Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Winchester Brass (lots of pix)

I have read about the poor quality of Winchester brass here, but haven't bought any new Winchester brand cases in many years. The fellow who sold me his 223 dropped off 200 cases. Wow, what happened to their quality?

I couldn't believe the condition of it! Frankly, I didn't believe the stories I read here. After seeing these, I've changed my mind. Has anyone here had problems like this? The cases came from the infamous red bags.



I took 50 out of the bag and put them into a tray. The first thing I noticed was the off centre flash holes and a lack of QC. For those who do not know, flash holes in most manufacturer's cases are punch formed. It's amazing that these would make it out the door.

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I decided to try and save as many cases as I could. Years ago, when I shot competition, we used flash hole uniformers and primer pocket reamers to ensure the flash holes were round and free from brass punch ups - flakes of brass that were left inside the case from flash hole forming. As well, the primer pockets were reamed to a uniform depth. I haven't used these little hand tools for years.

Here is what came out of 50 cases. This is absolutely normal for Remington, Winchester, Federal and others whose flash hole are punch formed.



Here is the flash hole uniformer that reamed out the brass flakes..

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After I finished with the tools, I inspected the cases again. That's when I rejected 17 of the 50. The cases below showed grossly off centre strikes. I have 150 more to look at. If the price wasn't right, everything would have gone into the garbage. I am genuinely surprised that Winchester can sell this!

I fired off a letter to Winchester and hope to get a response. Letters get more attention than emails, in my experience. I don't know how long it will take for them to answer - if they answer.

I received the first responses from Winchester this morning. I sent in pictures as well. 43 of the 100 cases were grossly off centre. Others were either slightly off centre or not properly punched.

Lot no. - RL32

email 1 - Answer: (canned response)

Like many manufacturers in the shooting sports industry, we are experiencing an extremely high demand for our products. We are working as hard as we can to produce an increased supply of quality ammunition to meet our customers’ needs. We appreciate your patience and like always, thank you for choosing Winchester.

email 2 - Answer: (canned response as well, but they appear to be taking the report and refunding my money)

Thank you for contacting Winchester. I am sorry that you were not completely satisfied with your recent Winchester Ammunition purchase. Here is a link to our online support form, https://winchester.com/Support/Customers/Product-Support. If you can provide some contact info and answer a couple questions, one of our customer support reps will work with you to resolve the issue and ensure that you are satisfied with the solution.

That really does look bad. I just bought a bag of 7mmRM to turn into 350RM, It looks like i may have a couple of of more steps.

Yes, it's definitely smart to check each case.

I segregated the obviously bad brass and am keeping it in a bag, should I need to send some in or take more pictures. Of the ones that appeared to be okay, I processed them as in days of old (as I said earlier). Doing this, a few more were culled. I hope that Winchester looks at the pictures I sent, and those of others who contacted them, and acts on it. Their plant managers have to be more vigilant and increase their walkabouts. QC protocols must be reexamined and improved where necessary.

You have to wary of the Internet. Often, people repeat lies, or exaggerate problems. I would like to think that my cases are an isolated event, but reports and pictures have been circulating about Winchester for a few years. Whether it's their own plants or outsourced components, it appears they have a problem.

Steve, this is not surprising. I don’t know if they’re truly off location so much as out of shape. The brass appears to have torn rather than punched clean clean. This is probably due to the condition of the punch and/or the die. Probably they are trying to get as much mileage out of die maintenance as possible given current levels of demand.

Possibly too, the more poorly made ones are sent to Canada, the thought being, if they can’t spell center right up there, they won’t know the difference.

Another thought is, maybe the metallurgy of the brass is off. Did the cases seem to have an off colour?

I know what you mean. I sent them pictures. Some were off centre. You can tell the punches were overdue for replacement because, instead of brass petals inside, several had chunks of torn brass pushed inside. Similar to my original post, single primer pocket pic. My flash hole uniformer hung up on these. Two had partial punch throughs. They were a mess. When you consider that all this was only in the first bag, I was amazed that the QC dept and automated equipment didn't pick up on any of this.

In my opinion, the culprit for all of this was the punches. Given that they are a shorter life item, I would think they could be easily replaced without much downtime. They are also a lot cheaper to replace than the drawing dies! Really, it's not the place to cheapen out.

