Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
While I'm not an expert on much of anything, I'd suggest that you're not wrong about the state of the safari industry after Kenya and a couple other countries shut down hunting.
As I believe you know, we had friends of the family who lived in Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda and Zambia, so we kept a bit more updated on what was going on there than perhaps others might have. When we were taken out near the Rift Valley for a quick weekend hunt in late 1975 it left a lasting impression on me for sure.
One other thing that occurred to me in typing this response is that in the early '80's there was no .416 Rigby brass and even projectile choice was much slimmer. The .470 ammo one saw was ancient Kynoch as I recall it. When the safari industry kicked into gear enough that Federal loaded .470, it was something of note - or I thought so at the time anyways.
All that to say the "African" arms trade with all it entailed certainly benefited from PHC books too. I know my shooting mentor made a .416 Rigby because of reading African hunting books including PHC and he never ever mentioned a desire to hunt there, but did end up building that "stopper" at least in part because of the books.
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
I never had any intention of pissing on a dead man's grave, but I don't think that it is out of line to point out that there have been different perspectives about PHC posted on this site by people who knew him.
In a thread started by The Shootist on 06/26/07, Toltecgriz posted the following on 06/28/07. "I didn't mean to be obtuse and didn't think I was. I didn't want to go into details again beyond what I've said previously. I was just saying there's more to the story than there appears That said, many of the stories he related in Death in the Long Grass did not happen as told by him. At the time I was with him, he was a nice guy and didn't drink that much. He was a decent camp companion, but I'm thankful he wasn't my PH.
He was a good story teller.".
Different people who knew him in different places, in different decades, have shared their different perspectives.
I never met the man, so all I "know" about him is what I've read, much of it on this very site.
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
I don't believe PHC ever claimed military service, let alone being a Green Beret- that was/is a fantasy of Tink Nathan, who as I said earlier is more full of sh*t than a Christmas turkey.
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
Excellent post!
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
I never had any intention of pissing on a dead man's grave, but I don't think that it is out of line to point out that there have been different perspectives about PHC posted on this site by people who knew him.
In a thread started by The Shootist on 06/26/07, Toltecgriz posted the following on 06/28/07. "I didn't mean to be obtuse and didn't think I was. I didn't want to go into details again beyond what I've said previously. I was just saying there's more to the story than there appears That said, many of the stories he related in Death in the Long Grass did not happen as told by him. At the time I was with him, he was a nice guy and didn't drink that much. He was a decent camp companion, but I'm thankful he wasn't my PH.
He was a good story teller.".
Different people who knew him in different places, in different decades, have shared their different perspectives.
I never met the man, so all I "know" about him is what I've read, much of it on this very site.
I have absolutely ZERO issues with what you posted HERE. I just took exception to the post where your tone came across (use of the word "claim" to instill an air of non-credibility) to someone I know who is absolutely credible. It's that simple.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
jorge1, i have all his books, and have scoured them for anything relating to Military service. the only thing i have found is in his book Maneaters, page 105 he alludes to some type of military service or at least deadly conflict. i always assumed it was in the Rhodesian Bush War. no where else have i come across him claiming service in any nations military.
Agreed. I just "agreed" to look into it because it irritates me to no end, every time there is a PHC thread, the ankle biter brigade comes out trying to disparage the man when in reality, the ENTIRE African hunting industry owes their very existence to him, at least post 1980 when it was all but dead.
I never had any intention of pissing on a dead man's grave, but I don't think that it is out of line to point out that there have been different perspectives about PHC posted on this site by people who knew him.
In a thread started by The Shootist on 06/26/07, Toltecgriz posted the following on 06/28/07. "I didn't mean to be obtuse and didn't think I was. I didn't want to go into details again beyond what I've said previously. I was just saying there's more to the story than there appears That said, many of the stories he related in Death in the Long Grass did not happen as told by him. At the time I was with him, he was a nice guy and didn't drink that much. He was a decent camp companion, but I'm thankful he wasn't my PH.
He was a good story teller.".
Different people who knew him in different places, in different decades, have shared their different perspectives.
I never met the man, so all I "know" about him is what I've read, much of it on this very site.
I have absolutely ZERO issues with what you posted HERE. I just took exception to the post where your tone came across (use of the word "claim" to instill an air of non-credibility) to someone I know who is absolutely credible. It's that simple.
Your posting that I responded to suggested to me that you were defending PHC's honor, not Hatari's, since you wrote that you were attempting to hunt down his military record because you felt that he was being disparaged. I have no reason to doubt Hatari's veracity and using the word "claims" was not intended to cast doubt on him, but to differentiate between what I may believe and what I know to be factual.
