Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 35 Brown Whelen

At the Tulsa Gun Show I picked up a pre-64 with an after market barrel in 35 Brown Whelen. (It feeds even empty cases without a hitch.) The RCBS dies that go with the rifle indicate that the owner evidently sent cases in to have custom dies made for it. I'm now OK with the purchase, but I was apprehensive soon after purchasing the rifle.

It had B&L bases, which I gave away. I'm going to have Leupold STD bases or maybe Leupold quick release - not sure. There's no metal sights, I will likely have to correct that.

I found data on loaddata.com, which came from an Handloader article. I'm looking for that magazine in my library. The article evidently wasn't written by Ken Waters otherwise it would be in Ken Waters' Pet loads.

Anyone have some "pet loads" they care to share? Thanks.

What's to be "apprehensive" about? If the rifle was in good condition and bore was in good shape and the smith work looks good, I wouldn't be apprehensive at all. Given it was a good deal. I'd also be looking for DD's instead of standard leupolds. Do the rifle a favor and treat it with dignity..

I was apprehensive because the seller said it was a 35 Whelen AI. He had dies and fired brass that went with it. The dies said they were custom made dies, not AI dies. I figured the seller didn't know what he had and I was wondering what it was. I have a 375 AI and those 35 cases he had didn't look like 35 Whelen AI cases. I sort of figured it might be something like a 35 Gibbs. I also wasn't confident that the rifle would feed the ammo correctly. As it turned out all was fine.
I measured the cases when I got home and it is a Brown Whelen.

I had one of those built in 1999, last century, after reading about it in HANDLOADER 187 Jun-Jul 1997:









I used a Douglas No. 3 sporter, 1:12" twist, 22" long, stainless, on a Connecticut M70 Classic Stainless Featherweight.
Donor rifle was a .270 Win in a Tupperware stock.
It did beat my 24"-barreled .35 Whelen Pre-'64 M70 (re-barreled .30-06) by a little bit.
The .35 Whelen used a Douglas No. 4 sporter, 1:12", and original walnut stock.
It was a DRT pig flattener.
The .35 Brown Whelen was eventually rebarreled to .400 Whelen-B+ with a 3.6" magazine box.
A trip to the gunsmith would be required to put that sporty .35 Brown Whelen barrel back onto it.
I won't be using that barrel as rebar in the patio project.

Richard Conrad said:

"... it was designed by one C. Norman Brown. Keith Francis of JGS was kind enough to provide the following historical information.
He says that he first made a reamer for the .35 Brown-Whelen based on a fired case received from rifle maker Keith Stegall in 1967.
Some 18 years later he supplied several sets of reamers in various calibers to a C. Norman Brown of Anchorage, Alaska."

So, in 1985 Mr. Brown bought the reamer again, made from the drawing above by JGS, dated 1985 and 1993.

Mentioned calibers: 7mm, .30, .338, .358 (.35 Brown Whelen), .375, and by the way, John Kronfeld wrote about the .400 Brown-Whelen in
BIG BORE RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, Wolfe Publishing, 1991.

Thanks! That load table has a much better description of the loads than the loaddata table. I see that Richard Conrad used the old school method of measuring pressure "Increase the load until it shows too hot and drop it a grain, calling the load 'maximum'."

The fired cases match the bottom diagram.

That last case, the "350-338 Winchester" must be very close to the 358 Norma Magnum.

picture of my Brown Whelen vs my 375 Whelen AI

The dies that went with it.

Nice.
You should have no problem with your custom dies made to match the fire-formed cases.
Conrad's neck was about 0.300" long on his .35 B-W, and IIRC mine was too.
Fire forming brass can be as simple as using a .357-handgun bullet upside-down,
loaded long enough to headspace with base of the pistol bullet into the rifling.
Use a 158-grain handgun bullet and a usual starting load for the 200-grain .358-caliber rifle bullet.
Nice plinking while forming brass.
New .35 Whelen brass is the easy choice for that.

That is a good increase in capacity. Probably similar to the Gibbs improved 30/06 case.

