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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16036297 04/28/21
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Yes sir. My mistake, it is the Monoflex.


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16038731 04/28/21
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With that good info from beretzs on H4198 loads for the Hornady Monoflex 250-grainer,
I will use COL of 3.340" crimped on a Canntool cannelure,
starting with H4198 at 78.0 grains and go to 82.0 grains (COMPRESSED)
and AA-5744 at 65.0 to 69.0 grains (NOT COMPRESSED)
unless there is some funny business along the way.
Will use Daisy the 24"-barreled Ruger No.1 .458 Win.Mag.
That will be a total of 30 rounds, nice outing for Daisy.

Will do that when the weather, the stars, and the Old Ladies around here align
to permit firing those full-bore, paper-patched 530-grainers with duplexed BP in Goldie the .45-2.6" SWT Ruger No. 1,
the .458 WIN Twin.
Hopefully same day for both, for the record.

Speaking of the record, here's one more review of another 300-grainer with H4198
before moving on to 250-grainers, new for me:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron

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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16039321 04/29/21
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beretzs Offline
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Great write up. I missed out on grabbing some 300 grain TTSX's awhile back, but I had good thoughts in mind for that bullet. I mainly just wanna goof around and thump some deer with the load, maybe a black bear if I could. I need to go back and rengage with the 250 Monoflex's though. Those were pretty easy shooting, even at 2900.


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: beretzs] #16047414 05/02/21
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Since light-for-caliber bullets are being discussed for the GREAT .458 Win, I've gone on record as liking the 300 TSX. It's accurate and fast from my Ruger No.1, whether at about 2750 fps or +2900 fps. The advantage of the 300 with the poly tip is expansion as low as 1400 fps (I read that somewhere).

But here's another point of interest which I made mention of in 2011 in the second edition of my manual on the .458: According to NRA's HANDLOADING book circa 1981, "The WORKING chamber pressure for the .458 Winchester Magnum is COMMONLY limited to ABOUT 53,000 c.u.p. The established MAXIMUM product AVERAGE for FACTORY ammunition is 56,200 c.u.p." Highlights are mine.

Whether we multiply CUP by 1.18x for PSI (As per Accurate powder) or 1.13x , that would make a "within reasonable" maximum psi to be anywhere from 63,500 to 66, 200 psi - and max reloads from manuals are often far less than even 53,000 cup. Check the Winchester data as per Hodgdon at around 43, 000 to 44,000 cup.at factory levels of about 2040 - 2065 fps for the 500 - 510gr. So, I have few qualms over loading the .458 to any psi that appears safe based on common visual and physical effects on the brass and ejection. It's very difficult to overload the GREAT .458 with suitable powders -- that's one advantage of the relatively short case.

As someone pointed out a long time ago re the single-shot Ruger in .45-70: "You'll reach a point in recoil that limits your choice of loads long before you reach the limit of the Ruger's true capability". In a similar way, that equally applies to the wonderful .458 Winchester Magnum.

Was the Lott ever really a need?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16047522 05/02/21
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I plan to give the 250 Monoflexs a decent work out soon when I get back home. I’d bet those will let the stuffing outta a buck or bear. Pretty nice on the recoil side as well.


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16049597 05/02/21
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Yes, that 250-grain Monoflex at about 3000 fps might be useful, and variety is the spice of life, eh?
Certainly would be nice on the shoulder even at 3000 fps, especially if it can be done with less powder weight like with AA-5744.
That would be a different kind of "reduced load" at 4996 ft-lbs of KE.
At Ammoguide.com there is a compressed load with 80.0 grains of ADI AR-2207 (same as H4198)
that made the Monoflex go 3010 fps from a 24" barrel.
COL was not reported there.
That would be 5029 ft-lbs KE.

For inspiration:

[Linked Image]

Use a Lee Factory Crimp die, with or without the extra cannelure made by a canneluring hand tool.
At 3.340" COL, the H4198 would not be much compressed.
The AA-5744 will not be at all compressed yet full enough to avoid temptation to use a filler.


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16050038 05/03/21
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That's a great idea. I will try seating them out a bit and see what happens. I was easily into the 2900's with my 22" barrel. You're motivating me to get the rifle up and shooting RC!


