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I have read about the poor quality of Winchester brass here, but haven't bought any new Winchester brand cases in many years. The fellow who sold me his 223 dropped off 200 cases. Wow, what happened to their quality? I couldn't believe the condition of it! Frankly, I didn't believe the stories I read here. After seeing these, I've changed my mind. Has anyone here had problems like this? The cases came from the infamous red bags. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/WqJNdeU.jpg) I took 50 out of the bag and put them into a tray. The first thing I noticed was the off centre flash holes and a lack of QC. For those who do not know, flash holes in most manufacturer's cases are punch formed. It's amazing that these would make it out the door. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/BHl1v8o.jpg) ... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/O9VHnhf.jpg) I decided to try and save as many cases as I could. Years ago, when I shot competition, we used flash hole uniformers and primer pocket reamers to ensure the flash holes were round and free from brass punch ups - flakes of brass that were left inside the case from flash hole forming. As well, the primer pockets were reamed to a uniform depth. I haven't used these little hand tools for years. Here is what came out of 50 cases. This is absolutely normal for Remington, Winchester, Federal and others whose flash hole are punch formed. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/3dRX6pw.jpg) Here is the flash hole uniformer that reamed out the brass flakes.. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/LL8jshI.jpg) ... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/xprbjSy.jpg) After I finished with the tools, I inspected the cases again. That's when I rejected 17 of the 50. The cases below showed grossly off centre strikes. I have 150 more to look at. If the price wasn't right, everything would have gone into the garbage. I am genuinely surprised that Winchester can sell this! ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/WiDR0j6.jpg)
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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I fired off a letter to Winchester and hope to get a response. Letters get more attention than emails, in my experience. I don't know how long it will take for them to answer - if they answer.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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I received the first responses from Winchester this morning. I sent in pictures as well. 43 of the 100 cases were grossly off centre. Others were either slightly off centre or not properly punched. Lot no. - RL32 email 1 - Answer: (canned response) Like many manufacturers in the shooting sports industry, we are experiencing an extremely high demand for our products. We are working as hard as we can to produce an increased supply of quality ammunition to meet our customers’ needs. We appreciate your patience and like always, thank you for choosing Winchester. email 2 - Answer: (canned response as well, but they appear to be taking the report and refunding my money) Thank you for contacting Winchester. I am sorry that you were not completely satisfied with your recent Winchester Ammunition purchase. Here is a link to our online support form, https://winchester.com/Support/Customers/Product-Support. If you can provide some contact info and answer a couple questions, one of our customer support reps will work with you to resolve the issue and ensure that you are satisfied with the solution.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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That really does look bad. I just bought a bag of 7mmRM to turn into 350RM, It looks like i may have a couple of of more steps.
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Yes, it's definitely smart to check each case.
I segregated the obviously bad brass and am keeping it in a bag, should I need to send some in or take more pictures. Of the ones that appeared to be okay, I processed them as in days of old (as I said earlier). Doing this, a few more were culled. I hope that Winchester looks at the pictures I sent, and those of others who contacted them, and acts on it. Their plant managers have to be more vigilant and increase their walkabouts. QC protocols must be reexamined and improved where necessary.
You have to wary of the Internet. Often, people repeat lies, or exaggerate problems. I would like to think that my cases are an isolated event, but reports and pictures have been circulating about Winchester for a few years. Whether it's their own plants or outsourced components, it appears they have a problem.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Steve, this is not surprising. I don’t know if they’re truly off location so much as out of shape. The brass appears to have torn rather than punched clean clean. This is probably due to the condition of the punch and/or the die. Probably they are trying to get as much mileage out of die maintenance as possible given current levels of demand.
Possibly too, the more poorly made ones are sent to Canada, the thought being, if they can’t spell center right up there, they won’t know the difference.
Another thought is, maybe the metallurgy of the brass is off. Did the cases seem to have an off colour?
Mathew 22: 37-39
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I know what you mean. I sent them pictures. Some were off centre. You can tell the punches were overdue for replacement because, instead of brass petals inside, several had chunks of torn brass pushed inside. Similar to my original post, single primer pocket pic. My flash hole uniformer hung up on these. Two had partial punch throughs. They were a mess. When you consider that all this was only in the first bag, I was amazed that the QC dept and automated equipment didn't pick up on any of this.
In my opinion, the culprit for all of this was the punches. Given that they are a shorter life item, I would think they could be easily replaced without much downtime. They are also a lot cheaper to replace than the drawing dies! Really, it's not the place to cheapen out.