That old data on the Brown Whelen points out the "every rifle is specific to itself" loading axiom. I have an old custom 35 whelen springfield with 25.5" barrel. Back when I was looking for speed, a 225 Barnes X with 56 grains of AA 2015 behind it went 2752 fps and 56.5 went 2806 fps. Also I think it shows that it is hard to beat the standard 35 whelen when loaded to 60K PSI with any derivate improved chamber by much.
With better powders like CFE 223 and some of the Aliant powders, the old Whelen trots right along with 225 and 250's. I would suspect that these powders would help the Brown Whelen a lot as well.

I have a few 358 caliber molds. I could fire form like Rifle Crank wrote only using cast bullets or size the cases to 375 and the neck back down to a crush fit. When forming cases for the 375 Whelen AI I tried expanding to 416 and then back down for a crush fit and I tried fire forming with bullets pushed into the rifling. They both worked. I lost one case by going to 416 and then back down to 375.

Right now, I've grinded out some of the glass bedding in my new prize and am re-bedding it. I didn't like his bedding job.

If I get 50 fps faster than a standard Whelen I think that may be about it. I don't think I'll be trying to get 200 fps. In fact, top velocity isn't that important to me.

I may likely put a low power scope on it and shoot mostly cast bullets in it at any rate. It's a little heavy, I should weigh it...

It's 8.15 lb with factory sling. No bases, rings or scope. No sights. I guess that's not too heavy.

About 8 pounds bare/dry/empty is a perfect weight for a .35 Brown Whelen OR .35 Whelen OR .358 STA for that matter.

The "Featherweight" .35 Brown Whelen stainless/Tupperware below is 7#14 oz as shown.
The .35 Whelen blued/walnut is about 8.5 lbs as shown.




Forming .35 Brown Whelen brass and .400 Whelen brass from .35 Whelen brass have a lot in common.
Lessons I learned with .35 Brown Whelen were applied to .400 Whelen:

Amen.
250-grainers at 2500 fps with the .35 Whelen is plenty to flatten most things needing it :











Bigger hole in barrel and 3 inches longer barrel: Same weight !



This can happen if you try to hard:

I got mounts for this pre-64 35 Brown Whelen. I took the rifle out yesterday and found out the feed rails had not been modified for the "improved" cartridge. (I have had experience with this issue as I had to modify the rails on a Mauser 375 Whelen AI). Therefore I am planning of finding someone to set the barrel back and re-chamber to 35 Whelen. I will have some Brown Whelen dies for sale when that happens. I happen to have 35 Whelen dies on my shelf.

Sorry to hear of the problems Bugger with the Brown Whelen. I hope you find a good path back to the Standard Whelen. When I read you post today and then went back and read post 1 on the subject, you mentioned the rifle feeding empty cases. Then now with your loaded ammo you have a problem. Sadly in this case but a great reminder that the rifle's test of feeding is with a loaded round of the bullets you want to use at the COL you want to load them. There is no substitute. Even in my old Whelen on a Springfield with a Coned Breech, my beloved 280 grain RN cast bullet, which is Long and Fat, is particular on how it feeds. Too long, the rounds feeding from the left side will hit the sharp edge on the cone where the extractor cut is and hang. Too short the same. Just right COL and slap it fast feeds fine. I have settled for that rather than trying to either smooth the edge of the cone or work on the feed rails. It feeds all jacketed bullets like corn through a goose.
Good luck Sir!

Need some advice folks, I have a Remington Model 721 Rechambered to 35 Brown-Whelen. I am in the process of making cases out of commercial 30-06 brass.
Here's where I'm at I necked the brass up to .375 diameter and then ran the brass thru a 35 Brown-Whelen FL sizing die. My brass feeds fine and the bolt goes closed fine
and ejects fine. When I put a bullet in the case can't close the bolt, tried a round nose bullet and a soft point no difference tried adjusting the seating depth same thing. I measure the brass and it measures 2.48" or more. Should I trim them to 2.350 per the Cartridge Conversion handbook ?

Is the brass you are using necked up 30/06 cases or factory 35 Whelen.

If 30/06 brass the donut formed in the neck might be your problem. When you neck up part of the upper part of the shoulder on the case being necked up forms the bottom or lower part of the neck on the necked up case and the brass in the shoulder is often quite a bit thicker than brass in the neck.

A quick way to test this is seat a bullet well out so the bullet is not inside the donut and see how that chambers.

Good point there Mike.