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16050625 05/03/21
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Adding 43 fps for the extra 2" of barrel with H4198 and the Monoflex, beretzs is knocking on the door of 3000 fps with 79.0 grains in a 24" barrel.

Getting myself motivated too.
It would really be nice to hunt deer with that little rubbery-tipped monometal .458 bullet.
It will work in a tubular magazine too, for a .45-70 Gov't. lever action, loaded short on that first factory cannelure.
In bear country keep some heavier-duty rounds in the magazine too for close-range use.
Bob's latest blog, "BEAR Defense Weapons -- P1" has got me thinking on that.
My comment there to him:

Bob has mentioned the 480-gr DGX "dual use" slugs before.
They were designed to work in the no-throat .450 Nitro Express, only .450" diameter forward of their cannelure, .458" diameter below the cannelure.
That makes them ideal in a .45-70 Gov't. standard chamber too.
I hope he mentions them again in "BEAR Defense Weapons -- P2."

The hunter in bear country could do a lot worse than a .458-caliber, 480-grain Hornady DGX.
Whether in a no-throat .45-70Gov't. , crimped on the factory cannelure and run through a Winchester 1886 short rifle, lever action,
or loaded a little longer than SAAMI in a .458 Winchester Magnum.
1300 fps rapid fire in the former, or 2300 fps in the latter.
The former would work like solids for deep penetration with a bloody big hole.
The latter would make bloodier big holes almost as deep.
That "FN soft" bullet might actually expand if going 1000 fps faster.

The next time I hunt Kodiak Island I will be packing a .458 WM bolt action on the hillsides,
and sleeping with it AND a shorter .45-70 Gov't. which will be handier in the tent,
especially on moonless nights when a big bear comes to press his nose against my tent.
Last time that happened to me I had to start shooting inside the tent with a 26"-barreled
.340 Wby Fibermark. It was a bit awkward.

Fatal black bear attacks in Colorado lately: https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/News-Release-Details.aspx?NewsID=7777


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16053463 05/04/21
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Sir Ron, thanks for the nudge!

Yes, recently I went on record as suggesting the three manufactured bullets I'd have on my bullet shelves if limited to that. And the 480gr DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) from Hornady would be the heavy. It shoots well from my current Ruger No.1 in .458 at 2353 fps (5900 ft-lbs) using 82 grains of H4895, WLRM primers, Rem brass, and 3.585" COL (corrected to MV). Temp @ 21C/70F.

From my former Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT it completely penetrated the test media at 15', hitting a ledge behind and leaving a .458" imprint. The bullet was never found. MV was a reduced load at 1780 fps to simulate impact speed at about 1700 fps on a tough animal. If fired from the LT at about 2200 fps, that would be a range to animal of approximately 175 yards. With its flat tip, I've no doubt as to its devastating ability on anything. Those results compared to a 500gr GS puts it in very good light compared to the 500gr Speer which was leaving the muzzle at 1750 fps, and penetrated 6.5" while retaining only 62% of its weight at 310 grains. The 480 DGX had penetrated 15" when it made exit from the second box and hit the ledge about 6" behind it.

On black bear from my Ruger .458 Win, I'd probably slow it to about 2100 fps over approximately 72 -73 grains of H4895. That would still give a useful range to 150 - 160 yards. I've not yet run those numbers in a ballistics program, but will do that and get back here, but I think they're close enough. It would be rare in my experience to shoot a bear at over 100 yards, but that always a possibility.

I'm looking forward to getting out for some scouting, and the .458 will get it's share of that as soon as I regain strength in my arms, wrists and hands from the debilitating effects of arthritis. While activity is the best medicine, I've been given a prescription of little white pills that will kick in slowly, I'm told.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16053641 05/04/21
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Well, I did not want to come back and bad mouth the 458. I now have more results, both good and bad. Nothing to brag about. Not complaining either.

I shot 300 gr Hornady HP with 56 gr RE-7. At 50 yards, 2.6" groups of 5 and 100 yards not even waste my time shooting 5 for a group. Bad.

