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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: SafariLife] #16046573 05/01/21
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Mule Deer Offline
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SafariLife,

Thanks! We're both after the same thing--bullets that shoot well, and penetrate and expand sufficiently to result in quick kills.

Your photos of the North Forks look a lot like the few I've recovered. NFs are great bullets, and I have used them with great success in both Africa (though haven't used them on buffalo) and North America on game up to bull moose. On the moose used the 160-grain from a 7x57,. started at around 2700--which worked great on a 44" bull in Alberta, body size about like those of Cape buffalo in the Selous Reserve. My few recoveries have been in the 95-98% weight range, and NFs have always been easy to get to shoot accurately.

I have been lucky in my hunting life, having had plenty of opportunities not only to try different bullets and cartridges myself, but accompany friends who also used a wide variety of rifles, cartridges and bullets. On that month-long African cull, 189 animals from springbok to buffalo were taken. That was the biggest such hunt I've been on, but have been on several others. They provide a wealth of information.

Another thing I've learned, through getting to know several bullet-makers very well, is that most tend to constantly try to improve the product, by tweaking materials, construction, etc. So results from earlier versions may not be the same as today's product. All of which provides another excuse for more field testing!

Good hunting,
John


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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Mule Deer] #16048411 05/02/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by jorgeI
I am by no means a Nosler fan, but they are designed to lose a lot of the front, causing damage and allowing the shank to penetrate deeper. You guys should just "come to the light" and go T/TTSXs smile


Hi Jorge,

I hope you weren't meaning to include me among "You guys!" Killed my first animal with a Barnes X in 1989, and took quite a few others with them through the 1990s, as quality (and accuracy) steadily improved--though used Fail Safes somewhat more, because Winchester solved the accuracy/fouling problem earlier.

Started using the TSX in 2003, the year it appeared, when Eileen provided Coni Brooks with the first "field report" of a TSX used on a bull elk--which happened to be a 140-grain from a .270 Winchester. Since then she has used more TSXs than any other bullet--though since 2007 all have been the Tipped TSX's, because they solved the occasional problem of smaller-caliber TSX not opening.

I haven't used them quite as much as she has, mostly because there are always new bullets that need to be field-tested. But have used plenty, probably about half in a pair of .257 Weatherbys, and in fact the last big game animal I killed in 2020 was a mule deer taken at 327 yards with the 175-grain Barnes LRX from a .30-06. Didn't really need that much bullet for the deer, but there was a possibility of running into a grizzly in that area, about 25 miles from our house. It worked well on the deer, though, dropping it instantly with a what Elmer Keith called a "raking" shot--with the typical minimal meat damage.

If I ever hunt buffalo again, will probably use the 270-grain TSX from my .375 H&H, which was the first rifle I took to Africa a few decades ago.

John


No sir and besides, I was most definitively going the tongue in cheek route. To me Partitions remain the standard and when they shoot that is what I use, but remember a few years ago the only bullet I think Nosler was making in the bigger calibers was the 375 and I was loading for my 416 Rigby so I went with the A Frame. It was only a year or two later than an old poster here JJHack who has a lot of African experience, convinced me to try the TTXs and as I've mentioned before and aside from their performance on game, they have been the most singularly accurate bullet across all the calibers I use. Deep down inside though, I will always have a predilection for cup and cores. And BTW, my double shall never be "soiled" by a mono-metal bullet smile


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: jorgeI] #16048574 05/02/21
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Yeah, I tend to use lead-cores in my doubles and the rifle barrels of my drillings!

One of the more interesting things I recall happening with Nosler Partitions happened when they changed from making them on lathes to impact-extrusion in the mid-1970s. They offered lathe-turned .375s, but their first impact machines wouldn't handle any bullets bigger than .338 or so. The safari industry wasn't as big then, so they dropped the .375s--and the price for the lathe-turned .375s went up to several bucks apiece on the "open market"! Back then they were among the very few controlled-expansion .375 bullets available.

Which is why Lee Reid started making A-Frames. They were the primary .375 controlled-expansion bullets for a number of years--along with .416s, .458s, etc., and pretty much took over the market.