I have that problem when necking up .338 Lapua Magnum to .375 Tornado.
If I seat a boat tail bullet so as not to have full-diameter bullet intruding on the donut, no problem.
I then fire the case and inside neck ream it, and no problems after that.
Much easier to inside ream than outside turn the neck for my case.

Hopefully Epj3flyer has a short-enough bullet and/or long enough throat to fire-form without getting into the donut.
Simply necking up to .35-cal and using a reversed .35-cal bullet is best.
No need to mess with the soft, little, rounded shoulder created by necking up to .375 then down to .358,
which is ineffectual for fire-forming, and unnecessarily working the brass.
Headspace on the bullet, jammed into the rifling.
Anneal before fire-forming and use new brass for the first go, with either .30-06 or .35 Whelen brass.

Conrad's article mentioned the aberration in John J. Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions.
That is not the first time Donnelly has been found to be aberrant !
For the ".35 Brown/Whelen" as he labels it, Donnelly shows a neck length of only 0.235", and a brass length of 2.385", therefore a bolt face to Neck-1 of 2.150".
That does not jive with the JGS reamer (2.1764") or the cartridge drawing in Conrad's article (2.130") for bolt face to Neck-1.
Conrad's cartridge drawing shows brass length of 2.450".
The JGS reamer shows chamber length of 2.500", a generous 0.050" longer, more than needed for brass stretching on firing of a 2.450" case.
All I can say is the Redding dies I had worked with the JGS reamer.
I found 3 pieces of my fire-formed brass made from R-P .35 Whelen.
Case necks are right at 0.300" long, and case length is 2.430".
That is expected shortening from a 2.494" .35 Whelen when it blows out the shoulder to .35 Brown Whelen.

I have a second .400 Whelen chambered with the G&H reamer specs established by Michael Petrov,
done by re-barreling a Ruger Hawkeye factory .35 Whelen donor rifle.
I might have to have the .35 Brown Whelen barrel put back on the M70 .400 Whelen-B.
I never did much shooting with it 20 years ago.
It deserves some more.

If I do, I will need more brass.
I will use R-P .35 Whelen brass and headspace on the bullet rammed into the rifling.
Easy. No dramas. Perfect, sharp shoulder ready for full loads after that first firing.
No inside neck reaming nor outside neck turning (ugh!) needed.

Now I am going to have to dig through my boxes of potential rebar for the patio project.
I may have gotten mixed up on the barrel contour of that .35 Brown Whelen Douglas barrel,
called it No. 3 in one place above, No. 4 in another.
No. 3 on the stainless Douglas M70 .35 Brown Whelen
No. 4 on the chromoly Douglas M70 .35 Whelen
No. 4 on the stainless Shilen M70 .400 Whelen-B
No. 5 on the chromoly Shilen Hawkeye .400 Whelen

That is the story I am sticking to until I rescue the .35 BW barrel from the rebar box to verify.
I will also keep my brass trimmed to 2.430" to play it safe in my .35 BW, neck length 0.300".

Morning Gents, here's where I'm at this morning. Tried a 358 cal rifle bullet in the brass I expanded to 375 and FL sized in the 35 BW dies seated it above the doughnut messed with that a bit didn't seem to make a difference. I then ran some 30/06 brass thru the 35 BW FL die and tried the backwards 38 cal handgun bullet couldn't get it to work. I have some Remington 200 gr Core Locks and started seating them little by little. Got them seated approximately 1/16th below the cannelure and they are tight to chamber and will eject fine. FYI I am using CH4D Mfg dies. I borescoped this thing last night and it appears the throat in it is somewhat short. Does the fact I can use a rifle bullet in this confirm that fact? Any advice would be most welcome. I've been reloading since the late 70's but this is my first wildcat Cartridge.

The first round feeds great. But put in more rounds and they don't want to come out of the magazine. even an empty will feed great if it's the first round.

If the chamber is cut to Brown Whelen spec's, you might have too long of case for the chamber. The Brown Whelen's case spec is shorter than the 35 Whelen.

I ran one of the fired Brown Whelen cases through a 35 Whelen sizing die. The Brown Whelen case was the correct length before running it through the die. After it was sized, the length of the case was correct for the 35 Whelen - it was longer than the case before it was sized.

