Dwayne, what is very clear is that the Kingdom that He calls his followers to proclaim is not of this world. God is not political and could care less about my politics or your politics. Jesus died for people, not politics. What the scripture is VERY clear about is that His Good News is proclaimed, and that we ought to "become all things to all men that by all means we might save some." For the church of Jesus Christ this should not be a nationalized/political thing... if we really care about His Kingdom we should ignore the politics of men and proclaim His truth. Remember how Jesus told His disciples to "render to Caesar what is due to Caesar"? There is no recognition of right or wrong there, just that we render to government what is asked because "we are not of this world." Our citizenship is not in Canada or the USA but in Heaven.
But the scripture always runs cross-wise to what we humans think... this thread is a perfect example.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I have no doubt that if they tried that with the pastors at our church they’d need a large response from the jackbooted thugs because the entire congregation would stand with our pastors. Our rural church is full of farmers, ranchers, cowboys and other salt of the earth types. I’d wager that from my observations that at least half the congregation carries. Our local deputies are good guys that I doubt would try such a despicable and anti-American thing as entering a sacred house of worship to arrest pastors preaching to their flock. I’d happily defend my pastors from the mask Nazis.
No police, government thug or agents of the government have any right to enter a house of worship for the purpose of arrest. Church is a sacred sanctuary for all. I’d hope that any government agent that violates that assumes room temperature ASAP.....that includes cops!!!
How many mosques did they storm in the days and years following 9/11? Mosques are off limits but Christian churches are free fire zones?
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
Brad, with all due respect — I say this kindly and don’t at all mean to say you are not a faithful believer — but your post sounds like the first lecture of the year, on “what Christianity is”, as a professor of religion in a secular university.
In reality, a Christian’s response is just not quite as monolithic as you would make it seem in every circumstance and region; and personally. There are certainly valid differences of opinion and many equally valid questions surrounding the whole pandemic scenario, north or south, and the various regional and federal governments’ responses to it, whether one of overt imposition or of making recommendations but respecting individual rights.
In the context of increasing personal depression, suicides, personal economic loss, and alcoholism; not to mention the intellectual and social loss of the kids in being shut out of schools, it is a very reasonable and faith-led response of Christians to determine that the spiritual needs of their brothers and sisters is greater than their secular powers’ decision to shut them down over an already very dubious disease, which has already raised suspicions of their motivation..
While all of us as true Christians believe all authority is given of God, so do we believe there is a point where the believer’s conscious before God supersedes that governing authority.
AcesNeights; Good afternoon to you my friend, I hope the day's bright and clear down in your part of the west and all in your fine family are well.
As far as I am aware, the Edmonton arrest was made outside the church and the Calgary one was made on what appeared to be a fairly busy section of divided highway.
That said, the Calgary pastor involved did have Calgary Police and health officials enter the church at the end of a service previously and he made the news when he quite forcibly ushered them out.
Again to be extremely clear, I do not have all the details or better said many details at all on either situation.
I find it interesting however that many secular journalists and commentators are condemning the actions as overstepping on the part of the 2 Alberta city governments.
These are in many ways truly interesting times Aces and there are a lot of balls in the air up here as well as everywhere I'd imagine. Where they'll land I'm surely not privy to, you know?
As a servant, I'm doing my level best to discern what my part is supposed to be, which as we can ascertain even here, isn't always simple or clear.
A couple of churches ended up in court here in BC and lost . The judge said yes it was restriction on freedom but necessary. Judges tend to fellow one another. Judges in Canada are fairly independent of politics.
Dwayne, what is very clear is that the Kingdom that He calls his followers to proclaim is not of this world. God is not political and could care less about my politics or your politics. Jesus died for people, not politics. What the scripture is VERY clear about is that His Good News is proclaimed, and that we ought to "become all things to all men that by all means we might save some." For the church of Jesus Christ this should not be a nationalized/political thing... if we really care about His Kingdom we should ignore the politics of men and proclaim His truth. Remember how Jesus told His disciples to "render to Caesar what is due to Caesar"? There is no recognition of right or wrong there, just that we render to government what is asked because "we are not of this world." Our citizenship is not in Canada or the USA but in Heaven.
But the scripture always runs cross-wise to what we humans think... this thread is a perfect example.
Brad; Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
For sure there's very little in your thoughts that I disagree with.
If we believe that we're just passing through as servants of a Living God, then indeed we're merely strangers in a strange land.
