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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16044512 05/01/21
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Steve,

I fold. You win.

Is that ".58 Roberts" a rimfire used in the earliest sort of muzzleloader conversions ?


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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16044561 05/01/21
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No, it is centerfire. It took a while to find a load it liked.
But it does well if I do my part. Here is a video I made at the range with it.

https://youtu.be/t151cMpjyxM

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16050882 05/03/21
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"Shooting the .58 Cal Remington Transformed Rifle"
Mighty cool, 492 grain Minies at supersonic.
But the .50-70 Gov't. came before that upstart of 1867.
I was bluffed on that last hand !

Cases for it are made from 24 ga. Magtech brass, sold here: https://www.ammunitionartifacts.com/unitedstatescartridgecases/58-caliber-roberts-conversion

"Only 5,000 Of These Rifles Were Manufactured By Providence Tool Company In 1869-1870 For The Roberts Breechloading Arms Co. Of New York City. The Design Was Patented By Brigadier General B.S. Roberts In 1867. They Were Originally Manufactured For The New York National Guard But Were Ultimately Sold To The State Of South Carolina After The Legislature In New York Failed To Appropriate The Necessary Funds. They Were Reportedly Used Until Around 1890.
Remington Arms Company also chambered their Rolling Block #1 Action In This Caliber Using Surplus Civil War Barrels."


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: gunner500] #16051320 05/03/21
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Originally Posted by gunner500
Many thanks Sir Ron, full disclosure on the rifle, many years ago a friend of Saint Bagwell and i gave me an 18 twist Shiloh standard weight barrel chambered in 45-70, i looked for an action to build a '74 Sharps on for hunting, but, after seeing Goldie Pedersoli, i was also looking for a Ruger #1 action to screw it too, but alas, it never came to pass.

About a month ago my dim bulb lit up a bit, i sent the barrel to JES for a .512" bore 30 twist chambered in 50-70 Govt, yesterday morning early i took the rifle and barrel to Steve Baldwins place up in Jones Ok, he installed the barrel for me, i now have a switch barrel set for the 45 and 50 Government on one rifle using the same forearm and mounting hardware, each barrel has it's on lever return spring and extractor, what a fun deal this will be.

LOL on the Sharpie point primer, look close down in the case in the photo, see the King of Clubs playing card wad? guess what will be saved and be in the chamber come game day?............i think it kind of fits.

I cast these bullets relatively hard at a guesstimated 12 to 1 alloy, i've heard stories of the 50's not penetrating, hence my first foray into the 50 was 22 twist and 750 grains, they penetrate like a freight train loaded with pig iron, so as 50 cal bullet weight gets lighter i tread lighter, i want this little bullet to hold it's shape and penetrate for all it's worth, even if i run it into the side of a Buffalo someday. cool

Speaking of 50-70-530 Supersonic........is this a pretty good representative load for the 50-70? i have never studied other weights and velocities, just knew up front i wanted at least 1200 fps with this bullet to give it a solid chance to overcome the resistance of it's diameter and plow on through.

Thanks again Sir Ron.
Very nice. Years ago, I acquired an original Sharps 1859 Conversion Carbine in 50-70. I bought a Lyman mold and cast some bullets and bought some Bell brass from an outfit in Sand Point, ID. I filled the cases up with Ffg giving no thought to needing to drop tube the charges, as I didn't have the equipment and didn't know enough to do it. Loading the cases with standard smokeless equipment, I then headed out and blasted some targets. Deeming the accuracy "good enough", I took the thing deer hunting. Re-creating in reality, a recurring dream, a very decent buck came right up to my stand and I could NOT get the trigger to pull. Buck fever? I don't think so. It just would not pull! He ran off unscathed. A couple of days later I touched one off at a bigger buck quite a ways off and didn't hit him. The flash was very impressive though.

The gun left in some forgotten trade. Wish I had a pic of it. I still have some of the ammo as well as the die set and other stuff.

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16051619 05/03/21
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Steve thanks for the vid. that is a cool old rifle

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16053272 05/04/21
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I have owned a couple of original 50-70 guns. A Springield 1871, a NY rolling block carbine, and a Sharps conversion carbine. The serial number of the Sharps is not speciically listed but is within a 20 gun block issued to the 10th Ill. Vol Cav in 1863
The 1871 was just too big to carry in the woods with 36" barrel. The RB carbine kicked terribly. The Sharps is still in the safe and sees a day or two afield every deer season. I hate cleaning cases so I shoot AA2015 loads.
Not a great gun or dropping deer where they stand as the big lead bullet, even cast at 20-1 or 40-1 alloy, just punches right through them. But they don't run far.
I missed a Remington musketoon a few months back that I would have loved to own and hunt with.
The Sharps always attracts attention at the range

Last edited by WStrayer; 05/04/21.
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16054322 05/04/21
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On the short end of the stick...