If someone would want to alter the pre-64 magazine so that it feeds correctly, they could get this rifle from me. I won't do that to a pre-64 action. Cash or a standard Whelen in trade would work (I like pre-64's, Mausers and I like 700's). This rifle is in good shape other than the magazine feeding issues. One other thing: the floorplate - the bottom metal on this rifle comes from a feather weight rifle - i.e. aluminum. Otherwise, I will be taking it to a smith next Wednesday to have the barrel set back and re-chambered.

Have you established how long the brass can be in your chamber ?
When I neck up a .30-06 case to accept .358-caliber bullet it shortens from 2.490" to 2.460".
My chamber of known JGS reamer has a length of 2.500", can handle up to 2.490" brass length, trim to 2.480" advisable for me,
if my brass ever grew to that length.
Maybe mine will be longer if blown out with the bullet-headspacing. Might even make the supposed spec of 2.450" !

I realized my previous 2.430" length production of .35 BW with R-P .35 Whelen brass was done by necking up and necking down, then Cream O' Wheat, soap plug and pistol powder.
Over 20 years later, having found that unsatisfactory in the .400 Whelen, I shall headspace on the bullet and get nice sharp shoulders with first go.

I dug out my old barrel and throat gauge dummies, will get them up in the image gallery.

When you neck up a new, unfired .30-06 case to accept a .358-caliber bullet,
you have produced a new, unfired .35 Whelen case that is about 0.030" shorter than the factory brass.
That is a good thing for fire-forming .35 Brown Whelen brass, which will shorten it even more.

20 years ago I gave up too soon on the .35 Brown Whelen because the brass was a pain in the brass to make.
I was green as a wildcat feeder.
No more.
This kitty will be easy to feed now that I know how to do it.

I might have some chamber rings near the shoulder of my .35 Brown Whelen.
Or are they an artifact of neck up and necking down and blowing the shoulder forward without annealing ?
A polishing of the chamber will be requested when the prodigal .35 Brown Whelen barrel returns to an M70 Classic.

Hey, the 9.3x62mm Mauser also has a 35-degree shoulder angle, same as the .35 Brown Whelen.

I very much appreciate the information so far. I would like to digress for a moment, when I bought the rifle it was pictured with a set of RCBS dies Marked 350 Brown. The dies never made it for whatever reason. The rifle is Marked 35 Brown-Whelen on the barrel so that's the dies I ordered from CH4D. So far I have done the following, sorry if this is long. 1. Did the expanding to 375 then the 35 BW die it does chamber on the doughnut verified by using black sharpie to color the doughnut and it has a ring all the way around. 2. Just sized 2 brass in the 35 BW die only and tried the backwards 38 cal bullet will only close the bolt with bullet seated barely below the case mouth. Tried one with a 200 gr Remington Soft point Corelockt bullet and the bolt will close with the bullet seated 1/32 below the cannulure. Considering doing a chamber cast to check for sure. I have another Wildcat I have to cast anyway. Thoughts ?

Maybe you need to do a chamber cast, looking for short chamber length,
but first you might try this:
Simply neck up some .30-06 brass to only .35-caliber.
2.490"-length brass will shorten to 2.460".
Do 10 cases like that.
Trim each case sequentially shorter by 0.010": 2.460", 2.450", 2.440", etc.
Seat a flat-based cast or jacketed bullet in reverse so full-diameter base of bullet is flush with the case mouth, for sequentially shorter COLs same as brass length.
If there is any radius or bevel on the base of the bullet, that short length of subcaliber portion of bullet base may be allowed to project forward of the case mouth.
See if such a "throat-gauge dummy" chambers easily at shorter length brass.
Without a bullet in the neck, the brass may flex inward and be misleading.
It will be more sensitive as a gauge with bullet seated flush and brass trimmed, squared and uniformed, do not chamfer, just de-burr.
Or do the chamber cast.

Now I am thinking of throating my .35 Brown Whelen with a scaled-down .458 Winchester Magnum throat, more like the throat on the 9.3x62mm Mauser.

Loading the 310 Woodleigh at max magazine length would be a great thing would it not? Lowering the start pressure with a magic .458WM throat would not hurt anything either.

