Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Buy a donkey to you too, Sir Jerry.
You and Bill Bagwell have taught me a lot betwixt you.
I have been farming my no-cattle, all-hat ranch too much lately, barely able to keep the weeds mowed due to so much rain.
Soon I will make a day of it, home on the range, where the BP and the smokeless play.
Paper-patched 530-grainer in the .45-2.6" SWT with BP
and Monometal 250-grainer in the .458 WM with smokeless.

LOL, Nice Sir Ron, as the river reeds gave way to the wind last Oct 9th in the Mbarangandu Game Reserve, Tanzania i let loose a 750gr TSX at a sight regulating 2076 fps into an old river Dagga Boy at 16 yards from a 577 double, i saw and heard the pain that buzzsaw caused the old beast as it entered his left last rib at a hard quarter away, he hit the sand and began his death bellow before i could get the sight back on him quickly moving to my left for a solid through both shoulders.

I have no doubt the 450gr TSX at 2450 fps would produce the same from the Great 458 Win Mag+............with the added bonus of three rounds held quickly in reserve.

Sir Ron;

Thanks for your well wishes, that seems to be working! Also, I took your advice to include the 480 DGX as good moose or bear medicine at close range in my blog yesterday, which I would have done out of conviction anyway -- and probably not at max MV.

I once shot a good bear frontally (actually I shot three in a row that way over three seasons) using a hardcast 465gr at 70 yards. That bullet has the exact diameter meplat as the 480 DGX. It left the muzzle of a single-shot NEF .45-70 at 1900 fps and that bear dropped so fast in tall grass that I lost sight of it when the rifle came out of recoil. The heart was jello and the bullet never found, nor any piece thereof. I'd consider the 480 DGX more of the same. It would never need 2350 fps for anything, except possibly for range purposes -- at least not anything soft skinned this side of 200 yards.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

No doubt. Perfect.
Be careful with those 500-gr TBSS at 2350 fps if herd shooting and you do not want to pay for two with only one shot.
I once bagged a cape buffalo using a .500 Mbogo.
One shot killed it at about 75 yards, broke the onside left humerus (stoutest bone in the buffalo) and passed through the heart, did not exit.







The second shot at a bull on that hunt in Tanzania was on a hairbrained command from the PH for me to shoot a bull when he ran through an opening 150 yards away,



while I was perched on the side of a termite mound with wobbly-twig shooting sticks that collapsed as I shot.
Thus I was caught off balance twice in that incident.
First for undertaking it at all.
One drop of blood was found, believed to have come from a buttock graze wound on the bull.



I felt bad then, but hey, it saved me another +$5000 taxidermy charge and someone else was picking up the tab for the B-Team PH and trophy fees.
Sometimes it would be better to ignore a suggestion from a PH, especially if you are paying him.

My first cape buffalo in Botswana also bucked like a rodeo bull when hit through the heart and the onside, left humerus at 50 yards with a .416 Rigby.
He launched straight up on three unbroken legs also.



A termite mound in Botswana, where no shooting sticks were set upon the slope:



That was a 380-gr GSC FN solid at 2506 fps MV that exited and probably passed through several leadwood tree trunks after that.
The Tanzanian bull was taken with a .510-cal., 450-gr GSC HV (soft) throttled back to 2650 fps MV instead of +2800 fps,
because it shot 0.75 MOA at the slower velocity instead of 1.5 MOA at top end.
Thus, not entirely because I am a recoil wimp.

The .458-caliber 450-grain TSX at 2450 fps would be the best insurance policy,
6,000 ft-lbs is plenty !
Most likely to kill one bull with one shot and not wound any other fauna and flora.
And such a trim and handy package is a .458 Winchester Magnum M70 !