Jeff, it should be easy enough to verify his military service. I'll let you know
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Gents, an update of PHC's military record, my friend who is pretty good at this stuff (he's a history buff and digs through all kinds of gov't records at such places like the National Archives, etc), has not yet been able to find his record. Ideally, besides a name and DOB, the person's SSN is the best way and we don't have that. Might take a bit longer, but we'll continue to try. As an aside, where exactly (in what book?) did PHC claim military service as a Green Beret? I remember something about ROTC at UVA but can't quite remember.
It certainly sounds like you and your friend who is good at the stuff are having an easy time of it.
Hey, let me take a stab at parsing your post down to what it actually says:
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
SomebodyA guy [who I did not and do not know, but I'm pretty sure I remember this absolutely correctly and he was super honest even though he was using a fake name and I have no idea who he really was ] posted on this site[or maybe somewhere else]some years ago [I'm really not sure when] that he knew the PH that PHC cited in a story [and I don't know who the PH was or even the PH's name, nor the actual story in question] about culling cape buffalo and when asked about it [by who knows who], the PH [who I don't know and don't know his name] who was with PHC said that PHC took some liberties with it to make it a better story. IIRC [I admit that my recall is somewhat suspect, but please take my word for it that this stuff is Fecking Gospel] that PH also claimed that PHC borrowed adventures that other PHs had and claimed them as his own.
Yeah. "I know a guy who talked to a guy who said something about a different guy. Well, actually I don't know the guy, but I'm totally sure he's 100% honest, even though he wouldn't tell me his real name or any specifics about the story."
So. You repeated a bunch of unsubstantiated rumor and gossip, and in doing so you have slandered a dead man's reputation. A man who was known to people who come here for mutual edification. A man who has brought joy to millions of readers over the years. Without a shred of actual evidence. Just a fecking rumor.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. But what the hell, this is the fecking innanet. Who cares, right?
I care. You are as despicable for posting that as a man who claims military service without having actually served (something you allege you care about). You owe everyone here an apology.
Last edited by DocRocket; 04/29/21.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Hey, let me take a stab at parsing your post down to what it actually says:
Originally Posted by 260Remguy
SomebodyA guy [who I did not and do not know, but I'm pretty sure I remember this absolutely correctly and he was super honest even though he was using a fake name and I have no idea who he really was ] posted on this site[or maybe somewhere else]some years ago [I'm really not sure when] that he knew the PH that PHC cited in a story [and I don't know who the PH was or even the PH's name, nor the actual story in question] about culling cape buffalo and when asked about it [by who knows who], the PH [who I don't know and don't know his name] who was with PHC said that PHC took some liberties with it to make it a better story. IIRC [I admit that my recall is somewhat suspect, but please take my word for it that this stuff is Fecking Gospel] that PH also claimed that PHC borrowed adventures that other PHs had and claimed them as his own.
Yeah. "I know a guy who talked to a guy who said something about a different guy. Well, actually I don't know the guy, but I'm totally sure he's 100% honest, even though he wouldn't tell me his real name or any specifics about the story."
So. You repeated a bunch of unsubstantiated rumor and gossip, and in doing so you have slandered a dead man's reputation. A man who was known to people who come here for mutual edification. A man who has brought joy to millions of readers over the years. Without a shred of actual evidence. Just a fecking rumor.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. But what the hell, this is the fecking innanet. Who cares, right?
I care. You are as despicable for posting that as a man who claims military service without having actually served (something you allege you care about). You owe everyone here an apology.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
I chose to believe what Toltecgriz posted on 06/28/07. "I didn't mean to be obtuse and didn't think I was. I didn't want to go into details again beyond what I've said previously. I was just saying there's more to the story than there appears That said, many of the stories he related in Death in the Long Grass did not happen as told by him. At the time I was with him, he was a nice guy and didn't drink that much. He was a decent camp companion, but I'm thankful he wasn't my PH.
He was a good story teller.".
He wrote a good deal more about his experience with PHC, so if you're interested, you can find it and read it for yourself,.
We're all free to form our own opinions.
Many writers have borrowed and embellished stories to make them "better". I agree with Toltecgriz's comment, that he was a good story teller.
As far as his military service, the only place that I've ever seen that was in the Tink Nathan obituary. Nathan claims to have been a close personal friend of PHC, so if anyone would know the facts, wouldn't it be more likely to be a close personal friend? Having served in the U.S. Army for awhile, the time-line for someone to join, be trained, and serve seems too tight to be true. However, that is based on what I know about the U.S. Army in general, not about PHC's service.
If I believed that I was in error, I would correct that error. However, I don't believe that I've posted anything that warrants an apology of any sort.