Of course, the safari industry really started growing around that time, and a bunch of companies make controlled-expansion bullets in .375+ caliber bullets. But Swift really got it started.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Mule Deer] #16048725 05/02/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
SafariLife,


Another thing I've learned, through getting to know several bullet-makers very well, is that most tend to constantly try to improve the product, by tweaking materials, construction, etc. So results from earlier versions may not be the same as today's product. All of which provides another excuse for more field testing!

Good hunting,
John



My PH and I actually were discussing this 2 weeks ago, only he feels that Barnes went the other way with TSX and screwed them up-despite having embraced the TSX when they first came out he has made an about face and thinks they don't work as well as they first did and would rather they not be used by his clients. As I mentioned in another thread, nearly all African PHs would prefer their clients use A Frames. I know of two Alaskan Master Guides as well- one said after 50 years and 500 bears the only ones lost were with TSX, another one asked if I would use A Frames instead of TSX in my hand loads.

I had used TSX exclusively since 2004 except for that Kodiak bear hunt and GSC Customs (same monometal design) for a Dall.

In '18 we had some really poor results while shooting bait for my lion using 300 gr TSX in my 3-7-5 and recovered 3 bullets from bait- one from an eland, another from a buff and a third I can't remember where/what. All good shots, but poor performance. After recovering the bullets he told me he did not want me using the 3-7-5 on my lion and insisted I use my 300 Win as he knew it had the velocity to open up and perform adequately and feared the 3-7-5 TSX would not open up at all. He was right.

I have no problem using the TSX in my 270 & 300 Win in easy to kill animals - like deer, sheep, etc where I know they'll expand and are accurate to 300+ yards. Did the Spanish Slam using my 300 last year. But I won't use them on big game under 3000 fps and I won't use them in my 340 Wby. Fortunately, my 3-7-5 shoots cloverleafs with 300 gr A Frames (and 65 gr of RL 15 mirrors Federal factory ammo) and my 500 shoots 570 gr A Frames to the same point of regulation as the factory 570 gr Hornady and my 570 gr Barnes/CEB solid loads (95 gr RL 15).








Last edited by Tony_Soprano; 05/02/21.
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Tony_Soprano] #16048859 05/02/21
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What is the twist rate on your 375?



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Mule Deer] #16048895 05/02/21
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John, you’re 100% right - we can never do enough field testing ! Hoping to get to Zambia in September to do just that ! Let me know if you get word of another culling hunt- I wouldn’t mind standing with you shoulder to shoulder

Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: jwp475] #16049150 05/02/21
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Originally Posted by jwp475

What is the twist rate on your 375?



Don't remember. It was one of the last wooden rifles Kevin Weaver built back in the '00s. '41 Pre War action, period correct Tilden safety piece, 26" Krieger barrel. I then bought one of D'arcy Echols' Legend stocks to use it in Alaska.

The bottom is the 3-7-5 in its wooden stock, the top my Charlie Sisk 300 Win- my favorite go to rifle.......

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Last edited by Tony_Soprano; 05/02/21.
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16049332 05/02/21
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Kevin did great work on that 375. Beautiful rifle.


Semper Fi
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16049479 05/02/21
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3-7-5 bullets

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]




300 Win bullets

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16049922 05/03/21
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Tony
How many animals have you taken with that rifle ?
Charlie


The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16049992 05/03/21
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Tony, the 300s look ok to me and I suspect velocity might be the culprit with the 375s. I spoke with Connie and Randy Brooks years ago and they both alluded and preferred the lighter (faster) pills for both the 375 (270gr) and the 416 (350gr). Thanks for a great report.


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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Tony_Soprano] #16050227 05/03/21
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Tony,

By coincidence this post from my friend Rick just appeared on the "Ask the Gun Writers" forum:

"I am still recovering from travel to Africa but wanted to share my results using my 375 H&H loaded with 270 gr TSX bullets. Not long ago I shared my loads using CFE223 and IMR 4451. I ended up using loads that gave 2700 rather than pushing for more velocity.

I used it on three Cape buffalo. Each expired after a single shot. The distances were longer than normal for buffalo. They were at 115, 125, and 130. The Buffalo traveled between 15 and 30 yards.

My rifle has a 1-10 twist.

I have used this load on 8 buffalo. The first five were at closer ranges but each needed a single shot and the distances traveled were about the same.