Fury01,
I have not given up on the .35 Brown Whelen, again.
It is number three for a stay at the spa for wayward rifles, two are already vacationing there.
This could be a chance for a one-piece reamer with a leade-only throat having an angle of 0*29'30",
like a scaled-down SAAMI .458 WinMag throat, but otherwise same as the original JGS reamer.
Just being able to use long bullets at even 3.4" COL would be nice.
A new barrel for a Hawkeye Ruger or FN-M70 Winchester would make it go whole hog,
No. 4 sporter instead of No. 3, same 1:12" twist.

I had the barrel re-chambered to 35 Whelen on my rifle. I had no ill feelings with the Brown Whelen, but I didn't want to alter the rails/feeding.
I probably won't be building a Brown Whelen. If someone wants a set of dies, let me know. Shipping should be less than $10. If interested how's $40 personal check, shipped sound?

PM to Bugger

Bugger,
My advice to you is to treat you new 35 Whelen just like it was a wildcat chamber, which it is sort of, and fireform your brass using the same sort of process you were advised on the 35 BW. New 35 Whelen Brass is notorious for being small and you want good tight fitting brass to get the most out of the rifle. If your starting with 30-06 brass which I do most of the time or starting over with the 35 BW brass, getting it to a good tight fit is where you want to be for your 60K PSI loadings. You know all this I am sure so Happy Loading and shooting!

The chamber is minimum/tight. If I full length re-size with the RCBS FL sizing die, the case is a snug fit in the chamber. I may, gasp, buy some factory loads to see how factory loads work. It is a difficult process, that is pulling the billfold out for the purpose of buying factory ammo! But if my kids get this rifle some day, I'd like to be assured that factory ammo works too.

The Brown Whelen dies are sold BTW

Well then sir you are in good shape. Tight chamber and a die that fits it! Carry on.

OK. Cheerio.
Bugger is sending his dies to me, so I will get to see if they work with the JGS 35 Bown Whelen reamered chamber,
and then a copy of that reamer with the long-leade, Winchester Magnum throat, scaled from .458 to .358.
The latter will be called the .358 Winchester Brown Whelen.
.358 WBW

Something in the back of my mind makes me seem to remember that the 35 Brown Whelen uses the 280 Rem case as the base case. The 280 Rem's shoulder is further up the neck ( shorter neck). It has a different headspace than the 30-06 /270 Win ( which I believe have the same headspacing).

You may want to try some 280 Rem brass in forming your next batch of 35 Brown Whelen cases. Maybe that will help.

here's a photo of a 280 AI and a 35 Brown Whelen side by side

I just found a couple boxes of 35 Brown Whelen ammo and empties I got with the rifle. I'm running the cases through 35 Whelen dies and I see an advantage of a Brown Whelen over the 35 Whelen. It's in the case neck.
I had noticed earlier when shooting the Whelen made from 30-06 cases that there was a donut at the base of the neck on some of the cases, but not all. There wasn't a donut with the Brown Whelen cases made from 30-06 - due to the shoulder being further forward..
What I'm doing with all the 35 Whelen brass that I'm forming and now the 35 B W I'm resizing. Is loading them with some 38 Special bullets that I'd never use -- they are 125 grain hollow points. These bullets won't be set in so deep as to touch the donut. After firing these loads, I'll be running the cases into my inside trimmer, which will eliminate the donut.
It's sort of a paint. If I had to do it all over, I'd just buy 35 Whelen brass. I have now actually bought 50 ea. Nosler 35 Whelen brass, which I'll be using on jacketed bullet loads. These cases formed from 30-06 and 35 BW will be reserved for cast bullet loads.

That donut if ignored will cause the load to go "high pressure" if fired in a tight chamber - maybe most chambers - I don't know. This Whelen has a tight chamber.

Now that sounds like a good way to go.
Seems funny to me that the shoulder being moved forward , they short necked and short throated it. ?
Maybe they were trying to velocifial light weight 35 cal bullets.
Would be interesting to see what a full length case and a GREAT 458 Winchester Magnum style throat , would accomplish with a 280 gr Swift A Frame or 310 gr Woodliegh.

Bugger;
Does your rifle feed the 35 Whelen loaded ammo satisfactorily ?