I don't know about the quality of the brass. It looked okay, but nothing tells the tale like a test.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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The last time I contacted Winchester about a bad batch of .223 Rem cases I had bought (about 30% had split necks after the virgin firing), they told me to send in the brass on my dime, and if they deemed that there was a problem with it they would refund the cost of the brass (but not the shipping!). The cost of shipping was going to be half of the money I had into the brass, so I decided just to live with the losses when necks split and avoid the hassle of sending the brass in and trying to source some more. That was the last time I bought new Winchester brass as long as there existed some other alternative.
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I believe that my complaint was nothing new to them. I am not a tool and die maker, and will defer to them, but it seems to me that the punches are a problem. Compared to the rest of the press, replacing them should be inexpensive.
Given that it is 2021, it's reasonable to expect that they use optical scanners to help with the QC. So when the punches started chewing up the brass, it should have been picked up by their automated equipment. That assumes of course they use equipment like this. They could be running machinery that kept the troops supplied in WWII.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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I don't think it's a case of lot# being chosen to be shipped to Canada, rather just shipping out what is handy. It's not the first batches of questionable brass, there is a reason why these case prep tools are available and Nosler can charge twice as much as Winchester.
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I know what you mean. I sent them pictures. Some were off centre. You can tell the punches were overdue for replacement because, instead of brass petals inside, several had chunks of torn brass pushed inside. Similar to my original post, single primer pocket pic. My flash hole uniformer hung up on these. Two had partial punch throughs. They were a mess. When you consider that all this was only in the first bag, I was amazed that the QC dept and automated equipment didn't pick up on any of this.
In my opinion, the culprit for all of this was the punches. Given that they are a shorter life item, I would think they could be easily replaced without much downtime. They are also a lot cheaper to replace than the drawing dies! Really, it's not the place to cheapen out.
I don't know about the quality of the brass. It looked okay, but nothing tells the tale like a test. First, I'll say, I've never worked with case forming dies, and also, there may be more than one way of doing it (but I doubt it, it's a pretty mature process.) Everything I'm saying here is speculation. I don't know if, in the forming progression, the flash hole is done on the same station as the primer pocket. I would guess so, because if the punch used to form the primer pocket is also a support bushing of sorts for the punch that makes the flash hole, it makes it easier on the flash hole punch, but significantly complicates that station of the process. The portion of the die that supports the case from the inside when the primer pocket is being formed and the flash hole punched, is going to have a hole for the flash hole punch to enter on the down stroke, after it's gone through the brass. The fit of that hole to the punch and the condition of that hole are key to what's happening here. I would say that it's generally not a really close fit, given the amount of burr one is accustomed to finding on the inside of the flash hole. I think, also, that there is probably brass building up on the support portion of the die, so the inside of the case heads are not seated as well as they should be. This creates a gap under where the flash hole punch strikes through, creating more flash and exacerbating the problem in a vicious cycle. It's what one would expect when plants are running 24/7, full-throttle, and don't have enough skilled help in the toolroom to maintain an adequate maintenance schedule. (Isn't it interesting, how when you Canadians pronounce schedule, the "c" is silent. The proper way, you know, is for the "h" to be silent.)
Mathew 22: 37-39
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I wonder if enough people brought this to their attention? Putting out a bad product won't make them any money.
I will get more IVI and Prvi brass. I have lost confidence in their product.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Steve;
Good evening, I hope that other than dealing with substandard brass that the day wasn't a bad one for you and yours.
My goodness that's disheartening isn't it?
Winchester used to be one of my "go to" brands but I've not bought either Winchester or Remington brass for a few years.
Thanks for the heads up, I appreciate it and will be looking at any Winchester brass before buying it now.
All the best to you all Steve. Stay well.
Dwayne
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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I think that's why, in Canada at least, Winchester brass is the last that's sold. Shooters just don't want it.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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How about General Dynamics brass? I’ve gotten both mil stamp and 223 REM head stamp brass. I believe it’s made in Canada. The quality looks good, no culls so far in the few thousand that I have bought.
"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
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What size drill for the flash hole.
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How about General Dynamics brass? I’ve gotten both mil stamp and 223 REM head stamp brass. I believe it’s made in Canada. The quality looks good, no culls so far in the few thousand that I have bought. I have over 2000 IVI cases. They are owned by GD. IVI stamped cases are made in Quebec. I have two cartridges - 6x45mm and 223 - that use the same case.  To keep the confusion down, I use IVI cases for the 6x45mms and commercial for 223. What size drill for the flash hole. I use a Sinclair flash hole tool. Probably 0.076
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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"The 375HH is the greatest level of power you can get for the investment in recoil." (JJHack)
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That was the last time I bought new Winchester brass as long as there existed some other alternative. I won't use current WW brass either. I recently needed some 222 brass and called Higginson wanting to buy some Horandy brass they had listed. She informed me that it was sold out and that they could supply WW instead. I declined and bought Lapua brass elsewhere at about twice the price. The trouble is that there is very little selection here in Canada now. It's almost to the point where you have to take anything in the way of powder/primers/bullets & brass you can find of do without altogether.