That said, we're each called to serve in different capacities and sometimes that capacity will be a leadership role.
While I have no way of quantifying this Brad, I believe you'd be surprised how non-political many and perhaps even most Canadian churches purposely stay. The denomination I was part of the board on and a member for decades took direct intentional steps to remain that way - which I supported and continue to support by the way.
That all taken into account still does not mean that we'll be called to worship in the same way. Some of us are the "be still and know that I am God" types - the stained glass windows, pews and even a written liturgy sooths us and gives chaotic life order and meaning.
Then some like some friends of mine are more in the "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" camp Brad and so help me it works for them.
In my immediate family I have a Rev. Dr. of Theology who is an honest to goodness Bible scholar - reads Greek and Hebrew, as well as 3 other Reverends. That's only to say that even in that group there isn't 100% agreement on all things.
As I wrote in the thread to Aces, my struggle as a servant believer is trying to figure out what I - me personally today - am supposed to do and honestly that includes attempting to articulate a response in a social media thread.
Again, I appreciate the replies and exchange Brad. All the very best of our Lord's blessings to you and yours.
Dwayne, As always it’s great to hear from you. On a side note...your contributions to the grade school thread were wonderful. Your pictures were a great contribution and really stirred my memory.
Thanks for clearing up some of the finer points. I thought the Calgary incident happened in church. I suppose that while many cops aren’t the brightest bulbs they do possess an uncanny fear that is endemic to their “profession”. That fear is often what they use to justify their actions, at least on my side of the medicine line. 😁. I don’t buy into their fear and I don’t give them a pass for being chickenshit. I know what it’s like to be in their shoes since I did that job. Even when I wore the uniform I criticized the younger cops for using fear as their motivation. I’ve never been shy to tell anyone what I think but I’ve always stayed true to my principles. I suppose as I watched the new batches of recruits filter out of the academy I had enough foresight to know that these “guys” were NOT people I’d associate with so I happily resigned. I wasn’t willing to lower myself to the new standards that have rotted the respect that law enforcement once enjoyed. Being extremely handsome and intelligent (😁) I knew that I’d be just fine. My career as a firefighter/paramedic was much more rewarding and it reaffirmed my disgust for (most) cops. I lost more friends in firefighting than all our police departments combined during that period. I also realized that as the cops embraced fear and cowardice my colleagues in the fire department embraced courage and commitment to their fellow man. I felt closer to God during my years as a FF/paramedic than I’d ever felt as a cop. My shift mates were my family and I was theirs. We rendered help to EVERYONE EQUALLY irrespective of color, social status, etc and that at least felt like what God would want from me. We obviously worked closely with law enforcement on many calls which reinforced to me that I made the right choice for myself.
It stands to reason that they’d wait to execute their plan away from wrath of the parishioners. When you’re going to do something stupid, illegal or unconstitutional it’s best to have as few witnesses as possible, so in that respect the cops have become unusually intelligent when they’re doing wrong, something they no doubt learned from the criminals that they eventually emulated.
I’ve become disgusted and embarrassed by my government and the agents they employ. Over the past year I’ve felt as though I’m living in the twilight zone based on the egregious, illegal actions of my government and their proxies. Like you said....we live in interesting times, which I believe is an indictment and indication of just how far left we’ve strayed.
I generally stay away from the politics of my favorite neighbors since we certainly have our hands full down here. We can’t even vote freely anymore. Our politicians are chosen by the ruling elites, not by the citizens. This covid BS and the overreaction is unfortunately something that we both share which is why I replied. Whenever I see cops abusing their “power” I get mad, no matter whether it’s in Canada or down here. Abuse of power under threat of death is not a hallmark of freedom but until the paradigm shifts it will continue to dominate police departments everywhere.
Sorry for such a downer of a post.
All my best to you my friend.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
Aces; Thanks for the reply and once again the kind words contained in it.
I'm glad you enjoyed the photos and it stirred good memories for you as it did in me.
I'm often amazed at how we can recall a joke and chuckle, a wonderful moment and smile, but don't feel the pain from those times or at least not in the same way.
As I mentioned to Brad and to you too, I'm attempting to discern what my part in this interesting time might be.
Speaking personally, I can say that I've had enough life circumstances take place in my life that I don't believe in coincidences - well Aces they don't really work out mathematically either, you know?.
But all that to say I'm hoping and praying that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, if that makes sense?