The following posts from Toltecgriz were in the same thread:
Posted by Toltecgriz on 07/01/07
Were you there when we had to go find him in the middle of the night because he got lost.? Were you there when we found his high-centered Land Rover that the elephants never touched? Were you there when we loaned him our best tracker and the first thing he did was load the little guy down with a bandolier of 75 .375 cartridges that he had to carry every day? Were you there when they moved him out of his area because his clients had wounded thirteen lions and he wouldn't follow any of them up? Don't get me started.
He was a good storyteller, however.
Posted by Toltecgriz on 07/03/07
I am out of town and have very slow dial-up. I will address this matter when I get back unless I have a lot of time on my hands.
Ray It's clear you could be hit in the face with the truth and still believe what you want. It's not frivolous if what he presented as fact was in fact substantially fiction, insofar as Death in the Long Grass was concerned. Paul Harvey might call it the rest of the story, rather than just calling it gossip because you don't care. Since you weren't there, you should consider keeping your uninformed opinions to yourself.
Hatari I hunted with Luangwa Safaris which was Capstick's first job in Africa. Other PHs around were Tony Sanchez, Joe Joubert and Paul Nielsen.
I have no interest in recounting the whole thing, but may eventually. I'm going to have to look at the book again to refresh my memory of what Capstick said. What got my dander up is someone implying I don't know what I'm talking about when in fact I was in the middle of the events which occurred. Someone else can decide about Capstick's later reputation. I'm just talking about what I know and if someone is interested in the basis for his first book, well, that's what is called background.
It seems to me that Toltecgriz may have had more direct interaction with PHC than anybody else who has posted about him on this site, We all pick an expert whose views are in sync with our own, so I choose Toltecgriz as my expert on the subject of PHC, just like I picked JOC over Warren Page and JB over all of the other current gun writers.
Last edited by 260Remguy; 04/30/21. Reason: Added comment
I'm neither a huge fan of Capstick, nor a detractor of him. But I am pretty amazed at how wound up people can get about someone long dead who probably did more to ignite interest in African hunting (and thereby provide a line of income for all the other PH's, whether they praised, bashed, or said nothing about him) than anyone else in history.
He was a great storyteller, he brought Africa to hundreds of thousands of readers in the USA and around the globe. Thousands of those readers ended up going there on safari, and the millions of dollars generated by the hunting revenues have done immeasurable good for African wildlife.
Words have meaning and the English language is very rich in that regard and I believe that is the issue. For example if one says so and so "claims" something, that connotes a lack of credibility, whereas if one says so and so "said" affords the writer just to "pass the info" vice implying a lack of veracity.....
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Words have meaning and the English language is very rich in that regard and I believe that is the issue. For example if one says so and so "claims" something, that connotes a lack of credibility, whereas if one says so and so "said" affords the writer just to "pass the info" vice implying a lack of veracity.....
I don't doubt that everyone who has posted that they knew PCH, actually knew him, but it seems that they knew him at different times and under different circumstances.
I believe that both Hatari and Toltecgriz knew him, but they knew him at different time and under different circumstances. Tink Nathan claimed to have been a close personal friend of PHC and Hatari posted earlier in this thread that he agreed with everything that Nathan wrote, except for the portion dealing with PHC's military service. You posted that finding PHC's military service record shouldn't be too hard for your friend, but nothing has yet to be posted on this site that would confirm that PHC was a U.S. Army Special Forces officer who saw combat in Vietnam. I have never read anything, anywhere, that PHC had served in the U.S. Army except in the obituary written by Tink Nathan. Why would Nathan make that up if the rest of the obituary is as accurate as Hatari has posted? What would Nathan gain by that embellishment?
From my perspective, Toltecgriz seems to be the person posting on this site who was closest to PHC as it pertains to the accuracy of at least some of PHC's published works.
Let me be perfectly clear, I think that PHC wrote entertaining stories about Africa and I probably believed them before I read contrary posts on this site.
As I have read in multiple posts, Toltecgriz has clearly said that he was present when/where several of PHC's stories took place and that there was little in common between what actually happened and how PHC presented it, for example the high centered vehicle that wasn't actually wrecked by an angry elephant. On 03/31/21 Hatari posted the following earlier in this thread; "He (PHC) made no secret that he embellished stories to jazz them up..". When does an embellishment cross the line and become nothing but an outright lie?.
I don't know any of the people who have posted on this tread, but Pugs vouches for you and Hatari, so that's good enough for me.
EDIT; Someone posting under the name Ward Simonton posted on Africahunting.com that PHC was his father. I don't recall the mention of any children in the Tink Nathan obituary.
Last edited by 260Remguy; 04/30/21. Reason: Added comment