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We are very much the poor cousins living up here. I received this in my email today from Beth Mercer, the office manager for Graywood Sporting. Graywood is the Canadian company that Winchester contacted to handle this. Good morning Steve,
Re: Winchester File # 0521-021
Regarding the issue you have experienced with Winchester Brass I have been asked to handle this situation for you since you are located in Canada. Please mail the brass, with the bag to me at the following address:
GRAYWOOD SPORTING GROUP INC
611 NEAL DRIVE
PETERBOROUGH, ON
K9J 6X7
ATTN: BETH
Make sure you put a copy of the mailing receipt in with the package so I can have them re-imburse you for that as well. Once it arrives here I will let Winchester know what I have received and they will issue a credit from East Alton, Illinois.
Sincerely,
Beth Mercer - Office Manager I sent this reply. Good morning, Beth. I know you represent Winchester, but I think this issue needs to be brought to the attention of the hunting and shooting community.
I have talked to several people about this, and they have shown me their brass. It looks like mine, and should never have left the plant.
This is an ongoing QC problem that for whatever reason, Winchester has chosen to ignore. It has been suggested that few people are not returning the cases because of the expense. Some consumers take a financial hit, and Winchester keeps the cash. The issue remains unresolved however.
I realize that you are only doing what you have been asked to do, but I do not think it is in anyone's interest to return the cases. Doing so makes the problem "disappear".
Winchester has been ignoring the problem for a few years. I expected them to explain what they were doing to correct this issue, but no explanation was forthcoming.
I have owned 303british.com since 1997. This is a better place to examine what has been happening to consumers. I will post the photos and discussions to the outdoor audience.
All the best.
Safe Shooting!
Stephen Redgwell
303british.com
--
Sent from myMail for Android
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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A friend came over the other day to load some new 45acp cases he has had for about 20 years. I was sizing them and crunch my decapping pin broke. When I inspected the case it had no flash hole. I looked through the remaining cases to prevent busting another pin. Out of the 500 cases 13 had no flash hole and about 20 had off center holes. 18 of them had flash holes that were nearly as large as the primer pocket. We loaded the remainder of these cases with a mild load of Unique and a 230 FMJ and went to the range. Out of the 1st 8 round mag 6 of the cases split. I am in the process of pulling all the bullets and junking the entire lot of brass. Of course after 20 years there is no sense contacting winchester. It is not the first time I have had trouble with their brass but it will be the last. Their quality control hasnt been all that good for a loooong time.
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That's not encouraging.  If you bought brass, maybe have pix, or a story, I really want to hear from you. steve  303british.com It will only take a few seconds. Your name won't be divulged. I think we should remind Winchester of their responsibilities to the shooting community. I have another update. Things are moving, albeit slowly. I did not receive a response from the Canadian Rep, Beth Mercer. It was obvious that she forwarded my email to Winchester because I received this.
Winchester 0521-021
Contact photo
From Cxxxz, Christine EALT on 2021-05-06 16:07
Details Plain text
Hello stephen
I wanted to reach out to you about your concern with some defective cases. I would like you too know that our Quality Control team is working really hard to get this taken care of and I am sorry for the inconvenience. If you would like to send the bad shell casing back I will be glad to give you a refund and pick that up at no cost to you. Please let me know.