I've been making large bore reloadable rimfire brass from centerfire cases lately. I had a damaged 50 cal centerfire case, (Starline .56-50 I think) laying around. So I got wondering if there was a .50 rimfire case that I could make from it. A quick look at COTW revealed that a .50 navy rimfire pistol cartridge for the m1865 navy rolling block pistol was short enough to make from the damaged case I had. So just for fun, I set out to make one.

The original cartridge is similar in diameter at the rim and base as the 50-70 and other. 50 cartridges of the era. But the case length is .850" - .860". So I trimmed this one to .850", then converted the case from centerfire to rimfire.

It was originally loaded with a short, 290gr bullet over 23gr of black powder. Digging through my 50 cal bullets I found a Lyman 515139 bullet weighing about 340gr. It looked pretty close, but was too long and heavy. So it was chucked in the lathe and the bottom band and grease groove were turned off. This resulted in a pretty usable substitute weighing 285gr.

Unfortunately I have no pistol to shoot it in, but it looks impressive :-)

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16054899 05/04/21
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The first post Civil War musket to cartridge conversions were .58 rim fire. That lead to the 1866, the 1868, 1869, and 1870 Trapdoors. All in 50-70.
Several.years ago I actually handled a .58 RF at a gun show.

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: DigitalDan] #16055521 05/04/21
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Thanks for the tip Dan.


Dang Riflecrank, you guys are having too much fun here, is that the Rough and Ready sight on that Roller Saint Bagwell used to speak about?

I've had a slight delay, i need to get back and file the factory Shiloh front sight blade down on the 50-70 to proper height, then make a file cut copper penny front sight, see what the ladder tells me out to around 300 yards or so for sight correlation marks, i think my load with the 530gr greaser at 1250 will still lay a pretty good whop on critters to 300.


Trump Won!
Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: EthanEdwards] #16055534 05/04/21
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Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by gunner500
Many thanks Sir Ron, full disclosure on the rifle, many years ago a friend of Saint Bagwell and i gave me an 18 twist Shiloh standard weight barrel chambered in 45-70, i looked for an action to build a '74 Sharps on for hunting, but, after seeing Goldie Pedersoli, i was also looking for a Ruger #1 action to screw it too, but alas, it never came to pass.

About a month ago my dim bulb lit up a bit, i sent the barrel to JES for a .512" bore 30 twist chambered in 50-70 Govt, yesterday morning early i took the rifle and barrel to Steve Baldwins place up in Jones Ok, he installed the barrel for me, i now have a switch barrel set for the 45 and 50 Government on one rifle using the same forearm and mounting hardware, each barrel has it's on lever return spring and extractor, what a fun deal this will be.

LOL on the Sharpie point primer, look close down in the case in the photo, see the King of Clubs playing card wad? guess what will be saved and be in the chamber come game day?............i think it kind of fits.

I cast these bullets relatively hard at a guesstimated 12 to 1 alloy, i've heard stories of the 50's not penetrating, hence my first foray into the 50 was 22 twist and 750 grains, they penetrate like a freight train loaded with pig iron, so as 50 cal bullet weight gets lighter i tread lighter, i want this little bullet to hold it's shape and penetrate for all it's worth, even if i run it into the side of a Buffalo someday. cool

Speaking of 50-70-530 Supersonic........is this a pretty good representative load for the 50-70? i have never studied other weights and velocities, just knew up front i wanted at least 1200 fps with this bullet to give it a solid chance to overcome the resistance of it's diameter and plow on through.

Thanks again Sir Ron.
Very nice. Years ago, I acquired an original Sharps 1859 Conversion Carbine in 50-70. I bought a Lyman mold and cast some bullets and bought some Bell brass from an outfit in Sand Point, ID. I filled the cases up with Ffg giving no thought to needing to drop tube the charges, as I didn't have the equipment and didn't know enough to do it. Loading the cases with standard smokeless equipment, I then headed out and blasted some targets. Deeming the accuracy "good enough", I took the thing deer hunting. Re-creating in reality, a recurring dream, a very decent buck came right up to my stand and I could NOT get the trigger to pull. Buck fever? I don't think so. It just would not pull! He ran off unscathed. A couple of days later I touched one off at a bigger buck quite a ways off and didn't hit him. The flash was very impressive though.

The gun left in some forgotten trade. Wish I had a pic of it. I still have some of the ammo as well as the die set and other stuff.


LOL, damn the luck on the buck EE, and yes, having the right tools, powder compression die in this case may have made all the difference, you may still be shooting that old Smoke Belcher. smile


Trump Won!
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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: gunner500] #16056512 05/04/21
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Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by gunner500
Many thanks Sir Ron, full disclosure on the rifle, many years ago a friend of Saint Bagwell and i gave me an 18 twist Shiloh standard weight barrel chambered in 45-70, i looked for an action to build a '74 Sharps on for hunting, but, after seeing Goldie Pedersoli, i was also looking for a Ruger #1 action to screw it too, but alas, it never came to pass.

