Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Q; Balance of Double Rifles?

I have long wanted an English double rifle. I did purchase two Russian (Baikal) double years ago. My examples were horrible. Fit finish was poor. The extractors for the 30/06 were a mess (I fixed that with a conversion to rimmed 30/06). The 45/70 was made on the same barrels as the 30 cal. and was only 7-1/4. I am not recoil sensitive, but this thing was beyond controllable. Most importantly I do not believe the almighty himself could get them to regulate the barrels together. However, they did balance much like a double shotgun, which brings me to my question.

Recently I have handled a Woodward /(450 NE 3-1/4") and a Rhoda (.500 BPE). Both were in good to excellent, shootable condition. There were mechanically OK, and on face. Bores were very good. Wood was solid. Each ultimately sold for affordable prices at local auction. However, when I picked each one up they were decidedly nose heavy. They were nothing like a lively fine double shotgun which balances on the hinge pin.

I understand rifles and shotgun operate a much different pressures, hence the barrels would be constructed differently. Still I expected the overall pieces to handle very nicely. In my hands they failed this test enough my impression was, "ick, I don't like how these feel. Glad I handled them first."

I have also handled numerous drillings. These also are a bit heavy overall, but seem to balance slightly forward of the hinge, much better than the double rifles. I realize these are essentially double shotguns with a pencil thin rifle barrels added. whatever, the creators made them handy.

To me fit and balance is paramount for any firearm. No matter how wonderful the craftsmanship, if it doe not fit me, I is useless, to me. The doubles rifles I have handled do not meet my criteria, so far. Do I need to adjust my thinking or simply walk away from the double rifle infatuation? I am simply underwhelmed and surprised. What is your opinion?

Thank you.

How long were the barrels? 24" vs. 26" makes a huge difference.

My Jeffery's balances right in front of the hinge, and I think that perfect. I don't like barrel heavy guns.

Oh, and let me add that there are few things you can handle that instantly become a part of you like a well made English rifle or shotgun. The term that they feel "alive" is apt.

If you've ever dreamed of owning one, treat yourself. You will not regret it. The money you put into is an investment taht will never go bad.

Hatari,

I would agree if and when I find one like you have described. I am a guy who shoots what he owes. These would be no exception. So far I have not handled a double rifle which feels like I want to invest in it. Perhaps I will eventually find one. Thanks for the reply.

500 Nitro Express with 24 inch barrels is the closest i've ever felt, if weight is not a concern, have heard of folk adding one or two recoil reducers in the buttstock to balance the rifle as well as help with recoil.

They being what they are is the challenge, easy to balance a rifle with one barrel, and thin shotgun barrels with a large holes are a dream to balance as well as carry.

I have only owned 1 double, a John Rigby .350 No2 and it balanced better than anything that can be stated in words. It was truly comfortable to carry, shoulder and fire.
Didn't do a lot of timber or short range hunting at the time so let it go.
Made it 1912, it still shot 1.5" for 6 shots (3 each barrel) at 50 yards using the express sights and utilized .358 caliber bullets so it was very easy to load for.

In the heavier calibres English double rifles tend to be muzzle heavy. This was to limit the muzzle rise under recoil in an effort to reduce recovery time for a second shot.

There is nothing exclusive about "English" double rifles. There are very good, even superior doubles made in Austria, Germany, Belgium, France, and Italy. I would buy a modern double from one of those countries long before I'd buy a vintage English double, simply because of value for money. Modern guns have superior strength, are usually regulated for modern ammunition, and are mechanically ... new. Also parts are generally available in the exceptionally rare circumstance that they may be necessary. Expand your search a bit. You may find that modern doubles fit you and handle as you hoped.

I grew up shooting Parker SxS guns and still do. For me ,they have the "Magic Wand" feel that so many shooters desire. Even after all these years, they sometimes surprise me when we (they/I) make an amazing instinct shot ! To me that is one mark of thee Right gun. Not many of the double rifles that I have handled have the same feel.

I have discovered and purchased two big bore doubles that approach that magic feel and I know why - they are based on refined, high quality double shotguns that handled well before they were converted to double rifles and the gun maker was also a bird hunter and knew how to properly do the conversion. One is based upon a Beretta 12 ga with 26 inch barrels and the other on a German Simson Co Suhl 12 gauge with 24 inch barrels. . Both fit me to a T and are fast handling, accurate, and manage the recoil quite well. I had looked for such guns for several years and knew they were right for me when I first found them. This was confirmed when I first drew blood with each rifle - they just came to my shoulder and went off when the sights felt right - another sign of the Right gun for me.
Something like when you first meet the right girl to marry - you know it when it happens.

Given the cost of a double, I'd make the pilgrimage to Champlin Arms in Enid, OK. They have a boat load of doubles. You can handle all of them and talk with people who genuinely know what they're doing.


Okie John

Very good feedback one and all. I my default for any gun is it has to fit ME. If I get past that, often other topics like recoil, accuracy, fast handling, even cost get addressed. Alternately, an otherwise excellent deal (cost) has much less value if it does not fit me or feel right. Think cast and blast has a good point about looking past vintage English doubles. Provided the fit is right, feeding a modern gun should be much easier. THANK YOU!

Being a long time wing shooter I understand fully about the balance and liveliness of a long gun. Several years ago I ran across my “bucket list” double rifle, a Westley Richards 450#2 made in 1905. I had handled many many double rifles and most felt hideous in hand even though some were fine doubles by well respected English makers. The WR &Co felt like a part of me. It’s balance flowed like water to be slightly barrel heavy and quick to point even though it weighs 11&1/4 pounds. You definitely need to put guns in hand and shoulder them as you well know and let the gun pick you.

let the gun pick you.

Amen!

The right way to buy a double IMO is not to trust anyone but yourself.Most people will tell you their double works,shoots and fits perfect-very few do.Best thing to do is try the double beforehand-take it to the range at least three different times and shoot it at 50yds.If it shoots good and doesn't hurt you when you shoot it you have a good gun.If it looks good that is a plus.If you do it any other way you will be sorry.Back in the prewar years the english knew how to make doubles.Today people receive new doubles that are "broken" and with all kinds of issues right from the seller.When you want to buy a double you get emotional and inpatient,you become an unreasonable maniac and make a stupid decision and don't do the things I described above.Usually the second time around the same mistake is made all over again.

My Merkel has a heavy metal bar in the buttstock to help achieve good balance.

Isn't that a mercury break?

No, a solid metal bar (looks to be blued steel). It has a groove with rubber o-ring to keep one end centred in the channel (and stop it rattling), and threaded hole that a plate screws into that then also screws into the timber. I'll post photos later today.

Just being a heavy bar would help with recoil anyway.

Here's the photos:


Bar with o-ring on LHS and "plate" on RHS of bar:




Hole in stock for bar and broken screw for "plate": (the 470 & 500NE always bust this screw)




Bar and "plate" close up side on:




Bar and "plate" close up end on:

Interesting.Thanks for the pics.

Should balance between your hands and point like a GSP!

That from the H&H’s I own or have owned, and others I have handled. Including a 500NE Royal Dlx I owned. Weight 10lbs 10oz.

The rest I wouldn’t buy if the don’t feel alive in your hands, like a fine upland game gun.