Good to hear you are on the mend, Sir Bob.
Your experience proves the teaching of Saint Bagwell that softcast lead .458"/ 480-grain FN at 1300 fps MV with a BPCR will deliver the mail.
Either 66 grains of FFFg GOEX in a .45-70 or, for the smokeless crowd, just 38.5 grains of IMR-3031. He recommended both loads.
480-grainer of harder alloy at faster velocity, within reason: What is not to like ?
That 480-grain DGX will work in either no-throat .45-70 lever action or .458 Winchester Magnum.
Perfect for all single shots at whatever COL you like.
Do your part and one shot is all you will need anyway.

It is a foregone conclusion that paper patch and BP will work just fine in the .458 Winchester Magnum,
the most versatile sporting rifle ever:

Ron,
Love the details and the great pictures as always, and appreciate all the work it takes to produce such quality. Glad to see the body of knowledge about the great and mighty 458WM and cast bullets grow. Of all the myths perpetuated towards the 458WM, none was greater than "it's not a good cast bullet cartridge." Not true of course. All Cast shooting contains a fair bit of Magic to make things work, just go read the BPCR guys process and trials to get through a match and season of shooting.
Hunting with a 458WM and Cast in my opinion is a breeze to accomplish. First of all, we don't need 0.3 MOA to kill a whitetail or anything else. A nice round group of one's loads that land in the same place in a sized equal to or smaller than the kill zone at the distance you want to shoot is all we need. Just like all shooting, one's group at 50 or 100 does not run linear as distance continues. Question is; "does my rifle and load produce a first and second shot ability to land in the kill zone at the range I want to shoot?" If yes is the answer then we are good to go. Mr. Sharpsguy was an exceptional shooter first and foremost and his equipment was built and tested to maximize his God given talent. His results were first the result of his talent and then his equipment.
Your notes above on Cast bullets is a good guide for anyone and any 458WM. I would add, "use a good flat meplat" on hunting loads to reduce or eliminate tumbling and increase penetration and get after them. From 405 grains on up as far as your barrel will stabilize in both air and game is all you have to worry about. A good BIG flat Meplat does a lot to help both causes.
Best regards sir,
Fury01

Sir Dennis, you have always been a stalwart in the Crusade for Truth.
Buy a donkey for the flowers.
Doodling the pictures allows me to see things I might miss and clarifies my thinking.
Allow me to comment on your redletter words, well said:

Of all the myths perpetuated towards the 458WM, none was greater than "it's not a good cast bullet cartridge." Not true of course. All Cast shooting contains a fair bit of Magic to make things work, just go read the BPCR guys process and trials to get through a match and season of shooting.

Sharpsguy, Saint Bagwell, called it finding the correct duck feather with which to tickle the load.
Smokeless loads with cast bullets are easier to tickle with a greater variety of bullets, alloys, and velocities in a .458 WM, not to mention the huge array of powders !
Getting paper-patched, soft lead alloys to work properly in the .458 WM throat is a worthy endeavor with BP, to turn the .458 WM into a BPCR.
Here is what I think about it:

In a no-throat BPCR, making the patched bullet diameter 0.001" smaller than bore diameter allows it to work as a bore rider over its entire length,
allows longest possible seating.
But the soft alloy, ideally no harder than 1:20 tin/lead, about BHN 10, allows it to bump up with the explosive smack of BP on its rear end,
getting it started into the rifling with some obturation into the grooves.
The obturation continues to increase over about the first 10 inches of rifling travel and then is done.
Smokeless does not smack, due to a more gradual, progressive burn as the bullet travels down the barrel.
The wide-based leade of the .458 WM throat allows no initial resistance to a bore-riding, paper-patched bullet that is just starting to obturate.
This reduces the ability of even BP to swell the bullet's diameter any further, so it skids on the rifling, gas blows by, the bullet gets inadequate spin and keyholes.
Starting with a paper-patched bullet of groove diameter allows a better start at obturation,
and a better start allows better final obturation of the bullet during that first 10 inches of travel in the barrel.