Again thanks for the reply and background in your post and don't give a second thought to the tone of your post. Life isn't all sunny days and smelling the Antelope Brush in full bloom Aces - I suppose if it was then it wouldn't be special when that happens would it?
Libs everywhere drink the koolaid and hide. The Scandinavians last fall pushed their study which showed masks are worse for you than no mask. Several other studies including Sanford University just released one showing the same. Just relax and enjoy yourselves and it will be ok. Ed
It is quite simple to spout the same tired old tired and unfounded accusations.
"Oh, you disagree with me, therefore you are a liberal"
"Therefore you drank the kool-aid"
You have no idea who I am or what my politics are.
The truth is that I have been a gun owner and shooter since the early 1970s, and I have never voted liberal or NDP.
It's also easy to make stuff up and claim that it is fact.
Calgary, Alberta, RCMP officers finally arrested Arthur Pawlowski for holding services where nobody was wearing masks and where nobody was making the slightest effort to practice physical distancing, in accordance with provincial Covid19 laws.
This finally happened after this pastor flagrantly and repeatedly violated Provincial Covid19 laws.
The laws apply equally to all Albertans, businesses, social organizations, and all public places where people gather indoors.
Churches are not being targeted. The freedom to pray is not being infringed.
In the midst of a global pandemic nobody has a right to endanger human lives by spreading the disease because of a "sovereign citizen" belief that they can do whatever they damn well please.
You seem to be confusing the fundamental right to worship with the "freedom to pray". Worshiping is not synonymous with praying, though prayer can be a form of worship. Worshiping takes difference forms for different people, including gathering in congregations, and here the definition of "worship" matters.
Your last sentence leads me to believe that you are also missing the point of the debate, which is whether the right to be safe is more important than the right to worship. Your opinion is noted, but that position is certainly not unanimously shared by all reasonable, rational citizens.
Further, there is a more fundamental argument about whether the restrictions being imposed due to COVID represent a justified infringement on ANY fundamental rights, given the low morbidity and minor severity of the symptoms caused by the virus in the vast majority of cases.
The right to pray or worship or assemble does not give anyone the right to spread the disease to the general public.
Even if you could assemble, and risk only your own skins, you would still be placing a burden on hospitals and the healthcare system.
Furthermore, if 100 people pack themselves into a church without masks and only one of them is infected with Covid19, then many of those people present will be infected with the virus, and will then spread it to the general public, and in so doing be responsible for needless deaths and incapacitation.
And nobody is saying that you can not pray or worship. The province is however saying that you can't pack people in like sardines without masks in order to slow the spread of the disease.
Also, your claim that it is okay to spread the disease as long as only a minority of those infected die is both un-Christian, selfish, and disgusting.
Over a period of six decades I have watched people claim that nobody has any right to make them do anything if they don't want to. I have watched idiots protest and whine over non-smoking laws in restaurants, mandatory seat belt laws, and mandatory motorcycle helmet laws.
Their mantra is: "I want what I want because I want it, and screw you if you won't let me do it, no matter stupid and selfish and dangerous it is."
So, beach and whine all that you like. You didn't win those fights and you won't win this one.
I absolutely know whatcha mean which is why I think I can relate to your posts with such clarity.
You, like me, remember the good times from days long gone and are blessed to focus on them rather than the sad times. I was always blessed and I recognize that. I grew up with a mom and dad that were excellent examples for us kids. We have a big close family still to this day because of the values they imparted, the examples they set, the love they showed and the forgiveness they gave. Even with mom gone now her spirit lives through her surviving children. If I think real hard I can remember the sad times. I remember like it was yesterday finding my little brother dead and the call to mom and dad to please come home right away. The odd thing is that I thanked God for answering my prayers, prayers I’d been asking for years.....that when the time came that he died that I’d be the one to find him. I did not want my parents to have the their final memory of their son to be finding him crumpled and cold. So even in the bad times I was lucky to find peace. I’ve always felt like my relationship with God was a close and personal one, partly because he always seemed to answer my most important prayers.
At 50 I figure I have more sunrises behind me than in front of me, that the sun is lower in my western sky doesn’t worry me because I’ve been blessed beyond my wildest dreams. I will admit though Dwayne that watching our aging parents die is every bit as tough as I imagined it when I was younger but even in the face of such loss I feel blessed to have had them for as long as I have.