I don't know about the quality of the brass. It looked okay, but nothing tells the tale like a test.

The last time I contacted Winchester about a bad batch of .223 Rem cases I had bought (about 30% had split necks after the virgin firing), they told me to send in the brass on my dime, and if they deemed that there was a problem with it they would refund the cost of the brass (but not the shipping!). The cost of shipping was going to be half of the money I had into the brass, so I decided just to live with the losses when necks split and avoid the hassle of sending the brass in and trying to source some more. That was the last time I bought new Winchester brass as long as there existed some other alternative.

I believe that my complaint was nothing new to them. I am not a tool and die maker, and will defer to them, but it seems to me that the punches are a problem. Compared to the rest of the press, replacing them should be inexpensive.

Given that it is 2021, it's reasonable to expect that they use optical scanners to help with the QC. So when the punches started chewing up the brass, it should have been picked up by their automated equipment. That assumes of course they use equipment like this. They could be running machinery that kept the troops supplied in WWII.

I don't think it's a case of lot# being chosen to be shipped to Canada, rather just shipping out what is handy. It's not the first batches of questionable brass, there is a reason why these case prep tools are available and Nosler can charge twice as much as Winchester.

First, I'll say, I've never worked with case forming dies, and also, there may be more than one way of doing it (but I doubt it, it's a pretty mature process.) Everything I'm saying here is speculation. I don't know if, in the forming progression, the flash hole is done on the same station as the primer pocket. I would guess so, because if the punch used to form the primer pocket is also a support bushing of sorts for the punch that makes the flash hole, it makes it easier on the flash hole punch, but significantly complicates that station of the process. The portion of the die that supports the case from the inside when the primer pocket is being formed and the flash hole punched, is going to have a hole for the flash hole punch to enter on the down stroke, after it's gone through the brass. The fit of that hole to the punch and the condition of that hole are key to what's happening here. I would say that it's generally not a really close fit, given the amount of burr one is accustomed to finding on the inside of the flash hole. I think, also, that there is probably brass building up on the support portion of the die, so the inside of the case heads are not seated as well as they should be. This creates a gap under where the flash hole punch strikes through, creating more flash and exacerbating the problem in a vicious cycle. It's what one would expect when plants are running 24/7, full-throttle, and don't have enough skilled help in the toolroom to maintain an adequate maintenance schedule. (Isn't it interesting, how when you Canadians pronounce schedule, the "c" is silent. The proper way, you know, is for the "h" to be silent.)

I wonder if enough people brought this to their attention? Putting out a bad product won't make them any money.

I will get more IVI and Prvi brass. I have lost confidence in their product.

Steve;
Good evening, I hope that other than dealing with substandard brass that the day wasn't a bad one for you and yours.

My goodness that's disheartening isn't it?

Winchester used to be one of my "go to" brands but I've not bought either Winchester or Remington brass for a few years.

Thanks for the heads up, I appreciate it and will be looking at any Winchester brass before buying it now.

All the best to you all Steve. Stay well.

Dwayne

I think that's why, in Canada at least, Winchester brass is the last that's sold. Shooters just don't want it.

How about General Dynamics brass? I’ve gotten both mil stamp and 223 REM head stamp brass. I believe it’s made in Canada. The quality looks good, no culls so far in the few thousand that I have bought.

What size drill for the flash hole.

I have over 2000 IVI cases. They are owned by GD. IVI stamped cases are made in Quebec. I have two cartridges - 6x45mm and 223 - that use the same case. To keep the confusion down, I use IVI cases for the 6x45mms and commercial for 223.



I use a Sinclair flash hole tool. Probably 0.076

Buy starline brass.

I won't use current WW brass either. I recently needed some 222 brass and called Higginson wanting to buy some Horandy brass they had listed. She informed me that it was sold out and that they could supply WW instead. I declined and bought Lapua brass elsewhere at about twice the price.

The trouble is that there is very little selection here in Canada now. It's almost to the point where you have to take anything in the way of powder/primers/bullets & brass you can find of do without altogether.

We are very much the poor cousins living up here.

I received this in my email today from Beth Mercer, the office manager for Graywood Sporting. Graywood is the Canadian company that Winchester contacted to handle this.



I sent this reply.