Hunting with a 458WM and Cast in my opinion is a breeze to accomplish. First of all, we don't need 0.3 MOA to kill a whitetail or anything else. A nice round group of one's loads that land in the same place in a sized equal to or smaller than the kill zone at the distance you want to shoot is all we need. Just like all shooting, one's group at 50 or 100 does not run linear as distance continues. Question is; "does my rifle and load produce a first and second shot ability to land in the kill zone at the range I want to shoot?" If yes is the answer then we are good to go. Mr. Sharpsguy was an exceptional shooter first and foremost and his equipment was built and tested to maximize his God given talent. His results were first the result of his talent and then his equipment.
Your notes above on Cast bullets is a good guide for anyone and any 458WM. I would add, "use a good flat meplat" on hunting loads to reduce or eliminate tumbling and increase penetration and get after them. From 405 grains on up as far as your barrel will stabilize in both air and game is all you have to worry about. A good BIG flat Meplat does a lot to help both causes.
Best regards sir,
Fury01

AMEN !
FN for clean kills.
Rounded and pointy for punching paper and steel or wounding at longer ranges,
unless you are gifted enough to elevate and hold into the wind like Saint Bagwell.
He could do it all with an FN .458/ 480-grainer softcast (50:50 WW/Pb) at 1300 fps.
Trapdoor ballistics !

Below is my latest photo-assisted thinking on cast bullet loads in the .458 WM.

Paper patched with BP for most fun:



Hardcast and lubed with PC paint or grease for the greatest ballistic versatility, impossible in a .458 Lott:

Latest monometal-smokeless adventure coming up for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:









Above is a casual gathering of Knights of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Lottites are the "enemies."
What are we ? Barbarians ?

Sir Ron, fantastic pics and Buffalo, no place on earth like Africa, do you think you;ll ever make it back over for more hunting?

A Big 10-Roger on the 500gr TBSS's and herd animals, i bet with that hard bronze cap that thing is a near indestructible missile, especially at 2350 fps from the Great 458 Win Mag+, have no doubts on anything with the 450gr TSX short of Ele head shots, it would most likely sheer the petals becoming a solid and work there too.

Long Live "The Crusade!"

Sir Jerry,

I would love to hunt Africa again if I could do it with less of the sissy luxury stuff and coddling doled out to the princes of the world.
Elephant with a .458 Winchester Magnum would be the mustard on my biscuit.
But there is so much more in North America on the bucket list that I may not make it.
If I ever get shed of being caretaker to the elderly I am heading back to Alaska.
My first official duty when I reported there in 1985 was to go notify a family of the death of an Airman.
He died of hypothermia in 40*F rainy weather,
did the paradoxical undressing thing, was found naked on Naked Island where he was hunting deer.
Deer hunting where the brown bears live is always fun.
I would of course take good rain gear, and a .458 Winchester Magnum would be my deer rifle.
Solo for my third hunt on Kodiak would be the most fun possible with my pants on.
I once did a solo, fly-in caribou hunt for 5 days on the Alaska Peninsula in November, and flew home with 3 caribou.
I will not do the Timothy Treadwell trick until threatened with a nursing home.

Paul Matthews in his book THE PAPER JACKET, said of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:
" ... about as perfect a production chamber as there is for cast bullets, whether they are grooved lubricated, or paper patched."
The 1:14 inch twist was not noted to be detrimental with paper-patched 500-grain bullets in the .458 WM.

An interesting bit from Matthews was that his Ruger rifles with factory barrels had bore diameters of 0.4515".
He found that if he used slick bullets of 0.4520" diameter, just .0005" greater than bore diameter, in his factory Ruger rifles,
then he could use bullets of any weight or hardness when these were paper-patched to 0.459" diameter.
And he claimed they worked with charges of either BP or smokeless as slow as IMR-3031 !