It feeds Hornady Interlock 200 grain and 250 grain spitzer reliably. I will need to work on the left rail to get it to feed the blunt cast bullets that I use. (I don't know if I'll do that.) I'm planning on loading some round nose bullets to see if it will feed those OK. When the rifle was still a Brown Whelen the cartridge wouldn't even feed out of the magazine!

The problem now is the case is pushed to far to the right on the cartridges coming out of the magazine on the left side. This pushing the cartridge this way was the same problem I had with the 375 Whelen AI Mauser 98 I have. I had to modify the rails on the Mauser and now that feeds even empty cases (375 Whelen and 375 Whelen AI) with out a hitch.

I wonder what cartridge this 70 used originally (perhaps a shorter cartridge??) - I thought that it aught to feed all 35 Whelen loads without the need for spitzer bullets reliably.

I'm hoping for an elk cow license this fall, if I get one, I may be using this 35. I will be using it on a deer license this fall - I was hoping to do the deer in with cast bullets...

I have a soft spot, for bigger heavy bullets.

"Bugger;
Does your rifle feed the 35 Whelen loaded ammo satisfactorily ?"

Without any modification to the feed rails/ramp the rifle feeds all round nose bullets fine, even light 38 Special 125 grain bullets. I'm not sure why I had that problem I reported earlier, after it was re-chambered.

But only if they're "soft" points, right?

I could tell you what a 286 NP and a 320 Woodleigh can make from my 22.4" SAKO barrel in 9.3 x 62, but I'd have to publish it as does my friend for his various .35s as "experimental loads"! But truly, a standard 9.3 x 62 is the way to go if you want "improved" results from a cartridge similar to the .35 Whelen. Everything, including the Whelen, is dependant on the usual factors: COL, barrel length, cases and PSI. It's no problem for my 9.3 x 62 to "make" well over 2400 fps from the 320gr Woodleigh using RL-17, not at CIP standards but at a longer COL and higher (but safe) PSI. (And I've owned a couple of .35 Whelens)

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

My Springfield with a cone breech is particular about feeding cast 280 Lyman rn bullets from the left side. I worked around that by varying col and found a sweet spot. Working the bolt faster helps too. The big nose on that bullet hits the ramp early and that is why it moves right. I resisted the urge to fiddle with it and found a way around.

Browsing on my Sierra loading app today and it shows 2900 fps with their 225 grain bullet. 79 gr of cfe 223 or 71.6 power pro 2000.
I thought my old load at 2800 was smokin.
Sierra made an excellent point that brass capacity varies widely in the Whelen and I concur. I also believe that chambers vary widely though I only have one. Lots of reamers out there.
But the myth that the Whelen is a range limited round was never true but with modern bullets and powders it is certainly not true.

Yep. Look at the down range numbers with top loads and spitzer bullets of 225-250 grs. I especially like the 225 Accubond.

70 grains of cfe223 not 79. Big fingers. Little keys.

That is a stout load with a 400 grainer.
I get 2260 out of my Remington 700.
I do have to shave the necks a little.

TAg

I acquired a 35 Whelen improved in 2020. I discovered that the barrel hadn’t been set back during the improving. I ordered a Manson 35 Whelen Improved reamer. I then necked up a 280Ackley case to 35 caliber. I filled the case full of lead for a go guage. My friend then took the rifle and reamed out the chamber to the “35-280 Ackley “ or it can be called a skinny 35 Brown Whelen. My 35 Whelen improved dies are set for the 35-280 Ackley, and the rifle shoots great.

25+ years ago I had Randall Redman rebore a pre'64 Winchester M/70 .30-06 to .35 Whelen. After I got the rifle back from Redman I did exhaustive range testing and found that the bullet my rifle liked best was a Sierra Game King 225gr. over IMR 4064. This was my whitetail load for years until shoulder surgery prompted me to go to a lighter bullet. A search of Ken Waters Pet Loads found one of Waters most accurate loads was a Hornady Inter-lok 200gr. RN over IMR 3031. My rifle was super accurate with that load 100yd. 3 shot groups were tight cloverleafs and the load performed admirably on whitetails. The one bullet that I was able to recover was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of its original weight. I never used a bullet heavier than 225gr. as I didn't feel it necessary for whitetails the majority of which were taken at ranges of 100yds. or less.