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50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle #16019722 04/22/21
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Riflecrank Offline OP
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From gunner500:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

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[Linked Image]

I suspect the Sharpie-marked primer signifies 1 round out of 100 that is not perfect and is to be utilized as a fouler ?

The rifle has a 1:30" twist.
The 530-gr bullet is 0.512" in diameter and is 1.130" in length.
Accuracy testing will be very interesting.
Much more to come, I am sure.


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16020049 04/22/21
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gunner500 Offline
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Many thanks Sir Ron, full disclosure on the rifle, many years ago a friend of Saint Bagwell and i gave me an 18 twist Shiloh standard weight barrel chambered in 45-70, i looked for an action to build a '74 Sharps on for hunting, but, after seeing Goldie Pedersoli, i was also looking for a Ruger #1 action to screw it too, but alas, it never came to pass.

About a month ago my dim bulb lit up a bit, i sent the barrel to JES for a .512" bore 30 twist chambered in 50-70 Govt, yesterday morning early i took the rifle and barrel to Steve Baldwins place up in Jones Ok, he installed the barrel for me, i now have a switch barrel set for the 45 and 50 Government on one rifle using the same forearm and mounting hardware, each barrel has it's on lever return spring and extractor, what a fun deal this will be.

LOL on the Sharpie point primer, look close down in the case in the photo, see the King of Clubs playing card wad? guess what will be saved and be in the chamber come game day?............i think it kind of fits.

I cast these bullets relatively hard at a guesstimated 12 to 1 alloy, i've heard stories of the 50's not penetrating, hence my first foray into the 50 was 22 twist and 750 grains, they penetrate like a freight train loaded with pig iron, so as 50 cal bullet weight gets lighter i tread lighter, i want this little bullet to hold it's shape and penetrate for all it's worth, even if i run it into the side of a Buffalo someday. cool

Speaking of 50-70-530 Supersonic........is this a pretty good representative load for the 50-70? i have never studied other weights and velocities, just knew up front i wanted at least 1200 fps with this bullet to give it a solid chance to overcome the resistance of it's diameter and plow on through.

Thanks again Sir Ron.


Trump Won!
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16020120 04/22/21
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Earlyagain Offline
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I've seen a Hawken trapdoor conversion in a museum. Very interesting time period.

Do you guys know if the Remington rolling block handguns used downloaded ammo? I've seen those in museums also.

Nice looking rifle.

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: gunner500] #16020954 04/23/21
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Originally Posted by gunner500
Many thanks Sir Ron, full disclosure on the rifle, many years ago a friend of Saint Bagwell and i gave me an 18 twist Shiloh standard weight barrel chambered in 45-70, i looked for an action to build a '74 Sharps on for hunting, but, after seeing Goldie Pedersoli, i was also looking for a Ruger #1 action to screw it too, but alas, it never came to pass.

About a month ago my dim bulb lit up a bit, i sent the barrel to JES for a .512" bore 30 twist chambered in 50-70 Govt, yesterday morning early i took the rifle and barrel to Steve Baldwins place up in Jones Ok, he installed the barrel for me, i now have a switch barrel set for the 45 and 50 Government on one rifle using the same forearm and mounting hardware, each barrel has it's on lever return spring and extractor, what a fun deal this will be.

LOL on the Sharpie point primer, look close down in the case in the photo, see the King of Clubs playing card wad? guess what will be saved and be in the chamber come game day?............i think it kind of fits.

I cast these bullets relatively hard at a guesstimated 12 to 1 alloy, i've heard stories of the 50's not penetrating , hence my first foray into the 50 was 22 twist and 750 grains, they penetrate like a freight train loaded with pig iron, so as 50 cal bullet weight gets lighter i tread lighter, i want this little bullet to hold it's shape and penetrate for all it's worth, even if i run it into the side of a Buffalo someday. cool

Speaking of 50-70-530 Supersonic........is this a pretty good representative load for the 50-70? i have never studied other weights and velocities, just knew up front i wanted at least 1200 fps with this bullet to give it a solid chance to overcome the resistance of it's diameter and plow on through.

Thanks again Sir Ron.


Wonder if the story teller is still frowning ? grin


You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16021287 04/23/21
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Am surprised you could compressed that load .650 without bulging the case or something!

IC-A

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Earlyagain] #16021559 04/23/21
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gunner500 Offline
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Early, Thanks, have never seen the rifles you speak of, and dang sure wouldn't want a full bore load of 50-70 in a handgun, bet they loaded it down quite a bit.

LOL, Woodrow, yes, bet he's up there flicking booglins down at me ; ]

Caplock, i did use a drop tube for the powder, also cut some 10 thou playing card wads to save 20 thou less compression using a standard 30 thou fiber wad, i had this mold sold to a guy with a 50-70, he may have thought about too much compression too, or he had a 36 twist rifle, this bullet may be a bit too long for 36, the loaded rounds KA-PLUNK right into the chamber with a bounce when dropped in muzzle down, all round fired so far have been no wiping or blow tubing.

This will be an easy load for hunting, have found over the years a good amount of compression will really spool up the powder pressuring it up for some clean burning,, gotta have that for a hunting load.


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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16021633 04/23/21
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More good news from gunner500:

"... one shot on a strip of tape at 25 to center, that was easy ..."

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

"One at 100 shot off left knee, seated with back against bench, 6 o'clock hold, no time to file front sight to have bullets landing 5-6 inches high, rain on the way."

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"No lead on extra tight steel wool patch, hard bullets are bumping up and sealing just fine."

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"Couple cope spit patches followed by olive oil patch and she's shining like a new nickel, range tooled a couple sticks of brass, gtg,
this is going to be some easy fun, 70gr holy black through a 50 bore is very mild report, now 100Gr swiss fg through my 40-90 sbn is an entirely different story!"