This 375 is much easier to shoot precisely than a normal 416. My experience has forced me to change my mind about wanting a 416 over a 375."

Also might mention that while I have experienced a "hard" batch of TSX bullets, it was long ago, and the bullets were 100-grain .25s. Had a few fail to expand, or at any rate expand completely, both from a .257 Roberts when handloaded to 3150 fps and a .257 Weatherby when loaded to 3550. Also have seen a few others shot by friends into various animals apparently fail to expand--but so far ALL have been in calibers of .30 or less--which have much smaller hollow-points than TSXs above .30 caliber.

The problem with the 100-grain .25s was totally cured by the advent of the Tipped TSX a couple years later. My wife and I have used them on several dozen animals since, from pronghorns at medium-long ranges to cow elk, and all have opened well and killed quickly. This is because the Tipped models ALL have much larger "hollow-points" to accommodate the shank of the plastic tip.

While Barnes doesn't make a .375 270 or 300-grain Tipped TSX, no doubt due to length problems. I am pretty sure the 250 TTSX .375 would work quite well on buffalo.


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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16050328 05/03/21
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I guess y’all ain’t eyetalian and didn’t watch The Sopranos.......it’s Frank.

Yeah Jorge that’s exactly why Butch wanted to use the 300 Win on the lion. Again when I showed up for that hunt he was more than happy with the TSX but has since made an about face specifically with the larger (slower) caliber bullets.

Charlie you may remember I ordered this rifle for some upcoming elk hunts back in 2004. I knew what I was talking about because I was on the internet. I insisted on a Krieger CM barrel and wanted it 26”. After a pregnant pause you said “yeah, I can do that. But you know I’ve had some good luck with 24” Lilja barrels, but I’ll do what you want....” at the time I thought Huh......so glad I listened to you!!! I worked up a load with “the new” 180 gr TSX and that rifle has shot one ragged hole ever since.

I’ve got a bunch of sweet custom rifles & had an obsession with Pre War Mod 70s but that Classic you built Charlie is my favorite- that rifle just flat out shoots! Elk x2 second one was 370” so I stopped hunting elk, 380+ super gold stag (shot 5 stags and a chamois that day), black fallow, back to back tahr and an aramapalu ram in the South Island, mule deers in ol’ Mexico, Nilgai, 5 zebra, impala, gemsbok, blesbok, sable, red lechwe, wart hogs, leopard, lion, all 4 Spanish Ibex, many deers......and yes for its birthday I had it repainted in ‘17.

Thanks Charlie for building the best damn rifle I own. At the time I had D’arcy’s order form on my desk but I decided I wanted to go with a fellow Texan.

Cold barrel POI group done over the course of a day. Could have been done over the course of 17 years.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Last edited by Tony_Soprano; 05/03/21.
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Mule Deer] #16050502 05/03/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
DF,

I recall that was Reagan as well.

Kevin Thomas tends to just laugh when somebody (which is occasionally a younger PH) claims Partitions aren't adequate for buffalo.



Partitions are never a bad choice. My benchmark.

I will say that I have up to a half dozen cape buffalo down from the 250 TSX in the 9.3 x 62, and another 5-6 that others have taken with my load. Never failed to bring them down quickly. I have confidence that the you'd see the same in the .375 H&H.

Last edited by hatari; 05/03/21.

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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Tony_Soprano] #16050517 05/03/21
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Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano
I guess y’all ain’t eyetalian and didn’t watch The Sopranos.......it’s Frank.

Yeah Jorge that’s exactly why Butch wanted to use the 300 Win on the lion. Again when I showed up for that hunt he was more than happy with the TSX but has since made an about face specifically with the larger (slower) caliber bullets.

Charlie you may remember I ordered this rifle for some upcoming elk hunts back in 2004. I knew what I was talking about because I was on the internet. I insisted on a Krieger CM barrel and wanted it 26”. After a pregnant pause you said “yeah, I can do that. But you know I’ve had some good luck with 24” Lilja barrels, but I’ll do what you want....” at the time I thought Huh......so glad I listened to you!!! I worked up a load with “the new” 180 gr TSX and that rifle has shot one ragged hole ever since.