About a month ago my dim bulb lit up a bit, i sent the barrel to JES for a .512" bore 30 twist chambered in 50-70 Govt, yesterday morning early i took the rifle and barrel to Steve Baldwins place up in Jones Ok, he installed the barrel for me, i now have a switch barrel set for the 45 and 50 Government on one rifle using the same forearm and mounting hardware, each barrel has it's on lever return spring and extractor, what a fun deal this will be.

LOL on the Sharpie point primer, look close down in the case in the photo, see the King of Clubs playing card wad? guess what will be saved and be in the chamber come game day?............i think it kind of fits.

I cast these bullets relatively hard at a guesstimated 12 to 1 alloy, i've heard stories of the 50's not penetrating, hence my first foray into the 50 was 22 twist and 750 grains, they penetrate like a freight train loaded with pig iron, so as 50 cal bullet weight gets lighter i tread lighter, i want this little bullet to hold it's shape and penetrate for all it's worth, even if i run it into the side of a Buffalo someday. cool

Speaking of 50-70-530 Supersonic........is this a pretty good representative load for the 50-70? i have never studied other weights and velocities, just knew up front i wanted at least 1200 fps with this bullet to give it a solid chance to overcome the resistance of it's diameter and plow on through.

Thanks again Sir Ron.
Very nice. Years ago, I acquired an original Sharps 1859 Conversion Carbine in 50-70. I bought a Lyman mold and cast some bullets and bought some Bell brass from an outfit in Sand Point, ID. I filled the cases up with Ffg giving no thought to needing to drop tube the charges, as I didn't have the equipment and didn't know enough to do it. Loading the cases with standard smokeless equipment, I then headed out and blasted some targets. Deeming the accuracy "good enough", I took the thing deer hunting. Re-creating in reality, a recurring dream, a very decent buck came right up to my stand and I could NOT get the trigger to pull. Buck fever? I don't think so. It just would not pull! He ran off unscathed. A couple of days later I touched one off at a bigger buck quite a ways off and didn't hit him. The flash was very impressive though.

The gun left in some forgotten trade. Wish I had a pic of it. I still have some of the ammo as well as the die set and other stuff.


LOL, damn the luck on the buck EE, and yes, having the right tools, powder compression die in this case may have made all the difference, you may still be shooting that old Smoke Belcher. smile
I've got all the right tools now. Those loads shot fine. It was either me or the gun itself. It would have went down the trail anyway. It's one I wish I had back, but not at the expense of my current arsenal.

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: Riflecrank] #16056838 05/05/21
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Try Buffalo Arms for drop tube, over powder wads, and power compressor

Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: DigitalDan] #16057921 05/05/21
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Bronze wool is a no-no according to Saint Bagwell:
Originally Posted by DigitalDan

[Linked Image from crossingsinc.com]

Gleaned from an internet reply to one of my questions in 2007, I copied it to a Word document
and disturbingly forgot some of the details.
Do not use OOOO extra fine steel wool nor bronze wool.
Use OO steel wool by the Bill Bagwell Technique,
if you fail to prevent the need for it:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: gunner500] #16057988 05/05/21
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Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks for the tip Dan.


Dang Riflecrank, you guys are having too much fun here, is that the Rough and Ready sight on that Roller Saint Bagwell used to speak about?

I've had a slight delay, i need to get back and file the factory Shiloh front sight blade down on the 50-70 to proper height, then make a file cut copper penny front sight, see what the ladder tells me out to around 300 yards or so for sight correlation marks, i think my load with the 530gr greaser at 1250 will still lay a pretty good whop on critters to 300.


Yes, Rough and Ready rear and the Beach front flipper combo.
I cannot file that front on mine.
Need to try your Sharps BP load in my Roller with a 535-grainer, .509" to .510"-sized of 1:20 alloy and grease-lubed.
For smokeless, a grain or two more H322 with my powder-coat-painted, hardened .512"/ 680-grain Hoch, or the 650-grain Saeco.
Bill told me this about shooting smokeless loads in BPCR rifles:

"Smokeless IS good clean fun in these rifles, and I wouldn't call it sacrilege.
But it is not the whole experience. By so doing you are simply shooting a single shot rifle--not a BPCR.
It's sort of like taking your sister to the prom.
You are at the prom, with a girl, but you are not getting the whole prom package."

I always was a bit backward socially.


Ron

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Re: 50-70 Govt Granddaddy of them all for sport or battle [Re: EthanEdwards] #16065199 05/07/21
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10-4 EE, understood, my blackpowder rifles will be the very last ones to leave, shooting them from my custom power chair with sandbags on the dash may be a bit tiresome when i'm 150 years old ; ]

Good stuff Riflecrank, Thanks, have heard many good things about the Rough and Ready, LOL on the rest, socially challenged myself, it's all good.


Trump Won!
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