[Linked Image]

Jolly good fun.

Original ballistics (.50-450-70) for the Trapdoor .50-70 Govt rifle with about 3 feet of barrel: 450-grain, grease-grooved bullet at 1240 fps, .515" groove diam., 3-groove, 1:42" twist, soft lead.
Gunner500's 530-grainer at 1250 fps from a 30" barrel is a darn sight superior on all counts.
They did have .50-450-55 loads for cadet rifles and carbines, 29-5/8" of bore would be a carbine.
There were also some .50-400-45 loads with shorter chambers and brass for Navy carbines and Rolling Block pistols, IIRC.


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16021730 04/23/21
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Thanks Sir Ron, you can see by the lead splat at 100 i was holding 6 o'clock on the bottom right hand corner of the gong, massive East wind blew the splat lines West across the face of the gong, wanted to see how much the wind would move that bullet at 100, i think the movement was all me and my wobbly knee, not the wind, fun little rifle, i cant wait to bash a big pig or deer with that 530gr bullet up close.

Thanks for the ballistics lesson too, i'll gladly take 80 more momentum bullet weight grains at the same velocity, all about boring a hole to exit. cool



Trump Won!
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16026884 04/25/21
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Absolutely, the 80 extra grains of momentum at 1250 fps for the 530-grainer is quite the Quantum of Solace for the bizon hunter.
That will shake your martini instead of stirring it.
That bullet is licensed to kill.
Enough of the James Bond jokes.

I have a short and squat 535-grainer I could get to work with BP in a .510"-grooved 1:24" twist Rolling Block with gunner500's recipe.
.50-70 rifles, I have 4 shooters to try various bullets:

1. U.S. Springfield 1866 Trapdoor: Marked "1864" on the lock plate from percussion conversion by "second Allin alteration," marked "1866" on breechblock.
About 29" barrel bore, about 32" including breechblock.
Lined barrel, .515"-groove, .500" bore, 3-grooved, 1:42" twist.
It must be a carbine or cadet rifle being that short.
8 lbs 9 oz including brass tacks and human hair wind gauge.
I do not think the Bubba that decorated it with brass tacks bobbed the barrel. Crown and front sight look unmolested.
A master gunsmith overhauled, cleanedand lubed it and repaired a crack in the stock with epoxy and brass pins,
before I tied it to a tire and pulled the trigger with a string. 450-ish-grainer and 70 grains of FFg GOEX was proof enough for me.

[Linked Image]

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2. McNelly Carbine replica (Cimarron/Chiappa/A.C. Armisport) of Sharps 1859 percussion converted to centerfire a la Texas Rangers.
22" barrel, 1:18" twist, .512" groove, 6-groove, .504" bore, 8 lbs 0 oz.

[Linked Image]

3. 1874 Sharps replica "Long Range Target Rifle" (Pedersoli)
34" barrel, 1:26" twist, .512" groove, 6-groove, .504" bore, 11 lbs 12 oz.

4. Remington Rolling Block replica "Buffalo Model No. 2" (Pedersoli) re-barreled with Oregon Barrel Company tapered octagon and custom sights
28" barrel, 1:24" twist, .510" groove, 6-groove, .498" bore, 9 lbs 13 oz.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16026897 04/25/21
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Light and short bullets for slow twist and loose groove, 3 at top,
heavier and longer in various degrees follow:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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The Rolling Block has been throated to allow the 680-grain Hoch bullet to be seated as shown on right above.
Smokeless (H322 or H4198 with a little filler) gets it up to 1300 fps for stability in 1:24" twist.
Wrinkled-nose bullets used for COL dummies so as not to waste the good ones.


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16027101 04/25/21
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good stuff RC & G5 this is some fun stuff . i mite have to find me one of them rolling blocks to play with

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16027838 04/25/21
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Dang nice rifles Riflecrank, i like that 650gr Saeco mould, would make a nice hunting bullet in the faster twist 50's.

44, why yes you do Sir, no need for us to hog the fun.


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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16028021 04/25/21
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i am trying to get a rem. rolling block from a guy .it is one of the ones in 43 Spanish it has been d&t and some other things done to it so it is a shooter not collectible

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16028065 04/25/21
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Aren't those Spanish Remingtons chambered in 7×57 ?

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16028269 04/25/21
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it is a 43 i don't know what all they were chambered for

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16028437 04/25/21
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Great info fellows, love the 50-70 round!


Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16030115 04/26/21
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I had a Swedish Rolling Block .50-70 for a while. It was a hoot to shoot


Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: gunner500] #16031444 04/26/21
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Originally Posted by gunner500
... i like that 650gr Saeco mould, would make a nice hunting bullet in the faster twist 50's ...

That is the one that Saint Bagwell recommended to me for my .50-70 Little Bighorn with 1:24" twist, .510"-grooved barrel.
It is about 1.350" long and ought to work with BP. Saint Bagwell would know.

[Linked Image]

Custer probably used the 450-grainer at 1240 fps in 1872:

[Linked Image]

Sometime after 1876 a .50-70 Rolling Block Sporting Rifle just like Custer's was photograped in the lap of Chief Touch the Clouds:

[Linked Image]


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16031488 04/26/21
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Here is the McNelly Sharps saddle-ring carbine replica with 1:18" twist, 22"-long barrel, .512" groove:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16031500 04/26/21
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I tried the McNelly at 100 yards with BP, light load (480-grainer, 65-gr FFg), sights at lowest setting, out of box.
It might be even better with that 650-gr SAECO if sizing, lube, powder charge, wads and lead hardness are tickled with the proper duck feathers.
A local Texas Ranger Re-enactor posed for photographs:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron

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