Straight BP charge of 90 gr FFFg with 500-gr PP bullet fouled the throat of a .458 WinMag with one shot.
It was so bad that a second paper-patched round cannot be chambered, according to Matthews.
Duplex loading of FFg plus SR-4759 eliminated any throat-fouling problems.
Of course, adding a lube cookie with wax paper single layer on both sides of the wad will allow throat fouling to be cleared by wiping after each shot.

Mathews also says he has good results sizing down .459"-diameter grease-grooved bullets to 0.452" diameter
(using a push-through Corbin sizer die)
and then paper-patching them back up to .459" diameter !

Holy cow !
I have a .452" Lee bullet sizer !
A Lyman 457121 PH cast in soft alloy comes out of my mould at about 0.4565" diameter and weighs about 479 grains.
Surely that would not be a problem to size down to .452" and then paper-patch it.

I need to be able to make my own "slicks" for paper patching.
I have moulds for sub-bore slicks for use in the no-throaters of .40-cal. and .45-cal. BPCR persuasions.
I need a mould for the full-bore slicks needed in the .458 Winchester Magnum throats (0.450" to .452" naked slick),
or I will be sizing sown the PH to .452" for paper patching in the .458 WM+BPCR.

Serviceable 250-grain Monoflex and TSX loads at +3000 fps have been found,
but first, this duck feather tickle of a paper patch load in a .458 Winchester Magnum throat atop .45-2.6" brass,
with training wheels:







There were little specs of lube and BP on the chronograph at the end of the day,
even with 7-yard distance from muzzle.
The BP shooting was done late, with sun angle bad, clouds had rolled in,
and even turning on the accessory lights did not help.

Did I mention that there was zero lead fouling with the full-bore paper-patched load in the .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester-Throated ?
Also, the trace of BP fouling in the bore required only humidity from my blow tube and a couple of patches to make it vanish.
Dry patches then came out white.
I used two olive oil soaked patches after that to prep her for a few days rest.
Those came out of the barrel looking like when they went in.
Dry patching and a fouling shot (or ten) might get Goldie Ruger-Pedersoli ready for long range.

Now for Ms. Daisy Ruger, 9 pounds naked, add 1 pound and 3 ounces for the Nikon scope and Ruger rings,
5 ounces more for the LOP adjuster and ammo carrier, so, 10.5 pounds without ammo.
She has standard SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambered barrel with 1:14" twist, 0.459" groove diameter and 24" long:



250-gr Hornady Monoflex in .458 WM
roughly zeroed at 50-yards for MV 3075 fps,
it shoots about 2" lower when MV is 2725 fps,
with same scope settings, same 50-yard range.





250-gr Monoflex in 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WM, 67*F, there were zero chronograph errors with the smokeless loads:


H4198, 3.340" COL, F215 primer, Hornady brass:

At 3001 fps to 3075 fps MV, with BC of 0.175, 7-yard losses are huge, respectively 39 fps and 40 fps.

78.0 gr loads wasted for fouling and getting on paper, started off shooting nearly a foot high at 50 yards.

79.0 gr H4198 >>> 3001 fps MV (2962 fps instrumental): MOST UNIFORM LOAD (with either H4198 or AA-5744), extreme spread 8 fps for 3 shots.

82.0 gr H4198 >>> 3075 fps MV (3035 fps instrumental): Best accuracy with H4198, 1.16 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards.


AA-5744, 3.340" COL, F215 primer, Hornady brass:

65.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps MV (2688 fps instrumental): MOST ACCURATE LOAD (with either H4198 or AA-5744), 0.63 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards.

69.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 3003 fps MV (2964 fps instrumental): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.24 MOA


The sample with the other bullet and the midrange powder charges:

250-gr TSX FNFB, COL 3.170", F215 primer, Hornady brass, in 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WM, 67*F, BC 0.136 !

