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At the Tulsa Gun Show I picked up a pre-64 with an after market barrel in 35 Brown Whelen. (It feeds even empty cases without a hitch.) The RCBS dies that go with the rifle indicate that the owner evidently sent cases in to have custom dies made for it. I'm now OK with the purchase, but I was apprehensive soon after purchasing the rifle.

It had B&L bases, which I gave away. I'm going to have Leupold STD bases or maybe Leupold quick release - not sure. There's no metal sights, I will likely have to correct that.

I found data on loaddata.com, which came from an Handloader article. I'm looking for that magazine in my library. The article evidently wasn't written by Ken Waters otherwise it would be in Ken Waters' Pet loads.

Anyone have some "pet loads" they care to share? Thanks.


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What's to be "apprehensive" about? If the rifle was in good condition and bore was in good shape and the smith work looks good, I wouldn't be apprehensive at all. Given it was a good deal. I'd also be looking for DD's instead of standard leupolds. Do the rifle a favor and treat it with dignity..


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I was apprehensive because the seller said it was a 35 Whelen AI. He had dies and fired brass that went with it. The dies said they were custom made dies, not AI dies. I figured the seller didn't know what he had and I was wondering what it was. I have a 375 AI and those 35 cases he had didn't look like 35 Whelen AI cases. I sort of figured it might be something like a 35 Gibbs. I also wasn't confident that the rifle would feed the ammo correctly. As it turned out all was fine.
I measured the cases when I got home and it is a Brown Whelen.


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I had one of those built in 1999, last century, after reading about it in HANDLOADER 187 Jun-Jul 1997:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I used a Douglas No. 3 sporter, 1:12" twist, 22" long, stainless, on a Connecticut M70 Classic Stainless Featherweight.
Donor rifle was a .270 Win in a Tupperware stock.
It did beat my 24"-barreled .35 Whelen Pre-'64 M70 (re-barreled .30-06) by a little bit.
The .35 Whelen used a Douglas No. 4 sporter, 1:12", and original walnut stock.
It was a DRT pig flattener.
The .35 Brown Whelen was eventually rebarreled to .400 Whelen-B+ with a 3.6" magazine box.
A trip to the gunsmith would be required to put that sporty .35 Brown Whelen barrel back onto it.
I won't be using that barrel as rebar in the patio project.

Richard Conrad said:

"... it was designed by one C. Norman Brown. Keith Francis of JGS was kind enough to provide the following historical information.
He says that he first made a reamer for the .35 Brown-Whelen based on a fired case received from rifle maker Keith Stegall in 1967.
Some 18 years later he supplied several sets of reamers in various calibers to a C. Norman Brown of Anchorage, Alaska."

So, in 1985 Mr. Brown bought the reamer again, made from the drawing above by JGS, dated 1985 and 1993.

Mentioned calibers: 7mm, .30, .338, .358 (.35 Brown Whelen), .375, and by the way, John Kronfeld wrote about the .400 Brown-Whelen in
BIG BORE RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, Wolfe Publishing, 1991.


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Thanks! That load table has a much better description of the loads than the loaddata table. I see that Richard Conrad used the old school method of measuring pressure "Increase the load until it shows too hot and drop it a grain, calling the load 'maximum'."

The fired cases match the bottom diagram.

That last case, the "350-338 Winchester" must be very close to the 358 Norma Magnum.

Last edited by Bugger; 04/14/21.

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picture of my Brown Whelen vs my 375 Whelen AI
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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The dies that went with it.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Nice.
You should have no problem with your custom dies made to match the fire-formed cases.
Conrad's neck was about 0.300" long on his .35 B-W, and IIRC mine was too.
Fire forming brass can be as simple as using a .357-handgun bullet upside-down,
loaded long enough to headspace with base of the pistol bullet into the rifling.
Use a 158-grain handgun bullet and a usual starting load for the 200-grain .358-caliber rifle bullet.
Nice plinking while forming brass.
New .35 Whelen brass is the easy choice for that.


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Originally Posted by Bugger
picture of my Brown Whelen vs my 375 Whelen AI
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



That is a good increase in capacity. Probably similar to the Gibbs improved 30/06 case.