Switched to 325gr FTX with 58 gr RE-7. AT 50 yards 6 shots under and inch (two sheets of paper). Moved out to 100 and got 3 into an acceptable 2" pattern. Considering using an old 3x Leupold heavy crosshair, not best for aiming at 100 yards. Good and appropriate scope for the gun. But not for shooting match accuracy. That was never the goal. Good.

The FTX have a reputation for breaking up on deer, which is fine, I hope to blow up some smaller critters.

I did not keep all the paper, but; since the forum is now hosting pics:


Attached Files
458Fun_resize.jpg (23.06 KB, 137 downloads)
IC-B

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16053664 05/04/21
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here is my 550 gr .458 cast bullet shot in a earth burm at 200 yards
it was shot at 1560 fps out of my safari express winchester
the load was 40 gr of accurate 5744
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

by the way riflecranck I tried my inflated air bag has a recoil pad
worked great but it deflated each time must of had a defective valve

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16054395 05/04/21
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Dont be afraid to follow conventional practice and get a vest or PAST shoulder pad. Those allow more natural shooting,

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16056612 05/05/21
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I have a past but the air bag was much more effective
will try to fix the valve
its a air bag use in construction to level door of window when installing them
it has a small pump to increase the pressure
I inflated it about 1/2 inch and it really took up the recoil
when pressing the rifle agains my shoulder it conform to it perfectly
will see what happens

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: CZ550] #16058228 05/05/21
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Sir Bob,
Good riddance to Old Arthur's visitation upon you very soon !
Originally Posted by CZ550

... Yes, recently I went on record as suggesting the three manufactured bullets I'd have on my bullet shelves if limited to that. And the 480gr DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) from Hornady would be the heavy. It shoots well from my current Ruger No.1 in .458 at 2353 fps (5900 ft-lbs) using 82 grains of H4895, WLRM primers, Rem brass, and 3.585" COL (corrected to MV). Temp @ 21C/70F ...
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

That is a great load to be sure, for the .458 WM+, bolt action or single shot.
My findings have always agreed closely with Bob's.
Even a SAAMI .458 WM restriction of 3.340" COL and way less than .458 Lott pressure max allows the 480-gr DGX to get well over 2200 fps in a 24" barrel,
and that is plenty for any big game needing a soft point.
The 480-gr DGS might be needed only if elephant are on the menu.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The shop mule used to assess loads to be used in sexier rifles:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: fourbore] #16058316 05/05/21
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fourbore,
Don't press the Hornady 325-gr FTX too hard. It might be an exploder like the Sierra 300-gr Pro-Hunter.


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16058347 05/05/21
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canuckistan,

That looks to be a superb load with the 550-gr WFNGC. What alloy is your bullet metal ?

Nice work with the pneumatic recoil reducer too.
I have two PAST pads of yore, a thin one and a thicker "Magnum" pad in shoulder harnesses.
My little block of high-density foam rubber about 1.75" thick (cut from a seat cushion) works much better at the bench,
and it stays at the bench so I do not walk around wearing a sissy pad for all to see at the public range.


Ron

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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16058391 05/05/21
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will have to try this high density foam rubber has recoil pad
my alloy is wheel weigh air cooled
lube is carnoba red
superb accuracy. 100 yards one to one and a half
200 yards 2 to 3 inch
what I have noticed the wind play with my bullet
I shot a group then the group move about 2 inches to the right
2 good group but 2 inches apart
will start cranking it up a bit every weeks to get used to the recoil

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16059030 05/05/21
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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
canuckistan,

That looks to be a superb load with the 550-gr WFNGC. What alloy is your bullet metal ?

Nice work with the pneumatic recoil reducer too.
I have two PAST pads of yore, a thin one and a thicker "Magnum" pad in shoulder harnesses.
My little block of high-density foam rubber about 1.75" thick (cut from a seat cushion) works much better at the bench,
and it stays at the bench so I do not walk around wearing a sissy pad for all to see at the public range.


I like the way you roll RC.


Semper Fi
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16062798 05/07/21
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Buy a donkey for those flowers, beretzs.
I really am working on the 250-grain monometal loads and the paper-patched BP loads ...


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Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16065226 05/07/21
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If i could only find a couple pounds of AA-2230 i could load up the "Brass In Waiting" with those fine 450gr TSX's Sir Ron graciously sent me, 2450 fps Buzzsaws waiting for meat!

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