H4198 80.0 gr >>> 3017 fps MV (2966 fps instrumental, 51 fps 7-yard loss): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.10 MOA

AA5744 67.0 gr >>> 2947 fps MV (2897 fps instrumental, 50 fps 7-yard loss): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.37 MOA

I adjusted the scope to zero at 50 yards with the Monoflex @ 2725 fps MV, loaded with AA-5744 charge of 65.0 grains.
Will load the rest of the box of bullets for final zero after tinkering with the BDC reticle if Nikon Spot On still works online !
That will be a pleasant and handy load for squirrels and such.
My schnabel bauble:

The data bertzs supplied was assumed to be from 5-yard chronograph and corrected to MV.
Close enough for Crusade work.
To compare his 22 " barrel to my 24" barrel results, I also added 40 fps to his H4198 velocities for the Monoflex.
Again, close enough for Crusade work.
If the COL he used was shorter than 3.340" he might gain a little pressure and a few fps velocity advantage for same powder charge versus the longer COL,
but only a very little, due to the SAAMI .458 WM throat efficiencies, or is that just magic ?
Accuracy might be a little better with a longer COL, maybe not, since the SAAMI .458 WM throat is a great accurizer with all COLs possible.
I got out my pencil and graph paper again:



Enlarged for hopefully easier reading for old eyes:



Very close agreement.
Another big buy a donkey to beretzs for saving me some components.

Maybe the diminishing returns above 80 grains of H4198 are due to heavy compression of that powder ?
Even there I bet pressures are less than those of the .458 Lott MAP.

The 250-gr MonoFlex is a short range bullet due to rapid velocity loss and wind drift, i.e. low BC.
Speeding it up from 2725 fps to 3075 fps gains only about 50 to 60 yards of practicality.
It is very pleasant in a .458 WinMag at lower velocity and loses velocity less rapidly.
Using a 90% LR net fill with AA-5744 for 2725 fps MV makes a lot of sense to me, especially in Daisy, since she likes that load best.

With the Nikon set on 5X, the bottom aiming point on the 4-circle BDC reticle is for the 600-yard gong, which would make for excellent windage practice.
The central cross hair then hits 3" high at 100 and dead-on at 208 yards, for point and shoot a deer-sized critter to 244 yards.
1-1/3" high at 50 yards, 3" high at 100 yards, and maximum ordinate is just 3.2" high at 122 yards.
That could be useful in the woods and pastures even with a 2.5X Leupold.
That point-and-shoot range would be a good limit for this fun little bullet for pasture shooting.
The Nikon BDC has a 300-yard aiming point also, on 5X and 7X settings, which surely would be my limit for meat.
At 300 yards the bullet's velocity is 1426 fps, KE = 1128 ft-lbs, and 10 mph crosswind drift is nearly 2 feet.
DICEY !

Having finally done the 250-gr Monoflex for a special kind of "reduced load" gives me a greater appreciation of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
With +4000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, light recoil, and point-and-shoot range to 244 yards, even such a light monometal bullet would be good
when protected from the wind,
for deer shooting from tree stands,
still hunting the timber, hog culling, and even sneaky black bear over bait.

Speaking of the devil, Bob's blog has some good sneaky black bear stories, latest edition yesterday:

http://www.bigbores.ca/

I would not have thought it possible to increase my appreciation of the MAGNIFICENCE of the .458 Winchester Magnum,
but there it is.
Jacketed/monometal and hardcast bullets galore, from 250 grains to 600 grains. Really no need for more or less bullet weight, except for birdshot, snake and rat loads.
But the latter are the domain of the .458 Lott,
which King .458 Winchester Magnum laughingly concedes to the Lottites.
Where have all the Lottites gone ?
Took their toys and went home ?

What next for the .458 Winchester Magnum ?
A special heavyweight VLD .458 bullet for subsonic use with a suppressor on the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum ?
Maybe.
For sure: Make the standard SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum into the full equivalent of the .45-110 Sharps with a 550-grain paper-patched Quigley load, of course.
But I get to use a scope and duplexed BP for a super-clean, paper patch shooter to try for those 700-yard bucket shots.