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That old data on the Brown Whelen points out the "every rifle is specific to itself" loading axiom. I have an old custom 35 whelen springfield with 25.5" barrel. Back when I was looking for speed, a 225 Barnes X with 56 grains of AA 2015 behind it went 2752 fps and 56.5 went 2806 fps. Also I think it shows that it is hard to beat the standard 35 whelen when loaded to 60K PSI with any derivate improved chamber by much.
With better powders like CFE 223 and some of the Aliant powders, the old Whelen trots right along with 225 and 250's. I would suspect that these powders would help the Brown Whelen a lot as well.

Last edited by Fury01; 04/16/21.
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I have a few 358 caliber molds. I could fire form like Rifle Crank wrote only using cast bullets or size the cases to 375 and the neck back down to a crush fit. When forming cases for the 375 Whelen AI I tried expanding to 416 and then back down for a crush fit and I tried fire forming with bullets pushed into the rifling. They both worked. I lost one case by going to 416 and then back down to 375.

Right now, I've grinded out some of the glass bedding in my new prize and am re-bedding it. I didn't like his bedding job.

If I get 50 fps faster than a standard Whelen I think that may be about it. I don't think I'll be trying to get 200 fps. In fact, top velocity isn't that important to me.

I may likely put a low power scope on it and shoot mostly cast bullets in it at any rate. It's a little heavy, I should weigh it...


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It's 8.15 lb with factory sling. No bases, rings or scope. No sights. I guess that's not too heavy.


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About 8 pounds bare/dry/empty is a perfect weight for a .35 Brown Whelen OR .35 Whelen OR .358 STA for that matter.

The "Featherweight" .35 Brown Whelen stainless/Tupperware below is 7#14 oz as shown.
The .35 Whelen blued/walnut is about 8.5 lbs as shown.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Forming .35 Brown Whelen brass and .400 Whelen brass from .35 Whelen brass have a lot in common.
Lessons I learned with .35 Brown Whelen were applied to .400 Whelen:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Fury01
That old data on the Brown Whelen points out the "every rifle is specific to itself" loading axiom. I have an old custom 35 whelen springfield with 25.5" barrel. Back when I was looking for speed, a 225 Barnes X with 56 grains of AA 2015 behind it went 2752 fps and 56.5 went 2806 fps. Also I think it shows that it is hard to beat the standard 35 whelen when loaded to 60K PSI with any derivate improved chamber by much.
With better powders like CFE 223 and some of the Aliant powders, the old Whelen trots right along with 225 and 250's. I would suspect that these powders would help the Brown Whelen a lot as well.

Amen.
250-grainers at 2500 fps with the .35 Whelen is plenty to flatten most things needing it :

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Bigger hole in barrel and 3 inches longer barrel: Same weight !

[Linked Image]

This can happen if you try to hard:

[Linked Image]


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I got mounts for this pre-64 35 Brown Whelen. I took the rifle out yesterday and found out the feed rails had not been modified for the "improved" cartridge. (I have had experience with this issue as I had to modify the rails on a Mauser 375 Whelen AI). Therefore I am planning of finding someone to set the barrel back and re-chamber to 35 Whelen. I will have some Brown Whelen dies for sale when that happens. I happen to have 35 Whelen dies on my shelf.

Last edited by Bugger; 04/18/21.

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Sorry to hear of the problems Bugger with the Brown Whelen. I hope you find a good path back to the Standard Whelen. When I read you post today and then went back and read post 1 on the subject, you mentioned the rifle feeding empty cases. Then now with your loaded ammo you have a problem. Sadly in this case but a great reminder that the rifle's test of feeding is with a loaded round of the bullets you want to use at the COL you want to load them. There is no substitute. Even in my old Whelen on a Springfield with a Coned Breech, my beloved 280 grain RN cast bullet, which is Long and Fat, is particular on how it feeds. Too long, the rounds feeding from the left side will hit the sharp edge on the cone where the extractor cut is and hang. Too short the same. Just right COL and slap it fast feeds fine. I have settled for that rather than trying to either smooth the edge of the cone or work on the feed rails. It feeds all jacketed bullets like corn through a goose.
Good luck Sir!

Last edited by Fury01; 04/19/21.
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Need some advice folks, I have a Remington Model 721 Rechambered to 35 Brown-Whelen. I am in the process of making cases out of commercial 30-06 brass.
Here's where I'm at I necked the brass up to .375 diameter and then ran the brass thru a 35 Brown-Whelen FL sizing die. My brass feeds fine and the bolt goes closed fine
and ejects fine. When I put a bullet in the case can't close the bolt, tried a round nose bullet and a soft point no difference tried adjusting the seating depth same thing. I measure the brass and it measures 2.48" or more. Should I trim them to 2.350 per the Cartridge Conversion handbook ?