Thank you,
There are two things that make this response sad. First, Christine, the writer, didn't check the case number/original communication (Winchester 0521-021) before responding. Had she done so, she would have seen the pictures and write up I forwarded. There was not a single case, as she makes reference to, but rather, 17 of the first 50 out of the bag. The second is her spelling. I suppose I should appreciate that at least it wasn't a form letter. It was a complaint however, so customer service people check their spelling and do not refer to customers by their first names. Hopefully, I will hear from Winchester from someone above the associate level.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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After that letter yesterday, I sent this response. Hi Christine. I appreciate that you emailed. I am not angry with Winchester per se. I am disappointed that this is an ongoing problem that has been left unresolved. Let me be clear, it wasn't a single case, but rather, there were 17 defective cases of the first 50 taken from the bag. I sent two pictures. I could not forward all the pictures because of the limit what your company allows at the customer support page. I am not a tool and die maker, but spoke to one about the problem. I showed him the cases. Without seeing the press and die, he could not say with absolute certainty that the punch was past due replacement. It could have been a fouling or misalignment problem. Regardless, he told me was that QC is automated and these cases should have been picked up before they reached the bag. Something went wrong. I spoke with people at my club, and talked to acquaintances on the web. I wanted to know if any of them had experienced this problem with Winchester cases before. I got over 40 responses in two days. Taking into account that people on the Internet tend to exaggerate or misreport things, I followed up all the emails and was dismayed with the pictures I received. I discovered this problem has been going on for at least three years that I can determine. I think you understand that poor QC has already affected your business. I appreciate the follow up, but honestly, how do I politely say that you are shooting yourselves in the foot, and deserve it, due to inaction? The industry is fighting politicians and COVID. Things are difficult. It's sad when the last case maker product on the shelves is Winchester. I am not saying this to insult, but I switched to Prvi Partizan, Starline and military surplus cases for much of my reloading. My competition loads have always been Lapua. I suggest that if Winchester keeps walking this road, they'll end up in receivership like other US firearms/accessory companies. --- Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell 303british.com Visit my bookstore at www.303british.com. Latest releases - 24Hr Campfryer & More Campfyrer Tales - outdoor fiction! --- I got an answer back this morning. I hope it is sincere and my observations and pictures make it to the QC manager. She could be paying my lip service, but I know that mine was not the first complaint about these cases. My voice, added to the choir may help. If it turns things around, then it is worth chasing. I have asked that she send me a follow up and the problem that the QC manager found. Hello Stephen
I really appreciate your concern and value it. I will make sure I escalate this to our Quality Control Manger and will work to get this resolved. If I can do anything else to help please let me know. If you would like a refund for the defective cases I will be glad to pick those up at no charge to you and give you a refund. Please let me know.
Thanks Christine
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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How about General Dynamics brass? I’ve gotten both mil stamp and 223 REM head stamp brass. I believe it’s made in Canada. The quality looks good, no culls so far in the few thousand that I have bought. That sounds strange... I have worked at a company that was owned by Olin aerospace until 1987 when I quit. They would give me a break on buying Winchester ammo. They now send me a pension. I have worked for the same company when it was owned by General Dynamics, until 2008 when I quit.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Funny, we've been saying it's garbage for a while now, and just now you are catching on? The red and black bag stuff is chidt. Repeat. Repeat... Send a letter Steve, they will listen to you. I'm sure..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Funny, we've been saying it's garbage for a while now, and just now you are catching on? The red and black bag stuff is chidt. Repeat. Repeat... Send a letter Steve, they will listen to you. I'm sure.. No you haven't. You claimed that the government was making brass out of algum, and you were getting splinters! I already sent them three letters, and a cake. A real good one too - strawberry freckles. Made from scratch! They were appreciative. One person asked for the recipe! Of course, I told her that they have to learn to make cases first. No more sweets from me at the GDOT parties!
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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the new Winchester brass i have purchased ,your right Winchester brass is far from perfect brass. i just use Winchester brass to hunt with and i do inspect each piece of brass ,i do end up throw some away. when i target shoot or wanted see how well a rifle shoots i always use Lapua brass if Lapua does make that certain cartridge ,sometimes i can improvise with some Lapua brass. right now if you need brass Winchester may be all you can find ? good luck,Pete53
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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I screwed up, nothing new there, and found I was short 350RM brass. No chance of me finding some so I looked at what 350RM shooters use to do. They would cut down Winchester 7mmRM . It was the thinnest ,thus the easiest. OK, 7mmRM is right up there with 30-06 for common. In metro Vancouver, the third largest metro are in Canada I found one store with a couple of bags of red bag and another with a one box of Nosler. The Nosler was twice the price. I passed on the Nosler. I considered myself lucky.
I haven't formed the 350RM yet.
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the new Winchester brass i have purchased ,your right Winchester brass is far from perfect brass. i just use Winchester brass to hunt with and i do inspect each piece of brass ,i do end up throw some away. when i target shoot or wanted see how well a rifle shoots i always use Lapua brass if Lapua does make that certain cartridge ,sometimes i can improvise with some Lapua brass. right now if you need brass Winchester may be all you can find ? good luck,Pete53 If people don't send in complaints with pictures, or send back the brass, they won't do anything. If you can, please send them pictures of your bad brass. They'll get the picture! (No pun intended).
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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