I’ve got a bunch of sweet custom rifles & had an obsession with Pre War Mod 70s but that Classic you built Charlie is my favorite- that rifle just flat out shoots! Elk x2 second one was 370” so I stopped hunting elk, 380+ super gold stag (shot 5 stags and a chamois that day), black fallow, back to back tahr and an aramapalu ram in the South Island, mule deers in ol’ Mexico, Nilgai, 5 zebra, impala, gemsbok, blesbok, sable, red lechwe, wart hogs, leopard, lion, all 4 Spanish Ibex, many deers......and yes for its birthday I had it repainted in ‘17.

Thanks Charlie for building the best damn rifle I own. At the time I had D’arcy’s order form on my desk but I decided I wanted to go with a fellow Texan.

Cold barrel POI group done over the course of a day. Could have been done over the course of 17 years.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


That is a reassuring sorta rifle right there.


Semper Fi
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16050596 05/03/21
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Not quite as good as yours, Frank, but this is a out of the box Model 70 Classic Stainless with Hornady factory ammo..

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Created: 05/02/21 08:25
Description: 150FactHdyWhitetail300clsc

# FPS FT-LBS PF
3 3207 0.00 0.00
2 3242 0.00 0.00
1 3219 0.00 0.00
Average: 3222.7 FPS
SD: 17.8 FPS
Min: 3207 FPS
Max: 3242 FPS
Spread: 35 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 3223 FPS


Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, Winston Churchill paid to hunt....
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16051622 05/03/21
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Kinda tough to ignore the expansion........especially the 90% between the ears........."should I have used the A Frames instead???????"

570 gr (500 Nitro) recovered from a buff at 40 yards 570 gr Barnes solid recovered from elephant skull base for comparison.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

The two schools of thought (WBY lightweight ultra high velocity and old school heavy & slow) are both valid but not universal and not for all situations. I'm a firm believer in the slightly heavier slightly faster is ideal. Anecdotally, the sweet spot for 130 gr 270 Win TSX and 180 gr 300 Win TSX is 200-300 yards(the 300 Win is just plain deadly at 3-350 yards)..can't remember where the bullets recovered from an elk at 289 y and the stag at 309 y are but they made a text book X....

I believe in the shorter distances the "pencil through" allegations that the TSX detractors claim are incorrect. I believe they do open up, but they are mechanically efficient and behave more like a solid (who knows maybe they don't open, but I don't believe that), especially if all they're going through is a flimsy piece of meat surrounding air.

Perhaps the lighterish bullets in the heavy calibers going a little bit faster will unwind the petals more, but the undisputed, inherent accuracy advantage the TSX have is kinda a moot point at the distances one hunts dangerous game. And for me- the lackluster performance and in my eyes "failure" to fully expand on that hunt will be etched in my brain forever. (And it doesn't hurt that my DG rifles like A Frames.)

Again, please don't count me as a detractor, just want to pass along what happened- I will continue to use them on my high velocity 3000 fps (I'm old) rounds........

Last edited by Tony_Soprano; 05/03/21.
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16051716 05/03/21
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Great info Frank, appreciate all of the pictures and results from the Swifts. Thank you..


Semper Fi
Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16051870 05/03/21
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Gerrod of GSCustom posted on AR the importance of twist when using monometal expanding bullets. He also stated that was the main reason to drop down a weight from your normal lead core.
I killed an antelope near Medicine Bow, Wy. around 2004/2005 with 180 TSX at 777 yards from my 300 win. The bullet was not recovered, but the internal damage was undistinguishable from animals taken at closer ranges of 100 yards or so. My 30 win sports a 1 in 10 twist.

Not sure the the twist rate on my 416 Rem but I know that it is too slow for 40p grain TSX as they will tumble during penetration and don't open well but, the 350 grain TSX at the same velocity peneyrates straight and expands very well



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Re: Buffalo bullets [Re: Benbo] #16051980 05/03/21
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Yes quite an informative chap. He convinced me to use one of his 100gr bullets in my .270 on a Dall (can't remember the load but it was zippin around 3450ish.... Did its job- ram dropped on the spot at 257 y. Of course being the stubborn dumbass that I am I still wanted an 130 gr bullet. Sadly I don't know if they're having issues but they haven't had any in stock and not filled a backorder in over a year.

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