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Is the brass you are using necked up 30/06 cases or factory 35 Whelen.

If 30/06 brass the donut formed in the neck might be your problem. When you neck up part of the upper part of the shoulder on the case being necked up forms the bottom or lower part of the neck on the necked up case and the brass in the shoulder is often quite a bit thicker than brass in the neck.

A quick way to test this is seat a bullet well out so the bullet is not inside the donut and see how that chambers.

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Good point there Mike.

I have that problem when necking up .338 Lapua Magnum to .375 Tornado.
If I seat a boat tail bullet so as not to have full-diameter bullet intruding on the donut, no problem.
I then fire the case and inside neck ream it, and no problems after that.
Much easier to inside ream than outside turn the neck for my case.

Hopefully Epj3flyer has a short-enough bullet and/or long enough throat to fire-form without getting into the donut.
Simply necking up to .35-cal and using a reversed .35-cal bullet is best.
No need to mess with the soft, little, rounded shoulder created by necking up to .375 then down to .358,
which is ineffectual for fire-forming, and unnecessarily working the brass.
Headspace on the bullet, jammed into the rifling.
Anneal before fire-forming and use new brass for the first go, with either .30-06 or .35 Whelen brass.

Conrad's article mentioned the aberration in John J. Donnelly's book on cartridge conversions.
That is not the first time Donnelly has been found to be aberrant !
For the ".35 Brown/Whelen" as he labels it, Donnelly shows a neck length of only 0.235", and a brass length of 2.385", therefore a bolt face to Neck-1 of 2.150".
That does not jive with the JGS reamer (2.1764") or the cartridge drawing in Conrad's article (2.130") for bolt face to Neck-1.
Conrad's cartridge drawing shows brass length of 2.450".
The JGS reamer shows chamber length of 2.500", a generous 0.050" longer, more than needed for brass stretching on firing of a 2.450" case.
All I can say is the Redding dies I had worked with the JGS reamer.
I found 3 pieces of my fire-formed brass made from R-P .35 Whelen.
Case necks are right at 0.300" long, and case length is 2.430".
That is expected shortening from a 2.494" .35 Whelen when it blows out the shoulder to .35 Brown Whelen.

I have a second .400 Whelen chambered with the G&H reamer specs established by Michael Petrov,
done by re-barreling a Ruger Hawkeye factory .35 Whelen donor rifle.
I might have to have the .35 Brown Whelen barrel put back on the M70 .400 Whelen-B.
I never did much shooting with it 20 years ago.
It deserves some more.

If I do, I will need more brass.
I will use R-P .35 Whelen brass and headspace on the bullet rammed into the rifling.
Easy. No dramas. Perfect, sharp shoulder ready for full loads after that first firing.
No inside neck reaming nor outside neck turning (ugh!) needed.

Now I am going to have to dig through my boxes of potential rebar for the patio project.
I may have gotten mixed up on the barrel contour of that .35 Brown Whelen Douglas barrel,
called it No. 3 in one place above, No. 4 in another.
No. 3 on the stainless Douglas M70 .35 Brown Whelen
No. 4 on the chromoly Douglas M70 .35 Whelen
No. 4 on the stainless Shilen M70 .400 Whelen-B
No. 5 on the chromoly Shilen Hawkeye .400 Whelen

That is the story I am sticking to until I rescue the .35 BW barrel from the rebar box to verify.
I will also keep my brass trimmed to 2.430" to play it safe in my .35 BW, neck length 0.300".


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Morning Gents, here's where I'm at this morning. Tried a 358 cal rifle bullet in the brass I expanded to 375 and FL sized in the 35 BW dies seated it above the doughnut messed with that a bit didn't seem to make a difference. I then ran some 30/06 brass thru the 35 BW FL die and tried the backwards 38 cal handgun bullet couldn't get it to work. I have some Remington 200 gr Core Locks and started seating them little by little. Got them seated approximately 1/16th below the cannelure and they are tight to chamber and will eject fine. FYI I am using CH4D Mfg dies. I borescoped this thing last night and it appears the throat in it is somewhat short. Does the fact I can use a rifle bullet in this confirm that fact? Any advice would be most welcome. I've been reloading since the late 70's but this is my first wildcat Cartridge.

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