Lessee ... 74 grains of GOEX FFg started by 12 grains of IMR-SR4759 from my 8-pound jug: That ought to be about a 110-grain BP equivalent.
And here is the mould from ACCURATE MOLDS, so I do not have to depend on BACO or Sir Jerry to supply the slicks:



Will request a tolerance of +.002"/-.000" on that 0.450"-diameter slick, supposed to be 550 grains in clip-on WW, should be about same in 1:20 alloy.
After patching and Rooster Jacket Lube, the bullets can be run through a .458" or .459" LEE push-through sizer as needed.
I've got a patch paper (recommended by Saint Bagwell, found at Office Depot) that is a little thicker than the 9-pound onionskin, if needed.
I'll get a 2-cavity mould, leave one cavity unmarked, and put a dimple on the ogive in the other cavity.
Then I will have two batches of slicks from that mould, cast in 1:20 tin-lead.
One batch for indexed loading in the single shot .458 WM Ruger No. 1, the other batch for non-indexed loading in the bolt actions.
COL of 3.580" will be perfect in the Winchester M70, CZ 550 Magnum AND Ruger No. 1, .458 Winchester Magnum.

Ought to be about 1400 fps MV from a 23" .458 WM barrel.
Except for the lube goobers on the chronographs, it's all good !
YEEHA!

"MODERN SMOKELESS PAPER PATCHING" by Marty Longbottom
is an article in the 19th edition (2015) of HANDLOADER'S DIGEST, pp. 170-183.
Shocking !
Use smokeless powder entirely and forget the lube cookies needed to keep BP fouling under control.
No more lube goobers on the chronographs ?

He sizes the grooved bullets down by as much as .007" and he even likes gas checked bullets done that way !

Removing lube from commercially purchased bullets: Boil them in water, drain and rinse, repeat, until they are squeeky clean.
Great tip.
You can use Blue Dawn dish detergent as the lube for sizing the over-sized grooved bullet to desired pre-patching diameter.
Then boil the soap off of them too.

Loaded with smokeless, use 100% charge of slow powder or use filler for light compression of lesser charge of smokeless powder.

Naked bullet should be bore size +.001 to +.0015".
Patched diameter should be groove size + .001" to +.003".

Alloy should be 20:1 or softer.
Velocity goal is 1800 fps to 2000 fps MV.
According to Marty.

Just another way to have some good clean fun like taking your sister to the prom.
One can still get down and dirty with BP in the .458 Winchester Magnum whenever.
Maybe Marty's smokeless parameters for alloy and bullet sizing would work even better with BP
in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat ?

One special thing I learned from Marty:
After the initial drying of the water-wetted patchs rolled onto the bullet, lube the paper jackets and size the bullets.
Keep any bullet lube off of the base of the paper patch, but lube the sides well.
Then push them through the sizer die after another period of drying of the paper jacket lube.
Let them dry base up, nose down, in a loading block.
I suppose lube on the bullet base might encourage remnants of the shredded paper to stick to base of bullet ?
He uses bees wax and vaseline mixtures for his lube, applied however he does it, not well explained.
Maybe just finger smearing or rolling ? I dunnoh.

Duck feathers !!!
I am thinking a 50:50 mixture of Rooster Jacket Lube and water, applied with a little paint brush to sides of paper jacket only.
Let that dry nose down in loading block.
Size the paper-patched bullet and put it back in a loading block nose down until ready to seat in the cartridge case.

The Bill Bagwell Memorial Load for the .458 Winchester Magnum:

Lyman 457121 "Parker Hale" FN plain base cast in 50:50 WW/Pb is about .4565" diameter and 479.2 grains.

This can be sized down and paper-patched up for use with either duplexed GOEX FFg or smokeless,
both of which should make for some good clean fun with the SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" maximum COL.