My wife grew up with a family that accepted all religions but didn’t practice any except for my MIL who is Buddhist. I use to pray that my wife would eventually work her way to God and my prayers were again answered. She loves going to church and to Bible study with me. Her entire family has found the Good News and for me that’s as good as anything I could’ve hoped for because the time we’ve spent together has been so amazing that eternity together sounds perfect.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
Saddle gun, Are you saying that you have a personal right to not get sick?....because you DO NOT! If you live in fear then you should lock yourself up in your house.
Covid like most illnesses generally kill the weak just as it’s intended to do in nature.
You don’t get any guarantees that you won’t get sick and to blame anyone for getting you sick is cowardly. Take some personal responsibility for yourself and quit expecting everyone to cater to the weakest. Illness is meant to weed the weak out of the gene pool. 😉......it’s biology 101.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
Brad, with all due respect — I say this kindly and don’t at all mean to say you are not a faithful believer — but your post sounds like the first lecture of the year, on “what Christianity is”, as a professor of religion in a secular university.
In reality, a Christian’s response is just not quite as monolithic as you would make it seem in every circumstance and region; and personally. There are certainly valid differences of opinion and many equally valid questions surrounding the whole pandemic scenario, north or south, and the various regional and federal governments’ responses to it, whether one of overt imposition or of making recommendations but respecting individual rights.
In the context of increasing personal depression, suicides, personal economic loss, and alcoholism; not to mention the intellectual and social loss of the kids in being shut out of schools, it is a very reasonable and faith-led response of Christians to determine that the spiritual needs of their brothers and sisters is greater than their secular powers’ decision to shut them down over an already very dubious disease, which has already raised suspicions of their motivation..
While all of us as true Christians believe all authority is given of God, so do we believe there is a point where the believer’s conscious before God supersedes that governing authority.
Calgary, Alberta, RCMP officers finally arrested Arthur Pawlowski for holding services where nobody was wearing masks and where nobody was making the slightest effort to practice physical distancing, in accordance with provincial Covid19 laws.
This finally happened after this pastor flagrantly and repeatedly violated Provincial Covid19 laws.
The laws apply equally to all Albertans, businesses, social organizations, and all public places where people gather indoors.
Churches are not being targeted. The freedom to pray is not being infringed.
In the midst of a global pandemic nobody has a right to endanger human lives by spreading the disease because of a "sovereign citizen" belief that they can do whatever they damn well please.
You seem to be confusing the fundamental right to worship with the "freedom to pray". Worshiping is not synonymous with praying, though prayer can be a form of worship. Worshiping takes difference forms for different people, including gathering in congregations, and here the definition of "worship" matters.
Your last sentence leads me to believe that you are also missing the point of the debate, which is whether the right to be safe is more important than the right to worship. Your opinion is noted, but that position is certainly not unanimously shared by all reasonable, rational citizens.
Further, there is a more fundamental argument about whether the restrictions being imposed due to COVID represent a justified infringement on ANY fundamental rights, given the low morbidity and minor severity of the symptoms caused by the virus in the vast majority of cases.
Also, your claim that it is okay to spread the disease as long as only a minority of those infected die is both un-Christian, selfish, and disgusting.
I didn't say that at all. I said that it is debatable whether the restrictions on liberty are justified. Have you ever given someone the Cold, the Flu, or some other "common" sickness? If so, there is a chance that another person got it from them, and died. People die from the Flu just like they die from COVID. Yet we would think it inappropriate for the government to shut society down because people might spread the Flu and a few might die.
My point is that life is full of risks, and if we want to have a free society with individual liberties, then we have to accept the fact that our actions affect others and put them at risk. That's just part of life. You could cause a fatal car accident some day. Are you okay with choosing to drive among your fellow citizens knowing, as you put it, that "only a minority of those...die" as a result of your choice? Would you call that "un-Christian, selfish, and disgusting"?
And BTW, ad-hominem attacks don't do anything to advance your argument. I'm not trying to attack you personally, just discuss the topic at hand.
Originally Posted by saddlegun
Their mantra is: "I want what I want because I want it, and screw you if you won't let me do it, no matter stupid and selfish and dangerous it is."
So, beach and whine all that you like. You didn't win those fights and you won't win this one.
Don't lump me in with those people. That's never been my attitude in life. In a free society we expect certain individual liberties and accept restrictions on other liberties. A society doesn't work without accepting some limitations. We are not free, for example, to infringe on our neighbours' rights (murder, as an extreme example). So I also reject the notion that individuals can do ANYTHING they want, simply because they want to.
