think some of the new offerings are a better mousetrap. I am especially impressed with the SIG 365XL and a Holosun 507K red dot installed on top. Hope this helps!


Thanks, that’s a lot of of information. That helps me understand, not sure what to do to help her. She doesn’t have a lot of money so buying another pistol might not be an option.

Are you Glock guys able to fire yours with one hand without problems?

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968285 04/03/21
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The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
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Originally Posted by McInnis

Are you Glock guys able to fire yours with one hand without problems?

Of course. If my Glock ever failed (least of all failed frequently) in odd shooting positions, I'd get rid of it. I practice one handed shooting, both left and right, whenever I shoot my Glock. It's part of my routine. Important skills to have with any handgun carried for defense.


"Our prayers are with the family of George Floyd, and our prayers are also with the family of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia. We have no tolerance for racism in America. We have no tolerance for violence inspired by racism."

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Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968382 04/03/21
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Im not a Glock shooter and can't keep track of the model numbers. Daughter got a new 380 acp Glock before they made a new 9mm the same size. Brought it to the range on a kind of family outing. Jammed on her. I tried it, ran like a top. She had kicked a malfunctioning stroller earlier that day to apply some needed motherly alignment. I told her to treat the Glock like that stroller. Ran like a top for her too after that.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: Boomer454] #15968384 04/03/21
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Originally Posted by Boomer454
It's hard to diagnose from a distance, but I'd say the problem is not as much the grip strength as it is the firmness of the wrists. When the gun can twist in the hand it can short stroke and thus malfunction. I'd increase the control group first and have someone familiar with glocks run a mag or two through it, just to see if the grip is really the problem. Remember: High up, firm wrists.
I agree that this is the most probable cause. Lock the wrists.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: urbaneruralite] #15968389 04/03/21
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Originally Posted by urbaneruralite
Common issue with Glocks. It's practically an antique design. A metal frame pistol would work better for her because it doesn't depend as much on her wrist strength as a Glock. CZ, Beretta or S&W are all good. Suggest a Walther if she wants plastic. PPS is great or they have the easy cocking models.

This is funny. You say the Glock is an antique design and then you name a bunch of much older models.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968863 04/03/21
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Sounds like ammo or the gun.

Even when trying, I can't seem to replicate the infamous limp wrist jam. My wife and MIL have regularly shot my G19s and G17... they're novice, novice shooters and they never have issues either. In fact, I probably have a combined ~25k rounds through my current G17, G19, and G19X and maybe have had a couple stovepipes. That's shooting mostly 124gr 9mm NATO and some 115 WWB / Federal.

Has the gun been disassembled and if so, how far down? I ask because the one exception to my experience with malfunctions was caused by me, when I accidentally put the firing pin safety spring back in sideways. It's tiny and easy to do without noticing. The gun jammed up constantly... hell even would let out an occasionally three round burst, with one trigger pull, and then jam up. I took it apart on the range, identified the problem, reassembled it and it shot fine after that.

Re: Girls and Glocks [Re: McInnis] #15968920 04/03/21
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Firing pin safety spring in sideways... trying to picture how you could do that?


Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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