What about the fake protests last summer where there was no social distancing or masks?
Originally Posted by saddlegun
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by saddlegun
Let's be clear.
Calgary, Alberta, RCMP officers finally arrested Arthur Pawlowski for holding services where nobody was wearing masks and where nobody was making the slightest effort to practice physical distancing, in accordance with provincial Covid19 laws.
This finally happened after this pastor flagrantly and repeatedly violated Provincial Covid19 laws.
The laws apply equally to all Albertans, businesses, social organizations, and all public places where people gather indoors.
Churches are not being targeted. The freedom to pray is not being infringed.
In the midst of a global pandemic nobody has a right to endanger human lives by spreading the disease because of a "sovereign citizen" belief that they can do whatever they damn well please.
You seem to be confusing the fundamental right to worship with the "freedom to pray". Worshiping is not synonymous with praying, though prayer can be a form of worship. Worshiping takes difference forms for different people, including gathering in congregations, and here the definition of "worship" matters.
Your last sentence leads me to believe that you are also missing the point of the debate, which is whether the right to be safe is more important than the right to worship. Your opinion is noted, but that position is certainly not unanimously shared by all reasonable, rational citizens.
Further, there is a more fundamental argument about whether the restrictions being imposed due to COVID represent a justified infringement on ANY fundamental rights, given the low morbidity and minor severity of the symptoms caused by the virus in the vast majority of cases.
The right to pray or worship or assemble does not give anyone the right to spread the disease to the general public.
Even if you could assemble, and risk only your own skins, you would still be placing a burden on hospitals and the healthcare system.
Furthermore, if 100 people pack themselves into a church without masks and only one of them is infected with Covid19, then many of those people present will be infected with the virus, and will then spread it to the general public, and in so doing be responsible for needless deaths and incapacitation.
And nobody is saying that you can not pray or worship. The province is however saying that you can't pack people in like sardines without masks in order to slow the spread of the disease.
Also, your claim that it is okay to spread the disease as long as only a minority of those infected die is both un-Christian, selfish, and disgusting.
Over a period of six decades I have watched people claim that nobody has any right to make them do anything if they don't want to. I have watched idiots protest and whine over non-smoking laws in restaurants, mandatory seat belt laws, and mandatory motorcycle helmet laws.
Their mantra is: "I want what I want because I want it, and screw you if you won't let me do it, no matter stupid and selfish and dangerous it is."
So, beach and whine all that you like. You didn't win those fights and you won't win this one.
Dwayne, what is very clear is that the Kingdom that He calls his followers to proclaim is not of this world. God is not political and could care less about my politics or your politics. Jesus died for people, not politics. What the scripture is VERY clear about is that His Good News is proclaimed, and that we ought to "become all things to all men that by all means we might save some." For the church of Jesus Christ this should not be a nationalized/political thing... if we really care about His Kingdom we should ignore the politics of men and proclaim His truth. Remember how Jesus told His disciples to "render to Caesar what is due to Caesar"? There is no recognition of right or wrong there, just that we render to government what is asked because "we are not of this world." Our citizenship is not in Canada or the USA but in Heaven.
But the scripture always runs cross-wise to what we humans think... this thread is a perfect example.
I guess only those in the Christian faith violate pandemic restrictions . Your secular bias and anti science , anti christian bigotry is very evident.
Anyone who thinks wearing a mask is going to save them from the China flu is an idiot. How the he'll do you keep your hands away from your mouth when wearing a mask?
George; Good morning to you sir, I hope that all things within your control are going well and that all your family are healthy.
Thanks for posting that link, it's a thought provoking viewpoint for sure.
As I've suggested in a previous post or two, there's a lot of balls in the air or better said forces at play here and it's tough for me to clearly see who is motivating whom many times.
This young fellow is a Montreal lawyer who has a channel I've been watching for some time now as he breaks down cases in the news in such a way that lay folk like myself can wrap my head around it.
He is, I'll hasten to add, self admittedly not religious in any way and honestly not always that right leaning on all topics, but overall he's attempts to be balanced in explaining what the ramifications of the case being discussed might be down the road.
I'll note that there's pretty much always ramifications down the road to anything we do isn't there George? Including sitting by and doing nothing I'd opine.
Anyways, here's David Frei from Montreal.
Thanks again for the morning reading material George and all the best of the Lord's blessings to you and your family.
